[Hooded]

Originally Posted by jackstrath

Yup snap.. Im not an "anti-vaxxer" ether, i got all the jabs and such when i was little and for the whole, thankful for getting them, including the MMR vaccine... and even though 4 years ago i got the Mumps...


I don't get the flu jab yearly ether, is it luck that i don't come down with anything? I work on offshore rigs where there's always a large population with cold/flu like symptoms and manage to survive symptom free so for me there's no need. Maybe when i get older and do start to show something i will change my mind, My dad without fail gets the flu yearly for example....
I think it really should be up to the person, everyone's different, but like i say it will be interesting to see if its made mandatory.

If it’s made mandatory nothing says you have to be one of the first to get it. Hold off and delay having it as long as possible until half the population of Britain has already had it, at least if any early symptoms/side effects start rearing their ugly head you’ll have grounds to refuse then that the courts might agree with!

[ZedsRedBaby]

Difficult question. As posted before, I'm fairly sure I've had COVID. Very bad spell early April, followed by a few apparent recurrences. Not nice at all.

Just mentioned to OH today, I've had a couple of weeks of feeling really good, in fact today I'm feeling better than I have for a long time.

So, would I have a vaccine? TBH probably not, I think I'm immune now. But if I hadn't already had quite a few days of feeling like death warmed up and strung out, I would say get a jab. Worst case, you get a very mild dose for a couple of days, best case you avoid some serious unpleasantness.

[sahajesh]

Originally Posted by rjwojcik

Any one seen I Am Legend?

Saying that, I would probably take it

I hope you don't mean the bukake scene.

[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby

Difficult question. As posted before, I'm fairly sure I've had COVID. Very bad spell early April, followed by a few apparent recurrences. Not nice at all.

Just mentioned to OH today, I've had a couple of weeks of feeling really good, in fact today I'm feeling better than I have for a long time.

So, would I have a vaccine? TBH probably not, I think I'm immune now. But if I hadn't already had quite a few days of feeling like death warmed up and strung out, I would say get a jab. Worst case, you get a very mild dose for a couple of days, best case you avoid some serious unpleasantness.

Can't remember if I asked this on the other forum, but did you get a serology test? That would provide some piece of mind to know if you have been infected ( this is predicated on using a sensitive test with strong positive and negative predictive values).

[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by Hooded

If it’s made mandatory nothing says you have to be one of the first to get it. Hold off and delay having it as long as possible until half the population of Britain has already had it, at least if any early symptoms/side effects start rearing their ugly head you’ll have grounds to refuse then that the courts might agree with!

Definitely skip the Russian roulette model as they are calling it of vaccine development. I think some of the 100 vaccines under development that are in various stages of clinical trials will be shown to be safe and efficacious. The top 4 or 5 look promising and that is encouraging, although by no means does that mean they will be successful in the phase 3 trial. Those companies so far seem to be putting their vaccines through good tests and seem to be doing this right. Assuming some are effectively battle tested, the ability to ramp up and vaccinate the masses and who to vaccinate will be Interesting. This will especially be difficult if there is a paucity of data available on the vaccine's effectiveness in different age groups.

There are some interesting parallels to read about when one looks back at history and what occurred during the 1918-1920 flu pandemic and the scourge of polio that occurred prior to Salk's and then Sabin's polio vaccines.

[ZedsRedBaby]

Originally Posted by CajunBMW

Can't remember if I asked this on the other forum, but did you get a serology test? That would provide some piece of mind to know if you have been infected ( this is predicated on using a sensitive test with strong positive and negative predictive values).

No. I asked about a test but at the time it was only available to hospital patients and health workers. As I wasn't actually dying I didn't fancy going anywhere near a hospital so I didn't have a test. I'm not sure what the availability is now but it might be too late anyway.

[Hartside]

Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby

No. I asked about a test but at the time it was only available to hospital patients and health workers. As I wasn't actually dying I didn't fancy going anywhere near a hospital so I didn't have a test. I'm not sure what the availability is now but it might be too late anyway.

Up to December 2019 I was travelling to and working in China every 3 or 4 weeks. I felt terrible in the middle of December, high temps etc. My wife got the same in the latter part of December and then it reoccurred with her in January. She was coughing, high temperatures and the like

We were convinced that she had Covid-19 and we paid for an antibody test back in May just to see. Results came back negative for both of us. I think it was £70 each.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by Hartside

Up to December 2019 I was travelling to and working in China every 3 or 4 weeks. I felt terrible in the middle of December, high temps etc. My wife got the same in the latter part of December and then it reoccurred with her in January. She was coughing, high temperatures and the like

We were convinced that she had Covid-19 and we paid for an antibody test back in May just to see. Results came back negative for both of us. I think it was £70 each.

What kind of antibody test?

The do-at-home finger prick test appears hopeless. The full blood draw serology test is far more accurate.

Although as I said above, antibodies aren't the only thing that gives immunity, and not the only thing that shows you've had it. A negative antibody test doesn't mean you didn't have it or aren't immune.

[ZedsRedBaby]

Originally Posted by BBri89

What kind of antibody test?

The do-at-home finger prick test appears hopeless. The full blood draw serology test is far more accurate.

Although as I said above, antibodies aren't the only thing that gives immunity, and not the only thing that shows you've had it. A negative antibody test doesn't mean you didn't have it or aren't immune.

I believe the test only works up to 3 months after infection, which is why I think it might be too late for me to have one.

[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby

I believe the test only works up to 3 months after infection, which is why I think it might be too late for me to have one.

There is truth to a time frame for high levels of Abs, but that is based on the nature of the test and our own biology. We read in the news all the time that Ab levels go down over time. With the correct test, like the one our diagnostic lab set up and uses, we can definitely see many many months later patient Ab levels very effectively. Because we have coupled tests with virus neutralization, even getting colleagues with appropriate BSL-3 facilities to help, we have high confidence that we are measuring the correct Abs. As BBri89 said some of the assays are not as reliable. He is spot on with the comments, and it is for those reasons why we favor the blood draw and not the use of the lancet in our diagnostic lab. We prefer an old school blood draw coupled with a highly sensitive assay with excellent positive and negative predictive values. A number of the quick tests are just yes or know answers. We have a quantitative test and even after months, folks that help us with convalescent plasma therapy in our hospital continue to have viable Abs even though numbers go down over time. It also seems to be important as to which antigen of the virus you look at S vs N. But you can see with the right assay if you have been infected, if done right. I don't blame you by the way for staying away from the hospital.

As examples of long term Abs, I have had many screens many years after I have been vaccinated to test for appropriate protection. For example for HepB or Measles, etc as part of my job.

As pointed out above the Ab test, although it can be valid is not the only reliable measure of immunity. Once Ab levels wane, the memory B cells for the high affinity Abs remain and circulate and remain vigilant for a new infection. In addition memory T cells are also created and they remain vigilant. We know from experience with folks from the benign CoVs and some data from the other two pathogenic CoVs that there is the potential of longer term immunity and cross protection. It is this idea of cross protection that has attracted a lot of attention these days at least from an immunological perspective.

Cheers,

[DougMcL]

I had a blood draw test in June. I was absolutely sure that I had had Covid, with a loss of taste and smell. The test came back as no antibodies detected.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Hartside

Up to December 2019 I was travelling to and working in China every 3 or 4 weeks. I felt terrible in the middle of December, high temps etc. My wife got the same in the latter part of December and then it reoccurred with her in January. She was coughing, high temperatures and the like

We were convinced that she had Covid-19 and we paid for an antibody test back in May just to see. Results came back negative for both of us. I think it was £70 each.

Everyone who was ill back around December, January seems to think it was Covid-19, but if Covid-19 was around in the UK back then there would have been old and vulnerable people in hospital seriously ill with it, but there wasn’t any!

[Bibbles]

Who's up for the Russian vaccine?

[3-GT]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

Who's up for the Russian vaccine?

You may get some 'No' voter's switching to 'yes' with that side effect.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by Hooded

Everyone who was ill back around December, January seems to think it was Covid-19, but if Covid-19 was around in the UK back then there would have been old and vulnerable people in hospital seriously ill with it, but there wasn’t any!

It WAS in France in December. That's been confirmed from samples taken from a "pneumonia of unknown causes" patient.


If you don't know anything of coronavirus other than SARS a decade ago, then you're not looking for it.
A couple of patients with it might look like bad pneumonia cases, especially masked by other illnesses as well. If it's not suspicious enough to raise then it can easily slip under the radar at first.

Only once you identify clusters, of similar symptoms in patients that don't fit normal conditions, would you really consider it.
Maybe several hospitals in the UK did have a few patients back in January/February that were undiagnosed as Covid.


What is for sure, is that I and my wife both spent 4-5 days in bed with a debilitating flu-like illness with severe aches and a mild fever, that gave way to a cough that lasted about 3 weeks.
That could have been the SARS-COV-2 virus, but is more likely not to have been, as it it could have been a particularly bad cold virus, leading to a chest infection, or influenza, or something else combined.
Having not had serology tests we don't know.

I know a few friends who all had similar in December-February, so maybe it was something else all going around. Illnesses do spread in winter.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by BBri89

It WAS in France in December. That's been confirmed from samples taken from a "pneumonia of unknown causes" patient.


If you don't know anything of coronavirus other than SARS a decade ago, then you're not looking for it.
A couple of patients with it might look like bad pneumonia cases, especially masked by other illnesses as well. If it's not suspicious enough to raise then it can easily slip under the radar at first.

Only once you identify clusters, of similar symptoms in patients that don't fit normal conditions, would you really consider it.
Maybe several hospitals in the UK did have a few patients back in January/February that were undiagnosed as Covid.


What is for sure, is that I and my wife both spent 4-5 days in bed with a debilitating flu-like illness with severe aches and a mild fever, that gave way to a cough that lasted about 3 weeks.
That could have been the SARS-COV-2 virus, but is more likely not to have been, as it it could have been a particularly bad cold virus, leading to a chest infection, or influenza, or something else combined.
Having not had serology tests we don't know.

I know a few friends who all had similar in December-February, so maybe it was something else all going around. Illnesses do spread in winter.

They were testing for suspected covid-19 in the UK back in January when it was making headline news around the world and there were no cases in January found/detected here in the UK at all.

Looking at the deaths here by the end of March it’s obvious it didn’t reach here until it was detected in February otherwise people would have been in hospital with it much much sooner here. Anyone ill with similar symptoms in December/January is extremely unlikely to have had covid-19.

[Hartside]

Originally Posted by Hooded

Everyone who was ill back around December, January seems to think it was Covid-19, but if Covid-19 was around in the UK back then there would have been old and vulnerable people in hospital seriously ill with it, but there wasn’t any!

I agree but the concern for me was my time spent in China, which is different to the majority of people. Mainly Guangzhou but I spent time up in Xian early December which is about 500 miles from Wuhan and is a tourist magnet for the Chinese. My exposure to it would have been months ahead of the majority of UK people had I had it.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I agree but the concern for me was my time spent in China, which is different to the majority of people. Mainly Guangzhou but I spent time up in Xian early December which is about 500 miles from Wuhan and is a tourist magnet for the Chinese.

That’s a fair point, although Given how contagious covid-19 is (a higher natural R0 than flu etc) I still reckon if people like yourself were bringing it here in December the UK would have been overrun with it much sooner. We have a very dense population here remember which is one of the contributing factors in Britain now having the worst death rate from it in Europe.

[Hartside]

Originally Posted by Hooded

That’s a fair point, although Given how contagious covid-19 is (a higher natural R0 than flu etc) I still reckon if people like yourself were bringing it here in December the UK would have been overrun with it much sooner. We have a very dense population here remember which is one of the contributing factors in Britain now having the worst death rate from it in Europe.

Again, I agree completely. My initial post was meant to show how easy it is to think you have had it when in perhaps you haven’t had it at all, just a seasonal bug or virus.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by Hooded

We have a very dense population here remember which is one of the contributing factors in Britain now having the worst death rate from it in Europe.

That and the fact that
- a positive coronavirus test is not required, only suspected (many ill and old people get chest infections with similar symptoms). There WILL be lots of deaths recorded that were not actually linked to coronavirus. If you look for it you'll find it everywhere, even where it isn't.
- you can NEVER recover from coronavirus at the moment according to PHE. Have it 6 months ago, it'll be on your death certificate next week when you get hit by a bus
- no distinction between "died with SARS-COV-2" (suspected, or from a positive test) which is the actual virus, and "died from COVID-19" which is the actual pneumonia-like disease that SOME coronavirus +ve people get


This is why UK death rate is so high compared to other countries. Each country is recording and reporting differently, and it is not possible or appropriate to compare them as such.


Vast majority of people in UK who have "died with" (which is how we are reporting the numbers) had multiple causes of death, 3 things on their death certificate. For most of these, it is suspected they would have died this year from something anyway.


The real issue was emptying the hospitals ready for the masses by discharging people back into care homes without testing them first.
I'm not being insensitive, I'm being realistic, care homes for the elderly are "gods waiting room". Most people don't spend long in a care home, I think less than 15-18 months is the average. A bad cold or a bad winter flu can wipe out most of a care home anyway.

[DougMcL]

Originally Posted by BBri89

That and the fact that
- a positive coronavirus test is not required, only suspected (many ill and old people get chest infections with similar symptoms). There WILL be lots of deaths recorded that were not actually linked to coronavirus. If you look for it you'll find it everywhere, even where it isn't.
- you can NEVER recover from coronavirus at the moment according to PHE.

That has changed. Death has to be recorded within 28 days of a positive test now in England, which puts it back into line with the other three countries.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by DougMcL

That has changed. Death has to be recorded within 28 days of a positive test now in England, which puts it back into line with the other three countries.

Ok fine now. So wipe the slate clean and compare deaths from now onwards.

They'll be very similar