How do I learn how to drive my M4 properly on a track?

[dnyc]

Go to a local go-karting track to get your feet wet. Talk to their instructors for insight. Start with learning the basics of car control, balance, reference points and racing lines. It's a reasonably low risk and inexpensive path to help familiarize yourself with a real world track environment.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by dnyc

Go to a local go-karting track to get your feet wet. Talk to their instructors for insight. Start with learning the basics of car control, balance, reference points and racing lines. It's a reasonably low risk and inexpensive path to help familiarize yourself with a real world track environment.

I will have to disagree on you with that one. Go karts are raced completely differently from cars. I remember the last time I was out go karting the owner of the track and I had a chat about it. He said that go karts are not the same as cars and in a go kart you brake early and then floor it through the turn. Even in a hairpin

[m4pewpew]

You learn the same fundamentals in pretty much every type of auto-racing you do that involves corners: look ahead, slow-in, fast out, be smooth, execute your line, car control, sensing speed and traction, the mentality, etc, etc. If you're solid on those, no matter how different the car is (a shifter kart, a FWD Honda, a low HP miata, a Corvette Z06, a BMW M3), skills will transfer, and you're going to figure out pretty quickly on your own.

my two cents :-)

[modkrazy]

I agree the new car may not be the best car to learn how to drive on the track. That torque wall paired to a twitchy throttle will be a barrier, or will require running with DSC on all the time, which is intrusive on the new car even in street driving. I feel it would steal a lot of the fun, but I also didn't enjoy the GTR. I mean, it was fun, but not as fun as wrestling the car under control. So YMMV.

From what some F8X folks here are saying, the entire E9X forum is on suicide watch and taking any offer you give them on their cars. Grab an old E9x as your beater track car.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

I agree the new car may not be the best car to learn how to drive on the track. That torque wall paired to a twitchy throttle will be a barrier, or will require running with DSC on all the time, which is intrusive on the new car even in street driving. I feel it would steal a lot of the fun, but I also didn't enjoy the GTR. I mean, it was fun, but not as fun as wrestling the car under control. So YMMV.

From what some F8X folks here are saying, the entire E9X forum is on suicide watch and taking any offer you give them on their cars. Grab an old E9x as your beater track car.

I'll sell him my 2006 E46 M3 after my M4 gets here. It makes a great track car.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

I'll sell him my 2006 E46 M3 after my M4 gets here. It makes a great track car.

Ain't nobody gonna sell me nuttin ok? My F82 will be my only track car forever!!!!!!!!

[Reid]

I also believe everyone should start off at autocross to learn how to handle a car at and beyond the limit. The only way to find the limit of adhesion is to go past it, and this is much easier to deal with at a lower speed.

I also agree that purchasing a cheap car with working brakes is a great idea for a novice who is truly interested in learning to become a better driver on a road course. The running costs are cheaper and the car will be less of a loss when/if it is put into a tire wall someday.

Originally Posted by imserious

For me that means using my daily driver and building up speed gradually. I'm not going to be doing 10/10ths anytime soon.

I was always told that if you cannot afford to drive your car into a lake, do not drive it on the track.

At the track, I always wonder what the guy who is busy applying blue tape to his entire car would do if he were to total his car.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

Ain't nobody gonna sell me nuttin ok? My F82 will be my only track car forever!!!!!!!!

In your case, you should probably learn how to properly operate a manual first (no, grinding, jerking synchros are not part of "racecar sound!").

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

In your case, you should probably learn how to properly operate a manual first (no, grinding, jerking synchros are not part of "racecar sound!").

Oh be quiet with your heel-toe stories!!!!!! I have auto rev matching now!!!!!!!

Quit beatin' a dead horse!!!

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

Oh be quiet with your heel-toe stories!!!!!! I have auto rev matching now!!!!!!!

Quit beatin' a dead horse!!!

Ah, but you don't have the feature in Sports Plus, which is the mode with the least turbo lag.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

Ah, but you don't have the feature in Sports Plus, which is the mode with the least turbo lag.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

Ow, wow, nevermind.

[stressdoc]

My first thought is, damn, you are from Montreal. You know snow. You may share genes with Gilles.

I think it is really helpful to have experience from an early age on slippery surfaces. For me that was ice, snow, gravel.

I learn by falling, by spinning out, by 'failure'. Trying to develop a refined feel for that razor's edge where physics is still on your side.

I don't feel comfortable exploring the limits in a new, expensive (for me) car that I need as my daily workhorse. That said, I had no problem amping my 335 up to >250 kph on the autobahn, or sliding around corners going up the Timmelsjoch chasing motorcycles, all with my son riding shotgun. It is a very competent car. No doubt the M3 much more so.


I think it's worth trying to understand why one is motivated to go fast on a track in a new M3 rather than a beaten up Miata.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

My first thought is, damn, you are from Montreal. You know snow. You may share genes with Gilles.

I think it is really helpful to have experience from an early age on slippery surfaces. For me that was ice, snow, gravel.

I learn by falling, by spinning out, by 'failure'. Trying to develop a refined feel for that razor's edge where physics is still on your side.

I don't feel comfortable exploring the limits in a new, expensive (for me) car that I need as my daily workhorse. That said, I had no problem amping my 335 up to >250 kph on the autobahn, or sliding around corners going up the Timmelsjoch chasing motorcycles, all with my son riding shotgun. It is a very competent car. No doubt the M3 much more so.


I think it's worth trying to understand why one is motivated to go fast on a track in a new M3 rather than a beaten up Miata.

I grew up in Montreal and I learned how to drive in Montreal. I also spent 12 years driving in Montreal before I left for greener, warmer pastures so believe you me I know slick, slip and skid. I also know how to drive in those conditions, as did Gilles when he raced his snowmobiles. I have no problems with those conditions, my problem with driving a car on a track is that I am too cautious, and I will be WAY slower than everybody else BECAUSE I'm so cautious. I brake VERY early and I drive VERY slowly through turns accelerating VERY late in the apex. It was so embarrassing for me last winter when I paid $300 to drive a Ferrari for 3 laps at one of Austin's local race tracks, the Harris Hills Raceway. I was given a fuken 458 Italia to drive, that thing is a fuken BEAST and was the fastest car on the track that day save for the GT-R maybe. Well I took off in the last position from a pool of about 10 cars and I never saw the car in front of me after the first turn. I was so mad because just as I was starting to get comfortable in the car I had to get out and let the next person drive it. Here I was in this racing machine and I couldn't even keep up with the piece of shit C7 in front of me. This is why I started this post. How do I get there? How do I know when to brake, for how long and when to accelerate again? It is these techniques that I wish to learn. I know them very will on all my F1 games for PS3, I know every F1 track in every game I know what meter marker to start braking at, how much gas to give, when to glide, everything because I raced so many times it comes naturally. I also know the car's limits. Now I want to have that same level of comfort in MY REAL car not in some simulated video game.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

This is why I started this post. How do I get there? How do I know when to brake, for how long and when to accelerate again? It is these techniques that I wish to learn.

I think it is so commendable that you can admit to yourself (and here) of your weaknesses in terms of driving. Actually the more commendable part is recognizing them in the first place, many have problems with this.

IMHO, what you are asking is the actual purpose of track days, pure and simple. And I think, and hope, that one of the reasons (maybe not the first one though) in purchasing an ///M car is that you can have comfortable and fun daily driver, while you can also participate in occasional track days to improve your driving, and to better recognize the abilities/weaknesses of your own car, which will ultimately lead to happier ownership. Although I do not have direct experience with ///M cars, I have been in several students' cars, and frankly they need very little to nothing to be able to enjoy the car on track. They are not perfect and they won't break track records, but that is not the purpose for you at this stage, is it?

Contrary to few opinions written here, I personally do not understand people who are able to justify dedicated track cars; I think it defeats the purpose of track days. If one has the objective of racing eventually, club or other levels, and wants to build a race car, practice/tune during track days, yes that makes a lot of sense. However, if you are someone like me, who does not care much about lap times, being faster or slower than others, etc., but wants to have some fun with your own car, while learning and improving my driving technique then simple track days are easy, cost-effective and fits the bill perfectly.

To learn all the things you wrote, and I have to admit it is a never-ending learning process, just do simple maintenance on the car, may be change your brake pads and fluid, and go learn from experienced track day drivers (instructors) while having fun behind the wheel of your beloved vehicle.

In terms of risk of damage or worse, yes they do exist and are more frequent than we'd like to admit to ourselves, they are no where near the level of risk of driving on any road/street/interstate. Just get proper insurance (adds 2-sec/lap level of confidence ) and focus on learning rather than being fast. I view track driving as a puzzle and solving the puzzle piece by piece is tremendously enjoyable, once I solve it the fun goes away.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think it is so commendable that you can admit to yourself (and here) of your weaknesses in terms of driving. Actually the more commendable part is recognizing them in the first place, many have problems with this.

IMHO, what you are asking is the actual purpose of track days, pure and simple. And I think, and hope, that one of the reasons (maybe not the first one though) in purchasing an ///M car is that you can have comfortable and fun daily driver, while you can also participate in occasional track days to improve your driving, and to better recognize the abilities/weaknesses of your own car, which will ultimately lead to happier ownership. Although I do not have direct experience with ///M cars, I have been in several students' cars, and frankly they need very little to nothing to be able to enjoy the car on track. They are not perfect and they won't break track records, but that is not the purpose for you at this stage, is it?

Contrary to few opinions written here, I personally do not understand people who are able to justify dedicated track cars; I think it defeats the purpose of track days. If one has the objective of racing eventually, club or other levels, and wants to build a race car, practice/tune during track days, yes that makes a lot of sense. However, if you are someone like me, who does not care much about lap times, being faster or slower than others, etc., but wants to have some fun with your own car, while learning and improving my driving technique then simple track days are easy, cost-effective and fits the bill perfectly.

To learn all the things you wrote, and I have to admit it is a never-ending learning process, just do simple maintenance on the car, may be change your brake pads and fluid, and go learn from experienced track day drivers (instructors) while having fun behind the wheel of your beloved vehicle.

In terms of risk of damage or worse, yes they do exist and are more frequent than we'd like to admit to ourselves, they are no where near the level of risk of driving on any road/street/interstate. Just get proper insurance (adds 2-sec/lap level of confidence ) and focus on learning rather than being fast. I view track driving as a puzzle and solving the puzzle piece by piece is tremendously enjoyable, once I solve it the fun goes away.

Great post!!! Just the epitomy of what HPDEs are all about and why an HPDE is NOT a club race and never should or will be. Thanks.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

I grew up in Montreal and I learned how to drive in Montreal. I also spent 12 years driving in Montreal before I left for greener, warmer pastures so believe you me I know slick, slip and skid. I also know how to drive in those conditions, as did Gilles when he raced his snowmobiles. I have no problems with those conditions, my problem with driving a car on a track is that I am too cautious, and I will be WAY slower than everybody else BECAUSE I'm so cautious. I brake VERY early and I drive VERY slowly through turns accelerating VERY late in the apex. It was so embarrassing for me last winter when I paid $300 to drive a Ferrari for 3 laps at one of Austin's local race tracks, the Harris Hills Raceway. I was given a fuken 458 Italia to drive, that thing is a fuken BEAST and was the fastest car on the track that day save for the GT-R maybe. Well I took off in the last position from a pool of about 10 cars and I never saw the car in front of me after the first turn. I was so mad because just as I was starting to get comfortable in the car I had to get out and let the next person drive it. Here I was in this racing machine and I couldn't even keep up with the piece of shit C7 in front of me. This is why I started this post. How do I get there? How do I know when to brake, for how long and when to accelerate again? It is these techniques that I wish to learn. I know them very will on all my F1 games for PS3, I know every F1 track in every game I know what meter marker to start braking at, how much gas to give, when to glide, everything because I raced so many times it comes naturally. I also know the car's limits. Now I want to have that same level of comfort in MY REAL car not in some simulated video game.

All I can say is that it just takes seat time to get more comfortable. Even in the PS3 game (which really doesn't have any carryover BTW), I'm sure you weren't the fastest when you raced on a particular track for the first time. It takes time to learn the limits of the car, which in the case of Ferrari and BMW M4 are a lot further than you can comprehend at this point. I would suggest everytime you go out try to perfect just a few turns on the track (braking later, late apexing, etc.). Each time you go out add a few more turns until eventually you'll have the whole track down pretty well.

I would say you have a good start with your no-ego attitude, willingness to learn, and cautiousness. It seems like guys with big egos don't fair very well initially at the track. I was pretty cautious like you when I started out in my E60 M5. I went out with an instructor the first few times and actually felt nauseous after about 15 minutes (from the extreme motion and stress probably?). Here I am in a 500hp "super car" and yet I had mini Coopers and Miatas constantly up my ass needing to pass me because I was too slow on the turns!

My only point about getting a dedicated track car was that you could approach its limits sooner than you'll be able to in the M4. If you're set on staying with the M4 its totally cool. Just don't do any mods that will affect the warranty and have fun. When is your first track day?

[schmitzna]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Great post!!! Just the epitomy of what HPDEs are all about and why an HPDE is NOT a club race and never should or will be. Thanks.

I agree totally. I bought a new Corvette in 2006, started autocrossing it in 2008 and learned a ton about driving. Then I started tracking and time trialing it and won class championships in 2010 and 2011.

Will I track my 2015 M3? I have the Corvette for track days, but yes I will at least once. Will my objectives on track be the same behind the wheel of the M3 as with the C6? Of course not. The point of taking the M3 to the track is to explore what that car can do beyond the limitations of the streets.

I think that's what most people who are interested in HPDE are looking for. Doing something with their car that you can't do on the street.

I know lots of guys with self control that can do that forever. Buy a helmet and high temp brake pads and you are good to go.

An autocross where you can ride while instructors drive and not lose one of your runs is the best way to learn car control. See how to do it right and try to emulate it. Investing one day of your time before your first HPDE is worthwhile.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

All I can say is that it just takes seat time to get more comfortable. Even in the PS3 game (which really doesn't have any carryover BTW), I'm sure you weren't the fastest when you raced on a particular track for the first time. It takes time to learn the limits of the car, which in the case of Ferrari and BMW M4 are a lot further than you can comprehend at this point. I would suggest everytime you go out try to perfect just a few turns on the track (braking later, late apexing, etc.). Each time you go out add a few more turns until eventually you'll have the whole track down pretty well.

I would say you have a good start with your no-ego attitude, willingness to learn, and cautiousness. It seems like guys with big egos don't fair very well initially at the track. I was pretty cautious like you when I started out in my E60 M5. I went out with an instructor the first few times and actually felt nauseous after about 15 minutes (from the extreme motion and stress probably?). Here I am in a 500hp "super car" and yet I had mini Coopers and Miatas constantly up my ass needing to pass me because I was too slow on the turns!

My only point about getting a dedicated track car was that you could approach its limits sooner than you'll be able to in the M4. If you're set on staying with the M4 its totally cool. Just don't do any mods that will affect the warranty and have fun. When is your first track day?

My first track day will be when @gmcconn535 tells me the schedule has been announced for COTA race weekend in Austin

[zosoboogie]

Originally Posted by sspyrops

I want to learn how to drive properly to be able to drive at COTA, I don't want to learn at COTA, that's my whole point!! Our event at COTA is in March of 2015 and I want to be ready for it...

Don't learn at COTA for your first time its a hard technical track. That was my mistake I jumped into Sebring for my first time and I toasted my BBKs to the steel of the pad... Bad Idea..
After that my instructor advised and I started with Autocross and then I did some car control clinics... I got track day insurance as well... then did a performance driving school...then signed up with Chin Motorsports and did Sebring 5 times and Homestead Miami twice and the HOLY Grail of tracks, SIX laps on the Nurburgring in Sept 2012...I had Daytona on my schedule but sold my ride before I made it there. When I get my M4 I am planning minimal performance mods and many track days COTA and laguna seca are on that list.

[zosoboogie]

Originally Posted by karussell

to be honest if you seriously want to learn to truly drive a car with confidence then you must start with one that has no power. you have to learn to drive it at 10/10ths precisely and consistently because it will punish you with horrific embarrassing acceleration ( complete lack thereof) if you botch up your line or inputs. on the corollary there is not much more satisfaction than zipping by someone in a fancy big hp car with your hamster powered antique. make a slow car fast. its the only way to truly learn.
other benefits using this method is the car you learn in will likely be for lack of a better word, disposable. just make it as safe as possible and reliable. (cage it and new brakes including calipers/master cylinder). you will push so much more than worrying about your $70K baby. it is a rare and special freedom when you can push a car to its absolute limits and slightly beyond.

for autocross or hpde pick an instructor with the most underpowered car. E30's 2002's. miata drivers. they don't have time to bullshit with technique. their shit works or they won't be out there instructing others.

I agree with lups. another alternative is to learn to drive in finland. thats pretty much how everyone learns. underpowered car with usually no traction but they still gotta get where they need to go. so its a nation of rally drivers. god bless them and kimi raikkonen.

100% concur

[03///m3]

I recommend taking a skip barber driving school course. Then if you like it you can progress to their racing school.