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      10-08-2019, 12:01 AM   #45
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Next question: do you drive w your seat belt latched all the time?

I really don't get this whole thing, it only kicks in when you're about to break loose, vs potential safety issues having it off. It's a no-brainer to keep it on unless in certain snow situations or the track or some other place where you may want to potentially wreck your car, so keep it away from others if you wanna be a hooligan.

Where's the vid of that moron doing a simple run w his 720s and he takes out a R8 in the process?
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      10-08-2019, 12:05 AM   #46
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The E30 was only 127hp but it was barely over 2300 pounds and rear wheel drive. It was a lively car.
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      10-08-2019, 01:12 AM   #47
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Even with all the nannies on, you can lose control by over-driving the car or hitting something slick or having a tire leave the road. I'll never own a car where I don't understand the limits without the nannies on. No way.
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      10-08-2019, 02:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antych View Post
because no one drives on the limit doing errands.
Depends on the errand and if anyone in the car

Sport plus works good for almost all uses except when it's getting in the way of my fun and then OFF it goes
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      10-08-2019, 04:20 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
It'd be asinine of you to get near triggering stability control on a public road, but day to day you trigger it? Asinine indeed.
This is exactly why turning it off is the way to go. If you mean asinine is bad. I don't advocate careless driving, but your argument looks doubtful still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Yes, we made it through a time when there weren't so many safety systems on cars, but many didn't.
It's so fine, actually. These days safety might go some wrong way: imbeciles feel protected and act carelessly/recklessly while they shouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
The safety systems are there for when something unexpected happens. I've no doubt you can drive a car, but sometimes sh1t happens, irrespective of driving skill.
"Expect the unexpected." Instead of chatting/messaging, whatever else behind the wheel. Shit happens irrespective of safety systems too.

I don't mean safety systems are useless. They just aren't as good as you would want them to be. They have their limitations in fact. They act "within the laws of physics". Do you know what it means (physics, laws)? Some neither know or care. That's not what is safe.

Artificial intellect can not (well, should not ) replace the natural one. It's funny they call everything "smart" these days. A table, a chair... A phone. A car. Compared to themselves, perhaps. A safety system is fast and precise , but it doesn't know what you (should) know. Safe driving isn't only about skills themselves. It's about application as well. Just as you mentioned initially about asinine: if one's an ass no safety system can change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
But I cannot see any defensible argument that it's safer with stability control off, and safety is all that matters on a public road.
It's not safer in your primitive sense. It's more engaging and that adds to safety in the sense of the control over the situation. If you are a reasonable one. If you aren't it's just a different story. When I only once tried cruise control I did feel like closing my eyes. I even did. Briefly. "Nothing to do all day but stay in bed." I didn't bother to order one into my car even though the price was sweet. The safest is not to drive. After all.


It's so nice they let you choose the level of driving involvement. Just "choose wisely".
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      10-08-2019, 06:54 AM   #50
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I drive with it on currently, no matter what drive mode I'm in. But I've also only had the car for a month, so I'm still learning it. Eventually it'll go to MDM for when I'm on some less-populated drives in some areas, otherwise yeah there's no point it having it off for just every-day city driving.

The last "fun" turbo car I had (I don't really count the 340i, because even with BM3 it still felt tame) was my 500awhp VR4. That was AWD though, had a way different set up to the F80, and it was a 90s car so it was a lot more rudimentary compared to this M3. This is my first decent hp modern car, and they're so different feeling so I'm taking my time to learn it
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      10-08-2019, 10:43 AM   #51
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For guys turn it off, have you tried just sport plus, I don't think I need more wheel-spin than that
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      10-08-2019, 11:12 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
For guys turn it off, have you tried just sport plus, I don't think I need more wheel-spin than that
My car is just a 135i. I believe I have (short push) traction control off and (long push) traction control off and stability control off.

DSC was frustrating because if the car stepped out at all it just killed power. If it just lightly corrected I might not mind it, but it feels like a car hitting fuel cut. That kills any kind of spirited driving experience in my opinion, so I always turn it off.

I don't have a way to phrase this without sounding overly confident or condescending, but I'm not afraid of a little wheel spin or oversteer. I think a little self control and a bit of driving experience goes a long way. 99% of my driving time doesn't involve a need for stability control, so why turn it on? That 1% that it would kick on is exactly when I don't want it to.
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      10-08-2019, 11:53 AM   #53
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I'll put it in Sport + for limited intervention and usually that's fun enough for me. I've had an accident in my 86 where(in my younger foolish days) I didn't let the tires heat up, took a turn too fast with all the nannies off and the car snapped, snapped back and hit a guard rail.
There are too many variables to take into account when driving with everything off in my opinion including but not limited to: hard braking for a non-observant pedestrian when taking a turn, stalled car, elevation change in the road, slick surface, tires not heated up, low boost, high boost, and many more.

However with all that said; I do want to add that the m240i does not snap like the 86 does and the oversteer is more gradual, predictable and easier to control.
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      10-08-2019, 12:28 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YuminNuman View Post
Thanks for the advice dad but I'll keep it off. It's hard to believe we all survived the 80s and 90s without these life saving computer modules.
But we didn't all survive. It's a bit like a smoker saying "smoking hasn't killed me".

I'm from the era of RWD and no safety aids. Learned to drive with RWD (and stick). I've known some pretty good drivers who wish they'd had a bit of DSC intervention, in "the good old days" when nannies weren't on the radar.

IMO, there is a time and place for getting to know how a chassis performs, but cars used as daily drivers, we also have a responsibility to other road users. We can all make mistakes. Drive safely guys!
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      10-08-2019, 01:20 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
But we didn't all survive. It's a bit like a smoker saying "smoking hasn't killed me".

I'm from the era of RWD and no safety aids. Learned to drive with RWD (and stick). I've known some pretty good drivers who wish they'd had a bit of DSC intervention, in "the good old days" when nannies weren't on the radar.

IMO, there is a time and place for getting to know how a chassis performs, but cars used as daily drivers, we also have a responsibility to other road users. We can all make mistakes. Drive safely guys!
Good points. Also to the comment of surviving the 80s and 90s without today's driver aids - most cars also has like 200hp or less back then and were naturally aspirated. Much different ballgame today where your basically family sedan has 300+ hp and gobs of toque available at near idle engine speeds.
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      10-08-2019, 01:24 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
My car is just a 135i. I believe I have (short push) traction control off and (long push) traction control off and stability control off.

DSC was frustrating because if the car stepped out at all it just killed power. If it just lightly corrected I might not mind it, but it feels like a car hitting fuel cut. That kills any kind of spirited driving experience in my opinion, so I always turn it off.

I don't have a way to phrase this without sounding overly confident or condescending, but I'm not afraid of a little wheel spin or oversteer. I think a little self control and a bit of driving experience goes a long way. 99% of my driving time doesn't involve a need for stability control, so why turn it on? That 1% that it would kick on is exactly when I don't want it to.
I wonder how has BMW DSC progress over the years, I would guess the earlier implementation cuts off sooner (since they can't tune it as finely as they can do now).

The only time I can really recall track control kicks in was in a Hertz rental 2009? Mazda 6 in Ithaca, NY during a snowstorm (had to drive to NYC to get to JFK the next day, so...).

I can definitely feel the brake kick in, can't quite remember if I got the fuel cut feeling, back end definitely slide a few times for sure though...
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      10-08-2019, 01:26 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Good points. Also to the comment of surviving the 80s and 90s without today's driver aids - most cars also has like 200hp or less back then and were naturally aspirated. Much different ballgame today where your basically family sedan has 300+ hp and gobs of toque available at near idle engine speeds.
yea it's crazy how my g30 540i xDrive has better 0-60 time *than E39 M5.

It use to be a big deal to hit 0 to 60 under 5 sec, now almost all the middle pack does that
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      10-08-2019, 01:28 PM   #58
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I mean I remember when I was young (as in elementary school), the local (Taiwan) car magazine used to lump car that are in "10" second club as something special,

and the 10 seconds was referring to 0 to 100kmh (so ~62mph) in under 10 seconds...
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      10-08-2019, 02:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I wonder how has BMW DSC progress over the years, I would guess the earlier implementation cuts off sooner (since they can't tune it as finely as they can do now).

The only time I can really recall track control kicks in was in a Hertz rental 2009? Mazda 6 in Ithaca, NY during a snowstorm (had to drive to NYC to get to JFK the next day, so...).

I can definitely feel the brake kick in, can't quite remember if I got the fuel cut feeling, back end definitely slide a few times for sure though...
I don't know how the programming of DSC changes from generation of vehicles to different models. I've had traction control step in on a number of occasions with my 135i when I had my winter tires on the car on dry pavement going in a straight line with only light throttle application. I think I've had traction control step in a couple of times with my summers on.

When I was doing the M Car Control Clinic, we were running with everything off except DSC. The weather conditions that day were not ideal as it was cold for May, windy, and rained off and on throughout the day. I pushed the M3C and M4C cars pretty hard and never felt DSC kick in. So I have to wonder for those that turn DSC off because of something they're doing on public streets.
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      10-08-2019, 02:29 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I pushed the M3C and M4C cars pretty hard and never felt DSC kick in. So I have to wonder for those that turn DSC off because of something they're doing on public streets.
Same here. I know road surface finishes and tires (including tire condition) make a big difference, as DSC intervention is mostly about lack of grip. It does appear some drivers are trying to push through the conditions where DSC intervention is really appropriate, for whatever reason, either the road/tires or simply pushing on too hard. DSC being 'faster' reacting than the driver!

I don't find my BMW cuts back power when on the limits of traction, perhaps it is because of my driving experience. Maybe I'm cutting back myself, ahead of the DSC needing to intervene. I suggest with years of more 'twitchy' BMWs (early 3 & 5-series), my senses are hopefully still intact and I am tuned to react to any twitches.
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      10-08-2019, 02:44 PM   #61
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M2 was driven in Sport 99% with DSC fully engaged.
M2C was set up with M1=Sport and M2=Sport+ w/MDM.

Driving home in the M2C with M2 settings from work one afternoon, as I was going around a turn like I have in the M2 for 16,000 miles and in the M2C for ~ 3,000 miles. The rear of the car suddenly and violently snapped toward the P/S. I corrected and the car straightened out immediately. If the DSC was off, I'm certain the rear would have contacted the curb in a very bad way.

I've played it over and over in my head and looked at this turn again and again since and I cannot figure out what happened. The only thing, that could possibly have caused it was a very small ~6" metal cover (not manhole cover size).

On the street, I don't even use MDM anymore. It's just not worth it.
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      10-08-2019, 03:00 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
So I have to wonder for those that turn DSC off because of something they're doing on public streets.
It's 100% as you think. I'm asking the car to go past what DSC thinks I should. Wheelspin, oversteer, or both. I'm not saying that I'm in a constant state of drift or rolling burnout, but the inability to accelerate hard in first or second making a turn because the computer decides that wheelspin will kill me is a bummer.

As I said before. It's the 1% use case. I just don't think that I need it on.
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      10-08-2019, 03:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
For guys turn it off, have you tried just sport plus, I don't think I need more wheel-spin than that
Sure, all the time. I also use Traction mode often too. I don't like the Sport throttle setting much as it's a bit too aggressive for hard driving, at least in a 6MT. I much prefer the linear Comfort throttle setting used in Sport (chassis setting only), Traction, and the DSC Off. My only annoyance with the Comfort throttle is the initial 1/4" of travel which is too dead, IMO.

Most of us that run in DSC Off on the street aren't driving like a-holes with a disregard for the public. Most of us that are driving hard on are doing so on dry vacant stretches, B roads, etc. that we know well. We're also not driving at 10/10.

The stability control and traction control features aren't merely focused on what the rear axle is doing. They also sense understeer and will induce braking to compound it, even if understeer isn't happening. I find that annoying.

In DSC Off, the car feels unrestrained and does what I expect it to do. In the stability modes, I really dislike the intervention (throttle cuts, braking, etc) when I'm driving hard. Sure, Sport+ and Traction modes will let you marginally hang out the rear, but the stability control system will often abruptly stop the slide causing some rather hard chassis pitching as it intervenes. In DSC Off, I can hang out the tail as little or as much as I like and stay in the throttle and gracefully power my way through in a graceful fashion.

From some of the responses I'm reading about folks loosing control and over-steering into things and such, it sure sounds to me like they should leave the systems on as they aren't as in tune with what the car is doing and/or are asking too much of the car or don't understand the throttle control and brake control necessary when the tires are spinning and sliding.
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      10-08-2019, 03:36 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Same here. I know road surface finishes and tires (including tire condition) make a big difference, as DSC intervention is mostly about lack of grip. It does appear some drivers are trying to push through the conditions where DSC intervention is really appropriate, for whatever reason, either the road/tires or simply pushing on too hard. DSC being 'faster' reacting than the driver!

I don't find my BMW cuts back power when on the limits of traction, perhaps it is because of my driving experience. Maybe I'm cutting back myself, ahead of the DSC needing to intervene. I suggest with years of more 'twitchy' BMWs (early 3 & 5-series), my senses are hopefully still intact and I am tuned to react to any twitches.
I suppose there is one part we can critique modern BMW, the steering doesn't really tell you limit (I don't dare to try), though with modern BMW my feeling it's mostly just point then drive, it would mostly put the power down and would work for 99% of the population for 99% of the time...
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      10-08-2019, 03:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Sure, all the time. I also use Traction mode often too. I don't like the Sport throttle setting much as it's a bit too aggressive for hard driving, at least in a 6MT. I much prefer the linear Comfort throttle setting used in Sport (chassis setting only), Traction, and the DSC Off. My only annoyance with the Comfort throttle is the initial 1/4" of travel which is too dead, IMO.

Most of us that run in DSC Off on the street aren't driving like a-holes with a disregard for the public. Most of us that are driving hard on are doing so on dry vacant stretches, B roads, etc. that we know well. We're also not driving at 10/10.

The stability control and traction control features aren't merely focused on what the rear axle is doing. They also sense understeer and will induce braking to compound it, even if understeer isn't happening. I find that annoying.

In DSC Off, the car feels unrestrained and does what I expect it to do. In the stability modes, I really dislike the intervention (throttle cuts, braking, etc) when I'm driving hard. Sure, Sport+ and Traction modes will let you marginally hang out the rear, but the stability control system will often abruptly stop the slide causing some rather hard chassis pitching as it intervenes. In DSC Off, I can hang out the tail as little or as much as I like and stay in the throttle and gracefully power my way through in a graceful fashion.

From some of the responses I'm reading about folks loosing control and over-steering into things and such, it sure sounds to me like they should leave the systems on as they aren't as in tune with what the car is doing and/or are asking too much of the car or don't understand the throttle control and brake control necessary when the tires are spinning and sliding.
I'm sure you're a better driver than me

if I hit a random metal surface/black ice that I wasn't expecting my guess is I would wish DSC was on...
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      10-08-2019, 06:19 PM   #66
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DSC button for 3 seconds every time I start the car. Every. Single. Time. Always.

I also have a welded diff. The car will kill inexperienced drivers. I love it.
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