F80 M3 vs. B8 S4

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by mact3333

I have had e30, e36, 3 e46 and e92 M3's in the past and imho, with every new generation of M3's, the steering feel has become more numb...the car sits too high and should sit at competition pkg level stock.

I have only been satisfied after adding KW V3 and Bilstein PSS9 coil overs on all my M3's(except e30 and e36) as far as steering feel and handling.

I truly feel the next generation of M3/4's have the steering feel and response that I desire without having to do coil overs yet again.

I sure hope so...

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Just a few facts. The S4 I bought was MSRP $51,900 with the good leather, the big wheels, the fancy interior trim, and the LSD. The M3 I priced out (in my signature) is $75,550 MSRP give or take a few hundred dollars.

You're not a very bright fellow, are you.

Nobody cares that your 2010 or whatever S4 cost $52K. I for instance bought my M3 for $48K so your point is invalid. To top everything off you compared your S4 price to a NEW M3/4.

In my earlier post I was talking about NOW prices and those are FACTS not your tailored "fact" nonsense.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Chill72

You're not a very bright fellow, are you.

Nobody cares that your 2010 or whatever S4 cost $52K. I for instance bought my M3 for $48K so your point is invalid. To top everything off you compared your S4 price to a NEW M3/4.

In my earlier post I was talking about NOW prices and those are FACTS not your tailored "fact" nonsense.

He won't get it. A 2014 S4 Prestige (..comes with navigation, B&O stereo, etc.) starts at $54k MSRP, and that's without LSD and some other goodies. Leather is another $1,250, Carbon fiber inlays add another $500, and LSD adds $1,100 and an adaptive suspension adds yet another $1000. That $54,000 just became $57,850 in order to get it on equal ground with a 'base' F8X ///M3. That makes the difference in cost around $4,100 (...or about $100 tacked onto the payment), and we still haven't addressed the vast performance differences and the weight savings of the ///M3. Why is the S4 coming up again?

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Chill72

You're not a very bright fellow, are you.

Nobody cares that your 2010 or whatever S4 cost $52K. I for instance bought my M3 for $48K so your point is invalid. To top everything off you compared your S4 price to a NEW M3/4.

In my earlier post I was talking about NOW prices and those are FACTS not your tailored "fact" nonsense.

But Chill........facts don't make for a sensational bullshit story!! I would give props where they are deserved if the video backed up the talent, but that was another waste of time.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

He won't get it. A 2014 S4 Prestige (..comes with navigation, B&O stereo, etc.) starts at $54k MSRP, and that's without LSD and some other goodies. Leather is another $1,250, Carbon fiber inlays add another $500, and LSD adds $1,100 and an adaptive suspension adds yet another $1000. That $54,000 just became $57,850 in order to get it on equal ground with a 'base' F8X ///M3. That makes the difference in cost around $4,100 (...or about $100 tacked onto the payment), and we still haven't addressed the vast performance differences and the weight savings of the ///M3. Why is the S4 coming up again?

$57,850 is also right around the same price as a loaded F30 335xi that would SMOKE an S4. I don't have to guess either. Check any magazine or test review. The only car in this price segment that is on equal footing with the 335xi is the Cadillac ATS 3.6TT. And that car is a mess as far as tech usability goes.

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

But Chill........facts don't make for a sensational bullshit story!! I would give props where they are deserved if the video backed up the talent, but that was another waste of time.

Oh man I watched first 12 minutes or so and the guy didn't pass anybody I couldn't watch anymore.

It was like watching my mom drive to the mall on a Sunday.

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

He won't get it. A 2014 S4 Prestige (..comes with navigation, B&O stereo, etc.) starts at $54k MSRP, and that's without LSD and some other goodies. Leather is another $1,250, Carbon fiber inlays add another $500, and LSD adds $1,100 and an adaptive suspension adds yet another $1000. That $54,000 just became $57,850 in order to get it on equal ground with a 'base' F8X ///M3. That makes the difference in cost around $4,100 (...or about $100 tacked onto the payment), and we still haven't addressed the vast performance differences and the weight savings of the ///M3. Why is the S4 coming up again?

Finally I would like to add that the only Audi's worth having are A4s (for daily duties) and R8s (Just because they look pimp). The rest are total rip offs especially now that Audi started to raise their prices. They became a little too arrogant in last few years since their sales went up big time.

To me a new S4 is worth $42K tops for what it bring to the table.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Just a few facts. The S4 I bought was MSRP $51,900 with the good leather, the big wheels, the fancy interior trim, and the LSD. The M3 I priced out (in my signature) is $75,550 MSRP give or take a few hundred dollars. I'm being optimistic about how reasonable the option prices might be. My car put out 367 HP at the wheels on 91 octane from a stage 1 stasis/revo ECU flash which most Audi dealerships can install for you for about $1100. The M3 will have a near identical output.

The prevailing argument is that the M3 is in a category of 1. Well, it's in a category of at least 3 if you add in 4 door offerings from other car makers in the same country. It's not like having an S4 makes you unable or unworthy of driving on the same tarmac as an M car. Most of the people posting would have no advantage in lap time driving an old M3 vs. a new M3 on track. It simply takes a level of skill and practice that most people don't have to extract the extra capability out of an M3 vs an S4. You have to ask yourself questions like "Do I have 10,000 laps at Laguna?" or "am I ready for competition classes?" to really be saying that you are absolutely capable of driving the wheels off of an M3.

This session warms up at about 11 minutes:

Haven't really followed the discussion prior to this video, but if the video is proof that the S4 is as fast as a M3 round a track, I'm not sure I follow you

I can only see you overtake cars that wave you past, and having trouble keeping up with a E36 M3. The US E36 M3 had a 240hp engine instead of the Euro 282hp or 321hp versions. Your S4 has 333hp as far as I know, and it still seems that the E36 M3 with nearly 100hp less is pulling away from you...

Don't you think that a E46, E9x or F8x M would result in a even larger gap between your S4 and those cars round a track?

However, the straight line acceleration and easy tunability is perhaps best illustrated in this review by Chris Harris:

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Haven't really followed the discussion prior to this video, but if the video is proof that the S4 is as fast as a M3 round a track, I'm not sure I follow you

I can only see you overtake cars that wave you past, and having trouble keeping up with a E36 M3. The US E36 M3 had a 240hp engine instead of the Euro 282hp or 321hp versions. Your S4 has 333hp as far as I know, and it still seems that the E36 M3 with nearly 100hp less is pulling away from you...

Don't you think that a E46, E9x or F8x M would result in a even larger gap between your S4 and those cars round a track?

However, the straight line acceleration and easy tunability is perhaps best illustrated in this review by Chris Harris:

That was a cool video, I quite enjoyed it.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Chill72

That was a cool video, I quite enjoyed it.

Indeed! Again, there are not many straights on circuits across the world that would play to the favor of an S4. Especially Laguna Seca!! That is a quick, light, grip happy car track. Perhaps you should try Special Stage Route 5 on Gran Turismo if you want to pass people for real......well simulated, but that is as real as it will ever get.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Chill72

That was a cool video, I quite enjoyed it.

As did I, and it was eerily reminiscent of the 335i vs E9X M3 tunability threads that littered the forums.

[JoeFromPA]

The s4 is a great car. Why is this even an argument? It also represents a good value. It's not the car you choose as a track toy, normally, but that doesn't take away from the fact it's a excellent luxo-performance AWD vehicle. It makes a great choice for a DD in snowy regions vs. the m3.

....

To get this thread back on topic...there's the following things about how it will drive that are worth considering:

1. Engine Torque is up ~35% at peak but a lot more than that at low RPMs (i.e. over 70% at 2000rpms iirc). This is in addition to a lower body weight and - presumably - lower rotating assembly with the CF driveshaft.

It is also geared aggressively, has a high compression ratio, and supposedly has next to no turbo lag (which, based upon the n54, I can believe).

What this means to me is it will accelerate like a supercar unlike any m3 before in daily driving.

2. The wheelbase and size of the vehicle is now solidly into 5-series territory, as has been discussed to death. While a lot of characteristics are up to chassis tuning, this gives the m3 more ability to absorb bumps and smooth out the driving experience - at the expense of agility of a shorter wheelbase. We don't know anything about this part yet because it's so influenced by suspension tuning, but it's the reality of a longer wheelbase - if the e90 had an excellent ride, and they kept the suspension tuning the same as the e90 (for example), the wheelbase should make it ride slightly better.

3. One of the things I haven't seen mentioned much is tires. The new m3 rides on 255 wide front and 275 wide rear tires. This is 10mm wider front and rear on the new m3.

This is important for several reasons.

- Let's get out of the way that wider tires normally mean more road noise & tramlining. I'm assuming that the new m3 has less compared to a -when-it-came-out- 2008 m3 due to significant advances in tire technology

- The new m3 weighs notably less than the outgoing m3. Normally, using the same amount of tire and less weight would mean greater traction in all situations. Using MORE TIRE and less weight simultaneously? This car should offer significantly more tire-based traction in a wide variety of situations given this reality.

To put this in perspective, the e39 m5 weighed 3900-3950 pounds and wore 275 rear and 245 front tires. The new m3 is ~500-550 pounds lighter.

- I'm sure the rear tires will be punished with all that torque coming on so quickly

- Lastly, despite the longer wheelbase, the new car is both lighter and should be able to exploit a larger contact patch under load given the new tire dimensions. This SHOULD translate into a front end that turns in more readily, and other desirable traits

4. Lastly, the f30 chassis is a significant improvement over the e90. I'm assuming the new M3/M4 chassis is going to be a real step up over the e90/e92 m3 chassis as well. And that's not to knock the e90/e92 m3 chassis.

...

So those are my theories on how the m3 should have improved without ever having driven it and knowing only firm specs. On the flip side:

1. I think the new m3 is going to be a bit louder, a bit more NVH, than the e90 platform. This is based solely upon the f30 having a bit less sound deadening and the f80 going on a serious diet too. I think we've gotten enough glimpses/feedback to indicate the f80 is going to have secondary ride characteristics somewhere between an e90 and e46.

We see this type of "de-comforting" a bit in the f80 today. No arm-rest in the rear, fixed rear headrests, etc....this is a vehicle still aimed to transport 4 passengers as needed, but less comfort minded.

Just my opinion.

2. If M really did focus more heavily on track performance, and on steering feel with the new EPS system, I think the new M3 might be twitchier at speed.

...

Obviously all of this is just conjecture, but I wanted to try to get this thread back on track

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA;

Obviously all of this is just conjecture, but I wanted to try to get this thread back on track

Thank you.

[RMB]

^^^Thanks Joe. Those are very good points and make a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the input.

[gee-m-w]

Regarding the track, that was the advanced run group in BMW's largest national club event. There's nothing deficient about anyone's skill in that group. Some people are warming up their cars; some people are cooling down their cars; some people are doing exercises or are teaching a student something while driving. Don't make assumptions about car speed or capability just because a cooperative pass is happening.

Some cars are daily drivers; some are dedicated weekend track cars. If you saw an E36 or something blow by me like I was stopped, it was probably on race slicks which allow those drivers to do each turn at about 8 MPH faster. They'll slingshot right past you. Sometimes they gut their interiors and stiffen the chassis with a rollcage.

The only point of sharing the video is to show you that there are a lot of cars capable of sharing the track together. If you have a brand new 335i or S4 you're not likely to exactly "need" a new M3 to feel competitive. You can't exactly be competitive because it's not a competition.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

lower rotating assembly with the CF driveshaft.

I take issue with the CF driveshaft. Every component is attached to another one. In the 6MT our CF driveshaft is attached to a dual mass flywheel which will weigh about 20 pounds. A common aftermarket mod is to replace it with a single mass flywheel and shave about 7-8 pounds. It's easier to stall the car with the lighter wheel because the revs fall faster. So we have a racing component attached to a luxury component.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I take issue with the CF driveshaft. Every component is attached to another one. In the 6MT our CF driveshaft is attached to a dual mass flywheel which will weigh about 20 pounds. A common aftermarket mod is to replace it with a single mass flywheel and shave about 7-8 pounds. It's easier to stall the car with the lighter wheel because the revs fall faster. So we have a racing component attached to a luxury component.

The new S4 doesn't have a CF driveshaft. Problem solved.

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Regarding the track, that was the advanced run group in BMW's largest national club event. There's nothing deficient about anyone's skill in that group. Some people are warming up their cars; some people are cooling down their cars; some people are doing exercises or are teaching a student something while driving. Don't make assumptions about car speed or capability just because a cooperative pass is happening.

Some cars are daily drivers; some are dedicated weekend track cars. If you saw an E36 or something blow by me like I was stopped, it was probably on race slicks which allow those drivers to do each turn at about 8 MPH faster. They'll slingshot right past you. Sometimes they gut their interiors and stiffen the chassis with a rollcage.

The only point of sharing the video is to show you that there are a lot of cars capable of sharing the track together. If you have a brand new 335i or S4 you're not likely to exactly "need" a new M3 to feel competitive. You can't exactly be competitive because it's not a competition.

[mpower3330]

Originally Posted by Chill72

Funny

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

The s4 is a great car. Why is this even an argument? It also represents a good value. It's not the car you choose as a track toy, normally, but that doesn't take away from the fact it's a excellent luxo-performance AWD vehicle. It makes a great choice for a DD in snowy regions vs. the m3.

....

To get this thread back on topic...there's the following things about how it will drive that are worth considering:

1. Engine Torque is up ~35% at peak but a lot more than that at low RPMs (i.e. over 70% at 2000rpms iirc). This is in addition to a lower body weight and - presumably - lower rotating assembly with the CF driveshaft.

It is also geared aggressively, has a high compression ratio, and supposedly has next to no turbo lag (which, based upon the n54, I can believe).

What this means to me is it will accelerate like a supercar unlike any m3 before in daily driving.

2. The wheelbase and size of the vehicle is now solidly into 5-series territory, as has been discussed to death. While a lot of characteristics are up to chassis tuning, this gives the m3 more ability to absorb bumps and smooth out the driving experience - at the expense of agility of a shorter wheelbase. We don't know anything about this part yet because it's so influenced by suspension tuning, but it's the reality of a longer wheelbase - if the e90 had an excellent ride, and they kept the suspension tuning the same as the e90 (for example), the wheelbase should make it ride slightly better.

3. One of the things I haven't seen mentioned much is tires. The new m3 rides on 255 wide front and 275 wide rear tires. This is 10mm wider front and rear on the new m3.

This is important for several reasons.

- Let's get out of the way that wider tires normally mean more road noise & tramlining. I'm assuming that the new m3 has less compared to a -when-it-came-out- 2008 m3 due to significant advances in tire technology

- The new m3 weighs notably less than the outgoing m3. Normally, using the same amount of tire and less weight would mean greater traction in all situations. Using MORE TIRE and less weight simultaneously? This car should offer significantly more tire-based traction in a wide variety of situations given this reality.

To put this in perspective, the e39 m5 weighed 3900-3950 pounds and wore 275 rear and 245 front tires. The new m3 is ~500-550 pounds lighter.

- I'm sure the rear tires will be punished with all that torque coming on so quickly

- Lastly, despite the longer wheelbase, the new car is both lighter and should be able to exploit a larger contact patch under load given the new tire dimensions. This SHOULD translate into a front end that turns in more readily, and other desirable traits

4. Lastly, the f30 chassis is a significant improvement over the e90. I'm assuming the new M3/M4 chassis is going to be a real step up over the e90/e92 m3 chassis as well. And that's not to knock the e90/e92 m3 chassis.

...

So those are my theories on how the m3 should have improved without ever having driven it and knowing only firm specs. On the flip side:

1. I think the new m3 is going to be a bit louder, a bit more NVH, than the e90 platform. This is based solely upon the f30 having a bit less sound deadening and the f80 going on a serious diet too. I think we've gotten enough glimpses/feedback to indicate the f80 is going to have secondary ride characteristics somewhere between an e90 and e46.

We see this type of "de-comforting" a bit in the f80 today. No arm-rest in the rear, fixed rear headrests, etc....this is a vehicle still aimed to transport 4 passengers as needed, but less comfort minded.

Just my opinion.

2. If M really did focus more heavily on track performance, and on steering feel with the new EPS system, I think the new M3 might be twitchier at speed.

...

Obviously all of this is just conjecture, but I wanted to try to get this thread back on track

I would describe this as intelligent prognostication rather than idle conjecture. Nicely done and nice attempt at a thread save.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I take issue with the CF driveshaft. Every component is attached to another one. In the 6MT our CF driveshaft is attached to a dual mass flywheel which will weigh about 20 pounds. A common aftermarket mod is to replace it with a single mass flywheel and shave about 7-8 pounds. It's easier to stall the car with the lighter wheel because the revs fall faster. So we have a racing component attached to a luxury component.

Of course it's the combined mass of the drivetrain that has to be accelerated by the engine. And by reducing the mass of the driveshaft by 40% there is a huge gain, without sacrificing comfort.

They claim to have a weight optimized flywheel, not sure if I have seen any confirmation that it will be a dual mass flywheel though? But regardless there is nothing wrong in saving 40% weight combined with either a dual- or single mass flywheel

The S54 had a single mass flywheel, but the N54/55 has a dual mass flywheel.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Of course it's the combined mass of the drivetrain that has to be accelerated by the engine. And by reducing the mass of the driveshaft by 40% there is a huge gain, without sacrificing comfort.

They claim to have a weight optimized flywheel, not sure if I have seen any confirmation that it will be a dual mass flywheel though? But regardless there is nothing wrong in saving 40% weight combined with either a dual- or single mass flywheel

The S54 had a single mass flywheel, but the N54/55 has a dual mass flywheel.

I think this can be summarized thusly: The problem with putting a lightweight flywheel on a car with a much heavier flywheel stock, is that the car was built with a much heavier stock flywheel in mind - you are dramatically changing the dynamics of the crank-balance-equation when you cut that weight in half or remove it's damping (dual-mass) mechanism.

However, when you BUILD a vehicle with a lightweight component in mind, already optimized to that component and balanced to that component, you get all the benefits of the mass reduction and very very few of any side effects.