2009 Porsche 997

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

What is up with "pushing forward" the buttons to get an upshift and "pulling back" to get a down shift, sounds like a japanese way of doing things. that alone would turn me away from the PDK......and really, the buttons are more like an option you would find in a Mazada (not ripping on those cars mind you because they are good in their own right) trying to appear sporty. Every other "Duel-Clutch" or "sequential manual gearbox" in the world uses paddles.

Pushing forward for upshifts and pulling back for downshifts is so wrong in every way.....

So against the standards set by DTM, F1....heck I would still love to have a column based sequential shifter like the touring cars of the 1990s.

Then there is Chrysler using left and right for upshifts and down....this is not even worth commenting. I also hate the Step paddleshifters.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by yemenmocha

I'm fairly new here and cannot believe the level of civility compared to another M3 forum that I've visited for years.

Is this the adult M3 forum? Such calm, polite, & reasonable discussion here... no fanboy moderators? no claims that the M3 is better than the 997S in every conceivable way, and superior to the GTR also? What gives?

Definitely not, nothing but respect here. Remember, many of us on these forums find the Porsche and the M3 very close and a tough choice. Even for those of us who wouldn't buy the Porsche (assuming we could afford it) we still respect her for being one of the benchmarks for performance and for a "enthusiasts car" versus other performers who may not be consider as much (cough....GTR). Basically, M3 owners and 911 owners I think are similar in more ways then anyone might think. Both GREAT CARS, and that is something I think everyone can agree on.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Pushing forward for upshifts and pulling back for downshifts is so wrong in every way.....

Then there is Chrysler using left and right for upshifts and down....this is not even worth commenting. I also hate the Step paddleshifters.

I know, really........

[dechoong]

For those interested... a comparison of the power charts between the new DI engine of the Carrera S with that of the older version with Powerkit.

[E394KEN]

Love the new MK2, and have always had a fondness for the the P car. I think the MDCT is more intuitive than the new PDK, but for the clutchless fans like myself Im glad that they offer it. I never really cared for the tip on the 997. I still believe that the next step for the M driver is the P. Especially in light of the new 998 or 991 whatever they call it coming out in a few years. For the sake of aesthetics the 911 is a Pure form with a great lineage. The M is a contemporary all around great car.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by E394KEN

Love the new MK2, and have always had a fondness for the the P car. I think the MDCT is more intuitive than the new PDK, but for the clutchless fans like myself Im glad that they offer it. I never really cared for the tip on the 997. I still believe that the next step for the M driver is the P. Especially in light of the new 998 or 991 whatever they call it coming out in a few years. For the sake of aesthetics the 911 is a Pure form with a great lineage. The M is a contemporary all around great car.

+1

Couldn't have phrase it better.

The new DI engine doesn't have a dip in the torque band like the old one. Also, its efficiency is simply amazing

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by dechoong

For those interested... a comparison of the power charts between the new DI engine of the Carrera S with that of the older version with Powerkit.

Nice torque gains but still nowhere near as flat or broad of a torque curve as the M3.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Nice torque gains but still nowhere near as flat or broad of a torque curve as the M3.

I don't deny the M3's powerband is more linear, whereas the 911S DI engine seems to have a step up in delivery after 4000rpm.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Nice torque gains but still nowhere near as flat or broad of a torque curve as the M3.

Uh, it is a smaller motor with 2 less cylinder than the M3 yet it produces more peak torque at lower revs. The M3 curve may appear more broad, but it is a longer powerband. Either way, it is a testament to Porsche engineering they can produce more torque with a smaller 6 cylinder.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Uh, it is a smaller motor with 2 less cylinder than the M3 yet it produces more peak torque at lower revs. The M3 curve may appear more broad, but it is a longer powerband. Either way, it is a testament to Porsche engineering they can produce more torque with a smaller 6 cylinder.

Because it has bigger cylinders....and all of this this doesn't matter unless you are cruising on a highway or putting around.

The only thing that matters for performance cars is the torque in the last 3000 rpm of the rev range.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Uh, it is a smaller motor with 2 less cylinder than the M3 yet it produces more peak torque at lower revs. The M3 curve may appear more broad, but it is a longer powerband. Either way, it is a testament to Porsche engineering they can produce more torque with a smaller 6 cylinder.

The specific torque output (torque per liter) is indeed impressive. This is exactly what the DI is providing. The plateau in torque in the 997 is nice but the way it falls off at high rpm is not good. It is a larger % drop compared to the M3 and drops off much more sharply. You will feel this.

Other than that I do agree with T Bone above: When really on the boogie only the last 3k rpm or so matter. For daily driveability that is another concern, but here again with the very nice broad and flat torque curve in the M3 it is superior in this regard.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Because it has bigger cylinders....and all of this this doesn't matter unless you are cruising on a highway or putting around.

The only thing that matters for performance cars is the torque in the last 3000 rpm of the rev range.

Oh, right, torque down low doesn't matter because all anyone in a performance car does is sit at redline. All around driveability is important and you have to GET to the freaking higher revs. Do you have to put a BMW fanboy spin on everything?

The total displacement is lower yet it makes more torque than the v8, ridiculously impressive. Better mileage and less emissions too but hey, porsche doesn't innovate right?

What matters for performance cars is the power to weight ratio and power under the curve (the whole thing, not just the part that looks best to you).

[BMW-videos.com]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Oh, right, torque down low doesn't matter because all anyone in a performance car does is sit at redline. All around driveability is important and you have to GET to the freaking higher revs. Do you have to put a BMW fanboy spin on everything?

The total displacement is lower yet it makes more torque than the v8, ridiculously impressive. Better mileage and less emissions too but hey, porsche doesn't innovate right?

What matters for performance cars is the power to weight ratio and power under the curve (the whole thing, not just the part that looks best to you).

Making more torque with less displacement is indeed commendable.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The specific torque output (torque per liter) is indeed impressive. This is exactly what the DI is providing. The plateau in torque in the 997 is nice but the way it falls off at high rpm is not good. It is a larger % drop compared to the M3 and drops off much more sharply. You will feel this.

Other than that I do agree with T Bone above: When really on the boogie only the last 3k rpm or so matter. For daily driveability that is another concern, but here again with the very nice broad and flat torque curve in the M3 it is superior in this regard.

You won't feel it because if you look at the graph the HP is still rising. Horsepower is torque x rpm / 5250. What happens is even with the torque falling off at redline the hp increases with the revs. The pull will be very smooth and strong until the limiter. Remember, they also had to leave themselves room for the X51 kit. That package will add hp up top and most likely increase revs as it did previously. Porsche is hardly stressing the platform.

BMW plays this game well as they rev the shit out of their motor to makeup for the lack of torque as well as use tremendous torque mulitiplication in the gearing.

What direct injection provided is chiefly the bump in compression ratio. Porsche makes ridiculous torque per liter without direct injection in the GT3. I have yet to see another vehicle producing as much wheel hp per liter and as much wheel torque per liter. The 997 GT3 dyno's in the 370 wheel range, mind boggling. Kind of makes you wonder how they will outdo themselves again.

Either way, the facelifted 997S is going to be kicking ass and taking names.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Sticky

You won't feel it because if you look at the graph the HP is still rising. Horsepower is torque x rpm / 5250. What happens is even with the torque falling off at redline the hp increases with the revs. The pull will be very smooth and strong until the limiter.

Are we looking at the same graph? The power does not continue to rise the torque falls enough that even the higher revs do not make more power. I think you are looking at the old engine graphs. As well I beg to differ about the feel and I will bet you will be able to feel the sharp kink in the power curve at 6500 rpm.

Originally Posted by Sticky

What direct injection provided is chiefly the bump in compression ratio.

Uhhh no. DI does not provide a higher compression ratio, that is purely a function of the piston size/shape and cylinder size/shape. DI will in general provide more specific torque output.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Are we looking at the same graph? The power does not continue to rise the torque falls enough that even the higher revs do not make more power. I think you are looking at the old engine graphs. As well I beg to differ about the feel and I will bet you will be able to feel the sharp kink in the power curve at 6500 rpm.



Uhhh no. DI does not provide a higher compression ratio, that is purely a function of the piston size/shape and cylinder size/shape. DI will in general provide more specific torque output.

Uhhhhhhhh no your uhhh no direct injection allows higher compression more safely on a naturally aspirated motor than it does without. Charge cooling due to fuel evaporation in a direct injection engine typically allows for an increased compression ratio.

The M3 went from 11.5:1 to 12:0:1. The carrera S was already at 11.8:1 before DI and now goes to 12.5:1 along with the standard carrera.


I am looking at the same graph as you, the torque falls off, the power no longer rises but does not drop along with the torque due to the increase in revs. In order to make more power, as the X51 will, they will add torque up top I am sure with head work (as they did previously) and a higher redline. You act like this motor suddenly dies, as if you have driven it.

[footie]

I agree with sticky, BMW have good engineers but Porsche have great engineers. With the exception of their dogged persistence of keeping their rear engined 911 and finally getting the thing to handle after 40 years I would class their ability above all others.

P.S.
We have enough torque vs horsepower, 335i vs M3 and How much power has the GTR debates to last us a lifetime.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

I agree with sticky, BMW have good engineers but Porsche have great engineers. With the exception of their dogged persistence of keeping their rear engined 911 and finally getting the thing to handle after 40 years I would class their ability above all others.

P.S.
We have enough torque vs horsepower, 335i vs M3 and How much power has the GTR debates to last us a lifetime.

They are all great cars with great engineers, it is just the usual internet car forum nonsense.

What Porsche has done with this car bodes very well for the 911 and where they are taking the GT3 and Turbo platforms next. Seems like they will keep the 911 going forever, but their mid-engine platform can't be held back forever.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

They are all great cars with great engineers, it is just the usual internet car forum nonsense.

I didn't want to get into the debate on torque vs horsepower on another thread, both are equally important to the performance of a car and to think otherwise is silly.

Originally Posted by Sticky

What Porsche has done with this car bodes very well for the 911 and where they are taking the GT3 and Turbo platforms next.

The GT3 and Turbo will be interesting to watch how Porsche can improve on what are already pretty amazing machines, especially so the GT3. I think almost all of the improvements on these two cars will come from DI and the gearbox as the rest of the package is already right up there with the best on offer.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Seems like they will keep the 911 going forever, but their mid-engine platform can't be held back forever.

I have been saying as much since the original Boxster first graced our streets, much as I appreciate the 911 I feel it time for Porsche to take the final step and give the Boxster and Cayman the power their chassis deserves and can cope with.

[devo]

Originally Posted by footie

I didn't want to get into the debate on torque vs horsepower on another thread, both are equally important to the performance of a car and to think otherwise is silly.



The GT3 and Turbo will be interesting to watch how Porsche can improve on what are already pretty amazing machines, especially so the GT3. I think almost all of the improvements on these two cars will come from DI and the gearbox as the rest of the package is already right up there with the best on offer.



I have been saying as much since the original Boxster first graced our streets, much as I appreciate the 911 I feel it time for Porsche to take the final step and give the Boxster and Cayman the power their chassis deserves and can cope with.

The facelifted turbo is rumored to have an even broader torque spread than it already has, with even less turbo lag. The engine will also benefit from a roughly 11 lb. weight loss, being fit lower in the chassis and of course better throttle response from DI. Peak hp will rise to 500-505, but the mid-range is what should be very, very impressive. Add the revised PASM and this should be one great turbo.

The GTR may still beat it at the track, but the 997tt will own the GTR in any straight line acceleration, imo.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by devo

The facelifted turbo is rumored to have an even broader torque spread than it already has, with even less turbo lag. The engine will also benefit from a roughly 11 lb. weight loss, being fit lower in the chassis and of course better throttle response from DI. Peak hp will rise to 500-505, but the mid-range is what should be very, very impressive. Add the revised PASM and this should be one great turbo.

The GTR may still beat it at the track, but the 997tt will own the GTR in any straight line acceleration, imo.

I think the current 997tt will outrun the GT-R in the straight if it had PDK, not to mention the updated version. Any idea whether Porsche is still using the venerable 3.6L block for the updated 997tt?

The 997S with DI already quoted 9.3s from 0-100mph with launch control, which is fast enough for me.

[devo]

Originally Posted by dechoong

I think the current 997tt will outrun the GT-R in the straight if it had PDK, not to mention the updated version. Any idea whether Porsche is still using the venerable 3.6L block for the updated 997tt?

The 997S with DI already quoted 9.3s from 0-100mph with launch control, which is fast enough for me.

Yes, the current tt can out run the GTR even without PDK. The new engine alone will just add distance. Add PDK and the new tt will walk the GTR.

There is speculation that Porsche may abandon the 3.6l for the 3.8l. However, one thing that is certain is that PAG will cease production of the current GT1 block, which has been race proven for years. Although, many diehards are upset by this, I welcome the updated engine. Time will tell if it is as over-engineered as the current GT1, but even if it's not, it will certainly be stout enough to handle more that the engine's power output. How much power the new block will handle remains to be seen. I have heard that the current GT1 block can safely handle over 700 hp. If one did not intend to heavily mod the new tt, the next generation block should be a better choice.

These launch control dual clutch transmission runs are meaningless to me. I will opt for the standard standard; pun intended. In-gear runs are so much more important to me. The new tt should be heaven to drive.