BMW
X7 and XM
forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos WSJ - America's Love Affair with Driving is Cooling

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-30-2019, 09:47 AM   #23
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY
Banned
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY's Avatar
No_Country
4992
Rep
4,139
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (1)

if only data=love....if only
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 04:02 AM   #24
eluded
2JZ-GTE
eluded's Avatar
Bulgaria
2959
Rep
3,948
Posts

Drives: 340 6MT, 50e, others
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Sofia

iTrader: (0)

Wsj starts their Article with the phoenix light rail is the reason that Americans are driving less miles? You don't need to read the article anymore than to know it's fake news right there.
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 06:26 AM   #25
DriverDaily
Private First Class
226
Rep
198
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Texas

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
All too often, data is manipulated to fit an agenda.
That cuts both ways, ignoring data is also manipulation.
Appreciate 3
alex23642846.50
F32Fleet3539.50
      01-02-2020, 09:39 AM   #26
SteveinArizona
Brigadier General
United_States
3086
Rep
4,210
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

I don't understand why many driving aficionados resist mass transit. It makes room on the road for the rest of us.

I enjoy driving but not in congested rush hour traffic. Many moons ago when I was young I lived in NYC. I sold my car before I moved in and didn't buy one until I had moved out. Sometimes my wife and I would grab a cab from our home in Greenwich Village to uptown and by the time we got to Herald Square (a distance of a couple of miles) we paid off the cab and jumped in the subway. Driving was simply too slow.

Mass transit is great when it works for you. Even when it doesn't, it is socially useful and does help balance traffic demands.
Appreciate 4
Red Bread4462.00
Germanauto9665.50
clee1982796.00
      01-02-2020, 09:43 AM   #27
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
I don't understand why many driving aficionados resist mass transit. It makes room on the road for the rest of us.

I enjoy driving but not in congested rush hour traffic. Many moons ago when I was young I lived in NYC. I sold my car before I moved in and didn't buy one until I had moved out. Sometimes my wife and I would grab a cab from our home in Greenwich Village to uptown and by the time we got to Herald Square (a distance of a couple of miles) we paid off the cab and jumped in the subway. Driving was simply too slow.

Mass transit is great when it works for you. Even when it doesn't, it is socially useful and does help balance traffic demands.
I have nothing against mass transit, the problem is the construction often turns into a boondoggle and its ran poorly. I don't want my tax dollars siphoned off on projects that I'll never utilize and that will become a huge liability.
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 10:13 AM   #28
pennsiveguy
Major
pennsiveguy's Avatar
United_States
3552
Rep
1,062
Posts

Drives: F15 xDrive50i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Edina, MN

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
My personal, anecdotal theory is that millennials are hopeless smartphone-addicted weenies with 10-second attention spans. Unless you built a HUD to project their Instagram feed onto the windshield, they're not going to be interested in driving. Especially after having been told by all their teachers that driving a car is an evil rich white-person atrocity.

Now GET OFF MY LAWN!
__________________
2017 F15 xDrive50i M Sport | Superformance GT40 Roush 511 IR FE
Appreciate 1
eluded2959.00
      01-02-2020, 10:30 AM   #29
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,327
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
When you have ALL data pointing in the same direction, that's a good one.
All the data is not pointing to America's love affair is waning. There re many different factors as to why things happen. The fact that a paper tries to steer readers a particular way to those predisposed lemmings to be living everything they read as gospel is what they thrive and make money on. That's a good one is right.

There are many factors that can account for what's going on. Including high car prices, many are keeping cars longer, cars last longer then they used to, high interest rates and none of it has to do with losing ones 'love' of cars.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin.../#17e370a31063

Not to mention, car sales have always been cyclic. The sky is falling crowd is always quick to jump to conclusions that aren't proven fact merely opinions that are often politically based. That's a good one also.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-since-1951/
Seems you are the one trying to skew data.

Of course sales have been cyclical, down in recessions and up in good times. Except, you ignore falling new car sales in the best economy of the last 50 years. And your source ignore the continued slide in 2019 by omitting the data since 2018, which shows a peak in 2017.

You ignore that used car lots are full and cannot get rid of them.

You ignore gasoline tax revenues are down.

You ignore vehicle registrations are down.

You ignore data showing millennials not obtaining Driver's License and Uber/Lyft use.

You ignore all the cut and dry data only to use data that can be adapted to your spin.
Love FRED stats!

I think we should not try to draw some sort of correlation between miles driven and new vehicle sales. For example:

Telecommuting and gentrification impact both miles, new car sales, tax revenue.

Historically longer loan terms are, IMO, the biggest reason behind reduced sales growth. It obviously takes longer to pay off these loans or at least reach the break-even point where the owner won't take a loss on private sale.

Telecommuting, gentrification, FE standards and hybrid/EV tech have reduced fuel consumption and by extension fuel tax revenues. So changes in revenue are not necessarily indicative of a change in new vehicle purchase decisions.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 10:55 AM   #30
SteveinArizona
Brigadier General
United_States
3086
Rep
4,210
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
I have nothing against mass transit, the problem is the construction often turns into a boondoggle and its ran poorly. I don't want my tax dollars siphoned off on projects that I'll never utilize and that will become a huge liability.
And the mass transit user is having his tax dollars "siphoned off" for road projects he will never use and that become a huge liability.

When did we become "all about me"?
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 10:56 AM   #31
Germanauto
Major General
Germanauto's Avatar
United_States
9666
Rep
6,075
Posts

Drives: Alfa Romeo Giulia, Rosso
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

Lot of good points on both sides. I think there's a lot of truth to the economic arguments but also part of me feels there's a general waning interest in cars as a hobby/passion. In the past there were no cell phones, internet, etc. so automobiles were viewed as a means of freedom and self-expression. Nowadays technology and social media has taken over that role. People are moving back into urban centers so the costs and headaches associated with owning a car play a major role too.

I obviously love cars but I'd love to just take a bus/light rail to work on a daily basis. When I lived in Seattle there was excellent public transportation around the metropolis. Driving didn't save much time due to traffic. I miss having that option.
__________________
Former
-2008 E90 328 black/brown
-2012 Lexus IS250 black/black
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 12:39 PM   #32
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

When I worked in Frankfurt, with easy access to the Autobahn, it still gave me great pleasure to look out the window of the high speed train to Cologne and see the fastest moving cars slowly disappear behind us.

I live in Austin but still work in Dallas. I drive up once a month or so, but would gladly take a high speed train. The environmental impact of such a short flight and the negligible time difference just don't make sense.

As for passion, my five year old strapped himself into the front seat yesterday and furiously jumped up and down on the clutch pedal while randomly shifting gears. Take that, WSJ!
Appreciate 1
JasonCSU699.00
      01-02-2020, 12:43 PM   #33
pennsiveguy
Major
pennsiveguy's Avatar
United_States
3552
Rep
1,062
Posts

Drives: F15 xDrive50i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Edina, MN

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
And the mass transit user is having his tax dollars "siphoned off" for road projects he will never use and that become a huge liability.

When did we become "all about me"?
The mass transit user isn't paying gas taxes or license fees or highway tolls or automobile sales taxes. In most states, those are the sources of highway construction and maintenance funds.
__________________
2017 F15 xDrive50i M Sport | Superformance GT40 Roush 511 IR FE
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 01:20 PM   #34
King_Leonard
Private First Class
155
Rep
173
Posts

Drives: BMW X2 M35i
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: 3rd World Planet

iTrader: (0)

Since I don't have access to WSJ, I will only say that my daily commute does not jibe with this article's title.
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 02:18 PM   #35
aerostar
Major
746
Rep
1,246
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Please remember that you're literally on an auto enthusiasts forum so responses here are not representative of the masses.

We represent 1% or less of the actual car population, just keep that in mind.

I think most people treat their cars as tools to get from A to B.
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 02:57 PM   #36
pennsiveguy
Major
pennsiveguy's Avatar
United_States
3552
Rep
1,062
Posts

Drives: F15 xDrive50i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Edina, MN

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerostar View Post
...I think most people treat their cars as tools to get from A to B.
I think most people are tools. So your theory makes sense.
__________________
2017 F15 xDrive50i M Sport | Superformance GT40 Roush 511 IR FE
Appreciate 1
Rmtt8206.00
      01-02-2020, 03:10 PM   #37
bagekko
Major
bagekko's Avatar
United_States
776
Rep
1,067
Posts

Drives: Lots of BMWs
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: RI/MA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 M4 Vert  [0.00]
2006 Z4M Roadster  [0.00]
1995 540i  [0.00]
2008 BMW M5  [0.00]
2019 i3 Rex  [0.00]
2021 X7 40i MSport  [0.00]
No WSJ access. Is the data based on peoples commuting, errand, and/or leisure miles? Or does it take into account for commercial traffic also?

Without knowing I would call the story and data BS. Total miles driven in this country for all vehicles no way has decreased. Traffic is not improving anywhere because people are driving less. Sure many younger people are less dependent on cars and many within cities may not own cars. But all the miles added with cities and towns flooded by uber, lyft, door dash, etc certainly nearly offsets that some.

The only way the story could possibly make sense is people have to drive less now a days because every town has everything, so people dont have to drive as far as they use to in order to get the same things.

Any story like this that takes some data and then discusses a few factors is just part of an incomplete story, journalism is garbage that they will not connect and investigate all the factors involved because no one will allow them the time and resources to do so. But in todays world you can just throw some data into a story and the masses will believe it.
__________________
2008 M5 6spd, 1995 540i 6spd
2018 M4 Vert Comp, 2019 i3 120ah REX
2021 X7 40i MSport, 2006 Z4M 6spd
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2020, 03:39 PM   #38
nikkisscy
New Member
0
Rep
6
Posts

Drives: bmw e46
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: United Kingdom

iTrader: (0)

hopefully this is true and rest countries follow this example to save some carbon emissions
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2020, 08:26 AM   #39
SteveinArizona
Brigadier General
United_States
3086
Rep
4,210
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
The mass transit user isn't paying gas taxes or license fees or highway tolls or automobile sales taxes. In most states, those are the sources of highway construction and maintenance funds.
Your signature says you are from Minnesota. Local roads in Minnesota are paid for by property taxes. I agree that user taxes pay for much of the cost but not all. Also what about highway patrol, etc. The same would apply in most states.

My point is that in a "society" we take care of each other and use government to meet public needs.
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2020, 09:23 AM   #40
pennsiveguy
Major
pennsiveguy's Avatar
United_States
3552
Rep
1,062
Posts

Drives: F15 xDrive50i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Edina, MN

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Your signature says you are from Minnesota. Local roads in Minnesota are paid for by property taxes. I agree that user taxes pay for much of the cost but not all. Also what about highway patrol, etc. The same would apply in most states.

My point is that in a "society" we take care of each other and use government to meet public needs.
Some of us take a lot better care of our fellow man than they take of us, if you're asserting that care == $.
__________________
2017 F15 xDrive50i M Sport | Superformance GT40 Roush 511 IR FE
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2020, 09:38 AM   #41
m3rock41
New Member
5
Rep
13
Posts

Drives: m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverDaily View Post
That cuts both ways, ignoring data is also manipulation.

We are now a society that openly celebrates ignorance and stupidity. Who needs data when you can make things up or form a wild conspiracy theory.
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2020, 02:05 PM   #42
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3rock41 View Post
We are now a society that openly celebrates ignorance and stupidity. Who needs data when you can make things up or form a wild conspiracy theory.
We also live in a society where the truth can be whisked away when it's not convenient, simply by slapping the "conspiracy theory" label on it.
Appreciate 1
      01-03-2020, 02:44 PM   #43
jimbobiggens
Lieutenant
jimbobiggens's Avatar
United_States
839
Rep
440
Posts

Drives: 2013 335i xDrive
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: jackson tn

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
As a kid, the way we would interact with other kids was to get out of the house on the weekend and go to the local hangout. The kids in my town would make a circle from one end of town to the other end, round and round, all night. It was all about interacting with other kids without any adults around, it was about showing off your car, what you did to it over the last week and try to sneak in a burnout or two. It was face to face interactions, Mustang VS Camaro drag races, that kind of thing. It was all about the car, to be seen in a cool car.

There is no more endless circling in Jackson on a Saturday night. Technology has changed that. Now it's all online hangouts. So, yeah, as far as the younger generation goes, the car is no longer a means to go see friends, but is just a tool to go to point A from point B.
__________________
I'm not completely useless, I can be used as a bad example.
Appreciate 3
      01-06-2020, 08:41 PM   #44
GenXer
Major
United_States
1351
Rep
1,031
Posts

Drives: Like a bat out of hell.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: here and there

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Here are my 2 cents why America's love affair with driving ended:

1. Environmental movement. Green house emission, pollutants etc.

2. People's love of virtual reality. Why do it for real when you can play on the Xbox

3. Domestic vehicle are no longer exciting. The exception being Corvette, Mustang etc., the rest are quite lackluster. Ford and GM are already stopping car production and concentrating on trucks.

4. Insurance cost

5. Price of new vehicle and steep depreciation.

6. Crumbling infrastructure. Personally, I lost a new Corvette C7 because of Michigan's bad road.

7. Infrastructure that can no longer support the amount of vehicles being produced hence the massive traffic jams.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 AM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST