Tuning the F8x

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Well I hope when this alpha is on by the end of the week its not going to blow up on me I'm to an m6 with CP if it does

Like I said, your not getting the tune that's on his car. Your alpha tune should be terrific, but not as powerful. Just look at ASAP's post above.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Like I said, your not getting the tune that's on his car. Your alpha tune should be terrific, but not as powerful. Just look at ASAP's post above.

Eh unless thats first hand insider info which I doubt anyone would post... I have my reservations. Still nobody really knows this engine yet.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

So dramatic.

realistic perhaps?

This discussion is over the moment I see a fully unlocked ECU...

[JRV]

Originally Posted by ASAP

realistic perhaps?

This discussion is over the moment I see a fully unlocked ECU...

Nah man you pretty much nailed it...until ECU is broken into it's limited. Some just won't accept it and I still see some random talk about bigger turbos...sigh. Your post about Terry makes sense when I checked the latest on N54tech...it hasn't budged from page 16 lol.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

realistic perhaps?

This discussion is over the moment I see a fully unlocked ECU...

From the horses mouth:
"Fuel pressure seems OK. Just fuel trim limitations within the DME. It has an interesting new behavior too. When trims max out instead of going very lean it actually goes very rich, like 10:1, and starts misfiring."


Let's not make it sound so much worse than reality, just saying. And you never specified a "fully unlocked ECU"....

You said "To go further than you see Burger doing would require decoding and unlocking the ECU via a flash. No one has done this and probably no one will. 530-540 rwhp will be it for this car for years until someone does a turbo upgrade."

I promise I am not trying to be a douche. I think we all are skeptical (me included), but also optimistic for the people who really know what they're doing. I will also note that Terry has said that he does think that E30 will most likely be the maximum they recommend, so your guesses on power levels are totally realistic unless many hard parts begin being changed out.

My major point is, let's not be debbie downers

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by JRV

Nah man you pretty much nailed it...until ECU is broken into it's limited. Some just won't accept it and I still see some random talk about bigger turbos...sigh. Your post about Terry makes sense when I checked the latest on N54tech...it hasn't budged from page 16 lol.

Don't you think it hasn't budged since he sent out the alpha test harnesses and is now going to be processing data and real-life impressions?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

Don't you think it hasn't budged since he sent out the alpha test harnesses and is now going to be processing data and real-life impressions?

Yea I mean that's the next logical step. Get feedback and impressions. Does he make sure it stays offline?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

From the horses mouth:
"Fuel pressure seems OK. Just fuel trim limitations within the DME. It has an interesting new behavior too. When trims max out instead of going very lean it actually goes very rich, like 10:1, and starts misfiring."

k dude

Let's not make it sound so much worse than reality, just saying. And you never specified a "fully unlocked ECU"....

You said "To go further than you see Burger doing would require decoding and unlocking the ECU via a flash. No one has done this and probably no one will. 530-540 rwhp will be it for this car for years until someone does a turbo upgrade."

How else are you wanting the flashes to take things to the next level? Are you expecting something as simple as what the M5 / M6 has to be a game changer? If that's what these flash tuners are doing, then I am already out of this convo. Please don't joke around.

I promise I am not trying to be a douche. I think we all are skeptical (me included), but also optimistic for the people who really know what they're doing. I will also note that Terry has said that he does think that E30 will most likely be the maximum they recommend, so your guesses on power levels are totally realistic unless many hard parts begin being changed out.

My major point is, let's not be debbie downers

You aren't being a douche at all, I am a pro at internet lingo. I simply thing that you are misinformed. The climax of Terry's tuning was done in a week and that is because that was the simple stuff. The N54 was identical in that regard so it was easy to transfer all that info first hand. The hard part was what took the N54, the next 3 years. If you think that a more modern ECU with encryption on a different level, is somehow gonna be quick... I just think that you are misinformed.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I could be misinformed, but I think we will see some things coming down the pipe sooner than years from now.

But as of now, all we have is speculation. I will be up in LA with a couple players for a meeting on Friday and will know a little more then. Hopefully there is good news all around.

[spool twice]

FWIW... on the other forum, the owner of the forum has been informed by a known vendor that the ECU has been cracked and there is someone BETA testing it. . so, look for it to be released after testing is completed.

Tuning is moving along at a quick pace. Even Tony@Vargas has oem turbos on order to develop upgrades

I actually think S55 HP levels may exceed S63 HP levels soon since the ECU has been unlocked

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

He might, but....Terry is known to push the absolute limits. Look, he's my bud and we race each other all the time and every now and then he blows something up whether it's an engine or trans and just gets it fixed. He does all this R&D to build a better product and it obviously works. But his cars are always faster than his customers cars because he pushes the absolute limit on his. How many other M5's are at 670 wheel with just a tune?

Maybe with pure 100% meth and a higher concentration of e85 he will get some more power out of his F80. But seriously who besides Terry is going to do this? Terry may never release anything as powerful as his test cars to the general public. Why? Because Terry knows that he needs to build in a margin of safety on the products he releases.

There is more power to be had once the backend flashes are available. Also, exhaust and downpipe modifications haven't been studied. Same with the AWIC. The only thing that has been decently explored in this early stage is power potential with stock hardware. We are still very, very early in the development of the S55. Also, the S55's turbos are much, MUCH more amenable to machined turbo upgrades than the tiny little N54 units. The exhaust housings were the restrictions before, and now they are substantially larger. The hardware all around is also optimized for higher flow and bigger equipment. The housings are now sufficiently large that we should see really cool machined turbo offerings in the relatively near future.

Originally Posted by ASAP

Everything else aside, terry started having massive issues the moment he crossed 540 WHP. Misfires, engine going super rich and so forth. The only way to fully see what's going on there will be a fully re engineered ECU that allows you to see the fueling tables etc. It was the same problem on the N54 as well, the only other options were running larger turbos with meth and no flash but back then you couldn't do the things you could do after the cobb ap was released.

You are a drama queen. There were no "massive" issues. He ran into some misfires at 28 freakin' psi of boost. Not really unsurprising given the early development and amount of boost being run. It is also clear that you are a newb when you talk about the car running rich. This happens because the ECU was hitting its max fuel trim, and instead of giving up and running lean like the N54s did because the fueling hardware was maxed out, it actually does just the opposite and runs rich. This means that there is a substantial amount of fueling left for even more power once the purely software limitation of fueling is addressed in the near future.

Also, do you even know what are you talking about? "Fully re-engineered ECU." What does that even mean? ROM hacks with new routines, or just basic table discovery? Table discovery isn't that hard There are multiple different companies working on the ECU as we speak....some of them who have hacked even the most proclaimed "unhackable" ECUs around.

Cobb also wasn't working in the background on the N54 for years before it was released. They spent less than a year on it, and most of that was logistics and tune verification, and multiple-rom support.

You are also wrong about the N54 development time line. I was around from the beginning of the N54 stuff. I got my first 335 in 2007. Back then, if you made 330 whp, you were big time. Shiv had $1500 piggies that ran 13 second quarter mile times. I had the first set of downpipes available. They were $900 and fit like sh!t. I also was the first guy outside of Terry to start testing the terry tuner, or JB2 as it became known. Since I was 93 octane, I pushed for a bit more boost, which is where the "hot pill" came from, or the JB2H. The N54 dev time line was an absolute snail's pace compared to the S55 so far.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by spool twice

FWIW... on the other forum, the owner of the forum has been informed by a known vendor that the ECU has been cracked and there is someone BETA testing it. . so, look for it to be released after testing is completed.

Tuning is moving along at a quick pace. Even Tony@Vargas has oem turbos on order to develop upgrades

I actually think S55 HP levels may exceed S63 HP levels soon since the ECU has been unlocked

I don't know that I wanna find out about that lol one the s55 would need to be able to handle high 600s, I'm not sure how much more the DCT can take over mid to high 600s its seeing on the s63tu, but the great thing about flash tunes is we will find out ... I can't wait to get this alpha on!

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by spool twice

FWIW... on the other forum, the owner of the forum has been informed by a known vendor that the ECU has been cracked and there is someone BETA testing it. . so, look for it to be released after testing is completed.

Tuning is moving along at a quick pace. Even Tony@Vargas has oem turbos on order to develop upgrades

I actually think S55 HP levels may exceed S63 HP levels soon since the ECU has been unlocked

Where'd you see that? I didn't see it and i frequent that forum. EDIT: NVM, it was the other forum. I hadnt been there in a bit.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Like I said, your not getting the tune that's on his car. Your alpha tune should be terrific, but not as powerful. Just look at ASAP's post above.

The system has different Stages and maps. Map 1 which is what the BETA guys are testing now is around 40-50whp over stock. Once BMS is comfortable with that testing they will move those willing up to stronger maps.

As a general rule BMS tends to release the strongest stuff as race maps and documents it accordingly. I've never heard of BMS putting down a number that a customer didn't ultimately wind up backing up. For example I saw a customer dyno 680whp with an M5 a few weeks ago using the same settings BMS used to make 670whp. On the N54 and N55 many customer cars have beaten their performance times and dyno numbers as well.

Mike

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by A418t81

There is more power to be had once the backend flashes are available. Also, exhaust and downpipe modifications haven't been studied. Same with the AWIC. The only thing that has been decently explored in this early stage is power potential with stock hardware. We are still very, very early in the development of the S55. Also, the S55's turbos are much, MUCH more amenable to machined turbo upgrades than the tiny little N54 units. The exhaust housings were the restrictions before, and now they are substantially larger. The hardware all around is also optimized for higher flow and bigger equipment. The housings are now sufficiently large that we should see really cool machined turbo offerings in the relatively near future.



You are a drama queen. There were no "massive" issues. He ran into some misfires at 28 freakin' psi of boost. Not really unsurprising given the early development and amount of boost being run. It is also clear that you are a newb when you talk about the car running rich. This happens because the ECU was hitting its max fuel trim, and instead of giving up and running lean like the N54s did because the fueling hardware was maxed out, it actually does just the opposite and runs rich. This means that there is a substantial amount of fueling left for even more power once the purely software limitation of fueling is addressed in the near future.

Do you have any idea how the fuel system is scaled in this car and do you know why the motor really goes rich? It's might not be hitting max fuel trims yet and there is some sort of internal ECU blockage going on there. We won't know unless you can see how the fueling tables are programmed in.

Also, do you even know what are you talking about? "Fully re-engineered ECU." What does that even mean? ROM hacks with new routines, or just basic table discovery? Table discovery isn't that hard There are multiple different companies working on the ECU as we speak....some of them who have hacked even the most proclaimed "unhackable" ECUs around.

Yes, re engineered ECU. That's how it works. Cobb had to translate all the tables into something that makes sense for all of us. There is no other way to do this.

Cobb also wasn't working in the background on the N54 for years before it was released. They spent less than a year on it, and most of that was logistics and tune verification, and multiple-rom support.

You are also wrong about the N54 development time line. I was around from the beginning of the N54 stuff. I got my first 335 in 2007. Back then, if you made 330 whp, you were big time. Shiv had $1500 piggies that ran 13 second quarter mile times. I had the first set of downpipes available. They were $900 and fit like sh!t. I also was the first guy outside of Terry to start testing the terry tuner, or JB2 as it became known. Since I was 93 octane, I pushed for a bit more boost, which is where the "hot pill" came from, or the JB2H. The N54 dev time line was an absolute snail's pace compared to the S55 so far.

Thank you for the history lesson. I wonder if the quick development has anything to do with things we learned over 5 years on the N54?

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Thank you for the history lesson. I wonder if the quick development has anything to do with things we learned over 5 years on the N54?

A little, yes...but most of the quick development work has been due to the fact that the S55 uses an ECU that is very similar to the N55's unit. The CAN functions are also the same. All of this means that most of the basic development work was already done thanks to the F30 N55s running around. There will be more fine-tuning and tweaking for the stock hardware. I'm also curious to see if there are plumbing changes that can be made for more power. We are so early in the development of this car that there are bound to be surprises. Always fun to watch and see.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The system has different Stages and maps. Map 1 which is what the BETA guys are testing now is around 40-50whp over stock. Once BMS is comfortable with that testing they will move those willing up to stronger maps.

As a general rule BMS tends to release the strongest stuff as race maps and documents it accordingly. I've never heard of BMS putting down a number that a customer didn't ultimately wind up backing up. For example I saw a customer dyno 680whp with an M5 a few weeks ago using the same settings BMS used to make 670whp. On the N54 and N55 many customer cars have beaten their performance times and dyno numbers as well.

Mike

Are you referring to Hamad that has more mods than Terry?

I haven't seen anyone close to his 5.9 60-130 time on his n54.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by A418t81

There is more power to be had once the backend flashes are available. Also, exhaust and downpipe modifications haven't been studied. Same with the AWIC. The only thing that has been decently explored in this early stage is power potential with stock hardware. We are still very, very early in the development of the S55. Also, the S55's turbos are much, MUCH more amenable to machined turbo upgrades than the tiny little N54 units. The exhaust housings were the restrictions before, and now they are substantially larger. The hardware all around is also optimized for higher flow and bigger equipment. The housings are now sufficiently large that we should see really cool machined turbo offerings in the relatively near future.

This ECU is much simpler since its a single Bosch unit vs the dual Bosch unit of the M5. I was initially wrong in thinking BMW would put the dual on the F8X. Ultimately the bean counters won because a 6cyl doesn't need a dual like the dual bank v8 of the M5/6. So maybe the ECU can be cracked sooner due to its "relative" simplicity vs the dual unit. And that sounds awesome re the turbos. Hopefully we will see a flash+turbo upgrade soon making over 600 wheel, assuming a fueling solution is found.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Are you referring to Hamad that has more mods than Terry?

I haven't seen anyone close to his 5.9 60-130 time on his n54.

There are a couple guys in the 670+whp dynojet range now on M5Post. All use the same mods as far as I know. Stage1 tune, exhaust, methanol injection, higher octane fuel.

On the 5.9s 60-130 that was only at 600rw. That car will get faster at 650whp. The key is its automatic trans, light weight, and matched with a faster spooling turbo. The 600whp is actually 100-150whp below what other N54s are making with larger turbos but they are also heavier cars and don't spool as well. The 2nd fastest 60-130 I know of is 6.1s but I expect to see a lot of cars in the 5s soon. BMS blazes the trail and then everyone catches up and passes them.

Mike

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

This ECU is much simpler since its a single Bosch unit vs the dual Bosch unit of the M5. I was initially wrong in thinking BMW would put the dual on the F8X. Ultimately the bean counters won because a 6cyl doesn't need a dual like the dual bank v8 of the M5/6. So maybe the ECU can be cracked sooner due to its "relative" simplicity vs the dual unit. And that sounds awesome re the turbos. Hopefully we will see a flash+turbo upgrade soon making over 600 wheel, assuming a fueling solution is found.

I do not think that this will be an issue. It has already been stated that the pumps will be significantly easier to upgrade than the N54/N55 style ones. The issue will be in the flash and re flashing the tables to alter trims, if someone is able to fully open the ECU up and provide tables a la Cobb can with the N54; then you have magic on your hands at a rate previously unheard of.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There are a couple guys in the 670+whp dynojet range now on M5Post. All use the same mods as far as I know. Stage1 tune, exhaust, methanol injection, higher octane fuel.

On the 5.9s 60-130 that was only at 600rw. That car will get faster at 650whp. The key is its automatic trans, light weight, and matched with a faster spooling turbo. The 600whp is actually 100-150whp below what other N54s are making with larger turbos but they are also heavier cars and don't spool as well. The 2nd fastest 60-130 I know of is 6.1s but I expect to see a lot of cars in the 5s soon. BMS blazes the trail and then everyone catches up and passes them.

Mike

Agree regarding the trans. Sure he can turn up boost of go bigger turbos but the trans may go...despite being built. And then you look at the 6MT singles and while they are running more power, they are loosing time with traction issues and shifting. Slippery slope.

[JRV]

FWIW, the M133 ECU in the 45 AMGs was just cracked a month ago by GAD-Motors but not sure how it compares to BMWs encryption.