Punctured engine block

[last1left]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

I am a bit curious why you hanged on to your M3 for all these years and at the same time been quite vocal about blown engines. Is it because of lost value that makes selling it an unnatractive option which i understand or because the thrill is worth the engine concerns to you ?

Good question.

[GP0256]

Originally Posted by 8k4

Where is that lawsuit?

We need a resident expert Actuary on this site who can run some numbers to truly tell whether it is better for BMW N.A. to put a pre-emotive fix in place and refund so many people VS tempt fate of a class action! The never ending debate!!!

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by GP0256

We need a resident expert Actuary on this site who can run some numbers to truly tell whether it is better for BMW N.A. to put a pre-emotive fix in place and refund so many people VS tempt fate of a class action! The never ending debate!!!

BMW has sofar also escaped the oil burning lawsuit CAL that lead to big settlements for Honda, Toyota, Audi even though BMW is listed as one of the top offenders by the Consumer advocacy group with multiple affected models.

The S65 engine issues if it were a regular series model would already have lead to legal action, but the small number of M3 produced compared to regular series means less people that can join a CAL.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

I am a bit curious why you hanged on to your M3 for all these years and at the same time been quite vocal about blown engines. Is it because of lost value that makes selling it an unnatractive option which i understand or because the thrill is worth the engine concerns to you ?

Long story in short..

Back in time...I already knew from day 1 about the BMW bearing problem .
Before I bought my car , the brother from my aunt drove with a brand new alpine white ///M6 limited edition competition with build nr.
I loved his car and the sound of the S85 V10 . He babied the car and drove only in nice warm weather and warmed up his S85 always carefully !
But after 14 months he got bearing failure with only 8K miles on it , while he drove 130 km/h on the Belgian highway ..

His S85 was replaced by BMW under warranty . But he sold the car ASAP with 50% loss..
I knew our S65 is actually the same engine as the S85 , but with - 2 cylinders .So a few years later I bought my car with the S65 with the V8 because the S85 with the V10 engine had really insane Belgian taxes !
From my S65 knowledge , I knew we saw S65's with 200K+ miles on it as well !

And I know the S65 and S85 engine is actually a German lottery with winners and losers .
And I truly hope for all of us , we have only winners . But often we see and hear the opposite .

Meanwhile I keep and love my car and hope for the best for my S65 . But somewhere in the future I dream of a Turbo-S .

[Ggeezer]

Originally Posted by GP0256

We need a resident expert Actuary on this site who can run some numbers to truly tell whether it is better for BMW N.A. to put a pre-emotive fix in place and refund so many people VS tempt fate of a class action! The never ending debate!!!

As an actuary, I can tell you that BMW didn?t provide a fix because the fix would have been much more expensive than fixing whatever engines needed repair. Almost all E92s are out of warranty and the global failure rate due to rod bearings (on a completely stock engine) is probably within BMW?s tolerance.

Another reason they didn?t provide any fixes is that this is not really a safety issue. Had it been safety related (DCT, tires cracking, battery terminal), you would bet your asses they would have sent out a recall notice.

BMW warrants any part that fails for the first 4 years or 50,000mi (80,000km). At any point beyond that (again, not a safety issue), it is the customer?s responsibility to repair/replace broken parts. BMW probably deemed the failure rate for the first 50k mi to be acceptable.

The used car market will determine the discount for potential rod bearing issues on higher mileage cars out of warranty. But on the flip side, what other 400+hp cars can we think of that rev to 8k+ for $30k? Even with potential rod bearing issues, $30k for an E92 M3 is a bargain - that?s less than brand new 320i money.

[GP0256]

Originally Posted by Ggeezer

As an actuary, I can tell you that BMW didn?t provide a fix because the fix would have been much more expensive than fixing whatever engines needed repair. Almost all E92s are out of warranty and the global failure rate due to rod bearings (on a completely stock engine) is probably within BMW?s tolerance.

Another reason they didn?t provide any fixes is that this is not really a safety issue. Had it been safety related (DCT, tires cracking, battery terminal), you would bet your asses they would have sent out a recall notice.

BMW warrants any part that fails for the first 4 years or 50,000mi (80,000km). At any point beyond that (again, not a safety issue), it is the customer?s responsibility to repair/replace broken parts. BMW probably deemed the failure rate for the first 50k mi to be acceptable.

The used car market will determine the discount for potential rod bearing issues on higher mileage cars out of warranty. But on the flip side, what other 400+hp cars can we think of that rev to 8k+ for $30k? Even with potential rod bearing issues, $30k for an E92 M3 is a bargain - that?s less than brand new 320i money.

I agree. The biggest problem is many people really drove their cars hard and any high performance engine, like the ones we have, which could potentially be driven hard, at the track, etc. are going to have failures. You are also right about it not being a safety issue! Thanks for chiming in

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by GP0256

I agree. The biggest problem is many people really drove their cars hard and any high performance engine, like the ones we have, which could potentially be driven hard, at the track, etc. are going to have failures. You are also right about it not being a safety issue! Thanks for chiming in

What ? Bearing failure is not a safety issue ? Are you serious ?

This ///M3 had an accident on the German autobahn while it drove 220 km/h !
Suddenly the S65 blew ! Cause was a S65 bearing failure !

The M3 driver was injured ! He could have died in this accident and his car was totaled !

=> http://www.infranken.de/regional/hof...43#no_accepted

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by yeah_knee

So as some of you know, purchased a used 2008 bmw m3 with 110k miles. After 4 days of driving it, engine blew.... ends up being that a rod punctured the engine block... took it back to the dealership I bought it from and were weighing options. Trying to see if bmw of America can do anything... if not, looks like we have to swap the engine with a used one

I'm here to share my sadness with you guys

Haha

Is there a drivetrain warranty required for used car dealer sales, in your state? I think when I bought my car here in CA it was a 30 day drivetrain warranty, no deductible from the dealer.

[GP0256]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

What ? Bearing failure is not a safety issue ? Are you serious ?

This ///M3 had an accident on the German autobahn while it drove 220 km/h !
Suddenly the S65 blew ! Cause was a S65 bearing failure !

The M3 driver was injured ! He could have died in this accident and his car was totaled !

=> http://www.infranken.de/regional/hof...43#no_accepted

Of all of the engine failures, there are extremely few that ended like that one. Not a large sample size to make a case for a class action, that is for sure. And at 136MPH, they were hardly driving at low RPM's and at a safe speed.

[Adziu16]

136 mph isn’t even the fastest the M3 can go since they can hit over 160 for sure and then you’re at it’s peak point. So something must’ve caused it where the engine could’ve been at the highest rpm in a certain gear and caused too much stress on the S65 causing it to blow and destroy the car. Man BMW really needs to take responsibility for their mistakes. We understand no one is perfect but at least take action to improve your customer service to get more sales. Only part I can understand is if some idiot really decided to go balls out and not take care of their car and have it end up in pieces which is their responsibility but people who buy these cars to enjoy them shouldn’t suffer for a manufacturer’s mistake. As they say you gotta spend money to make money. Business logic. I’m in process of narrowing down my 2 car choices next and reading up on these issues kind of worries me about getting E92 M3 next. Sounds great, fun to drive, but is it worth the money for repairs it shouldn’t need?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by GP0256

Of all of the engine failures, there are extremely few that ended like that one. Not a large sample size to make a case for a class action, that is for sure. And at 136MPH, they were hardly driving at low RPM's and at a safe speed.

M's are made to be driven fast . The problem with the S65 and S85 is that it can blow at anytime .
On the German autobahn 136MPH is actually not really fast ..
The risk is always there ,people can die by BMW's mistake and that's the problem .

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

M's are made to be driven fast . The problem with the S65 and S85 is that it can blow at anytime .
On the German autobahn 136MPH is actually not really fast ..
The risk is always there ,people can die by BMW's mistake and that's the problem .

Bearings are still not a safety item. A hood emblem coming off at 136mph could become a "safety item" if it hits a driver's windshield. There have probably been extenuating circumstances where failure of any part of a car caused a secondary safety concern somewhere in the world at some point. That doesn't mean that every part on the car could suddenly become a safety component when it suits someone's case.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Bearings are still not a safety item. A hood emblem coming off at 136mph could become a "safety item" if it hits a driver's windshield. There have probably been extenuating circumstances where failure of any part of a car caused a secondary safety concern somewhere in the world at some point. That doesn't mean that every part on the car could suddenly become a safety component when it suits someone's case.

Can you imagine the impact when your engine blows at + 200km/u ?
Lives are at risk in such a situation ! And not only the drivers life but also the passengers in the car ...
On this forum is a German member , his S65 blew twice and once at high speed . He was more than a week in shock by the accident !
He said he was very lucky !

Are you sure you can still handle your car and keep it in a straight line on the highway when it blows at that speed ?
You know that actually 2 other cars were involved in the German accident !
So , such a situation can put in traffic also other drivers lives in danger ..

How can you compaire a hood emblem with a S65 that blows at high speed ?
Must be a joke..

From the moment when a situation can kill someone it becomes for 100% a safety compenent !

[Adziu16]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Can you imagine the impact when your engine blows at + 200km/u ?
Lives are at risk in such a situation ! And not only the drivers life but also the passengers in the car ...
On this forum is a German member , his S65 blew twice and once at high speed . He was more than a week in shock by the accident !
He said he was very lucky !

Are you sure you can still handle your car and keep it in a straight line on the highway when it blows at that speed ?
You know that actually 2 other cars were involved in the German accident !
So , such a situation can put in traffic also other drivers lives in danger ..

How can you compaire a hood emblem with a S65 that blows at high speed ?
Must be a joke..

From the moment when a situation can kill someone it becomes for 100% a safety compenent !

Completely agree with you on that one. Your car locks up on you and you have limited to almost no control, that becomes a safety issue. Bmw emblem can fly off all I care because that almost about anybody can replace themselves. It’s common sense

[Rajmun340]

M Power-Belgium is absolutely right, it is a safety issue. How many people died from the takata airbag ? only a few, 99.99[9]..% of deployments resulted in no injury, but it's still a safety issue.
Furthermore the reasoning higher above that bmw must have decided to dodge it based on estimated expected engines blow up until the last car goes out of warranty completely ignores that a safety issue has no expiration date. BMW remains fully liable for every risk of or actual injury or death caused by their flawed engine design that they decided to do nothing about. if a CAL hits them and condemns them all the profit they made on produced M3's won't even be enough to cover their settlement cost. If the automobile industry were a cut throat industry, competitors could provide the necessary technical expertise in a court of law to tilt the balance against bmw and make them loose the case.

[srmast1]

The thing with these cars is that supercharging them is/was so popular, and at this point we know that puts unhealthy stress on an engine never meant for forced induction. So buying a high mileage one is dangerous because how would the buyer know what the car has been through? I could see someone tracking the shit out of their supercharged, straight piped aggressively tuned e9x for 75k miles or so and then return it to stock and sell it and no one is the wiser. The ppi will not look at bearings so just tell tale physical signs on the outside can hint to its previous mods, but how would anybody ever know? Then the s65 is an expensive engine. So add unknown power mods and potential physical abuse(hard driving/tracking) to the chances of the s65 bearing failure lottery and then re-assess buying a high milage e9x unless you really know it's history. Unfortunately though, this also happens with lower milage cars as well. It really is a lottery...of unpleasantness.

[EnVe46]

If you're buying a used M car, or any high performance car for that matter, you have to expect some type hard driving or "abuse" as that's what they were made for. I guess I don't understand why people buy these cars expecting or wishing they were mint and not driven hard. Buy it new then or spend 40k+ on a low mileage one and have no guarantee that the bearings aren't still an issue. Supercharged or not, tuned or not, issue still remains. Walk in and buy one of these cars knowing the issues and prepare, or don't buy it all. It's quite simple. No need to bitch/complain when failure happens.

[Adziu16]

Originally Posted by EnVe46

If you're buying a used M car, or any high performance car for that matter, you have to expect some type hard driving or "abuse" as that's what they were made for. I guess I don't understand why people buy these cars expecting or wishing they were mint and not driven hard. Buy it new then or spend 40k+ on a low mileage one and have no guarantee that the bearings aren't still an issue. Supercharged or not, tuned or not, issue still remains. Walk in and buy one of these cars knowing the issues and prepare, or don't buy it all. It's quite simple. No need to bitch/complain when failure happens.

Well that’s one good way to explain it

[deansbimmer]

It seems nobody is taking the time to understand my statement before jumping to the more obvious conclusions. I know bearings are an emotional subject for many but sometimes I like to have some fun and interject some opposing logic into some threads that need it...

Of course an engine locking up at 136mph could result in a dangerous situation. There are millions of vehicular possibilities that could result in a deadly situation. As my hyperbolic example made note- an emblem flying off at 136mph could also result in a dangerous situation. Or choose any of a thousand other parts on a car that could potentially hurt you if they fail.

-Airbag = safety item
-Seat belt = safety item
-Tail lights, head lights, bumpers, tires... = safety items.

-Shift knob, Radiator, Cylinder head, Engine bearings = not safety items, though any if failed in a certain way or time could present a hazardous or even deadly situation. Safety items are the components classified as parts required to provide the safe operation of a motor vehicle and are classified as such by the Department of Motor Vehicles. Not that I disagree that an engine locking up at high speed could present a safety concern, but and engine dying at high speed should usually result in the driver coasting to a safe stopping place. I posted in response to a suggestion that bearings should be classified as a safety component, which I simply asserted is not realistic and likely never to happen even if lawyers spent millions of dollars trying to convince otherwise.

Anyone remember that show on TV "1000 ways to die?"
Maybe we can find "Death by rogue cigarette lighter at 150mph!"

*disclaimer* Some of this is tongue in cheek, don't take it so seriously.

[pbonsalb]

If motors are failing, they can lock up and cause an accident. At least 100 have failed. I don't think the hood emblem is a good analogy but if 100 fenders have come loose and at least a few flown off on the highway, and many others inspected and found to be close to flying off, that would be a good analogy. I think the internal engine problem is a safety issue. What happened in the one public case is hardly a freak accident given all the other failures. I think it is a risk for any E9xM3. I have made an effort to to minimize that risk in my M3 and will continue to do so -- I replaced the rod bearings a few years ago and will probably replace the main bearings and rod bearings in a few more years.

[yeah_knee]

Looking towards the future ... you guys think the e92 m3 will hold some nice value? I know the e46 m3s have gone up recently

[IB M]

Originally Posted by k3silk

Known issue with our cars 2008-2013 get the red bearing fix costing anywhere from 2000-3000 and you are all set. Unfortunately for you it destroyed the engine before you got a chance to take care of this. Hopefully BMW NA can Goodwill or help out with some of the cost.

The replacement bearings with updated tolerances allowing for more oil ... is that a once and done fix? Is it established at this point that the fix really does eliminate or nearly eliminate the failure risk?