[Neil McRae]

I had a F90 but thought it was terrible. I couldn't get over the auto gearbox which I think is terrible. Auto handbrake on an M?! Nothing made me happier than belting it on a twisty road banging up and down the gears on the DCT, just went out for a drive this morning around Woking towards Adlershot though some back roads and loved every minute of it.

So got back in my F10 and love it, the car is one of BMW's best in my view (I also have an F82 which was disappointing compared to the E92). Anyway the F10 is coming up to 5 years old, longest I've owned any car and I'm thinking of what next. F90 with DCT would have been a total no brainer but the auto just made me think the car was lifeless.

Thus what are you folks who have had that car for a while now think about it, especially the gearbox? Would love to hear from folks who had F10.

For the first time in the last twenty years I'm seriously considering buying a different brand (any recommendations with DCT type gearbox?). I went through a lot of changes over those years with BMW M but the true spirit of M, driving enjoyment, in all the cars was always there, through the steering debacles, changing to turbo through awesome innovations like SMG and DCT. I can honestly say that SMG and DCT where key things that kept me with BMW. Now anyone can do an auto...

Note please don't take this as some sort of attack of the car, other than the gearbox the F90 is fantastic but the enjoyment of driving just doesn't seem so good as the F10. Those of you who have a F90 and had an F10 I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks,
Neil.

[borys]

Keep F10 and get e60 + extended warranty. You'll love it

[devondragon]

Never had an F10 but did have an F13 for a while (which I loved). F90’s AWD means faster acceleration and better all-weather use (I live in Colorado). Honestly I find the paddle shifters to be as good as I remember the DCT in the F13 or the E92 (my previous M car). I run S3, Sport+, Sport, Sport+. If you were in a different mode perhaps that was the issue? I honestly don’t miss the DCT at all. *shrug*. I miss the coupe lines of my F13, but enjoy everything else about the F90 much better.

[Nikolov]

I'm with you on the slushbox in the F90, OP. I recently switched from F10 to F90 and I absolutely hate the auto transmission. There's literally nothing good about it, compared to the DCT, unless you drive in D mode all the time (which apparently most people around here do). If you want sharp shifts, proper engine braking and generally feel connected to the drivetrain - you won't get that in the F90. Even shifting manually feels weird. It's not slow, compared to the DCT, just feels disconnected.

Still, the F90 is the better/faster car, even if the slushbox makes it feel dull. Having traction in all gears and conditions is something that makes a very big difference. The F90 also feels much lighter, which combined with the AWD allows you to take corners much, much faster.

[Simon H]

What brand are you thinking of switching to ?.

[3sgte]

I can see where you're coming from, having an owned an F10.

However, it takes time to get used to the ZF gearbox. I've been using my F90 for around 3 months now as a daily. Took the A46 from Stratford to the M5 the other night, whilst giving it some on M2 mode (Max) and i'd say its every bit as good as the DCT with the added comfort of a full-on Auto.

It's taken a good few months. But i'd say its a better experience than the old DCT...

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by Neil McRae

I had a F90 but thought it was terrible. I couldn't get over the auto gearbox which I think is terrible. Auto handbrake on an M?! Nothing made me happier than belting it on a twisty road banging up and down the gears on the DCT, just went out for a drive this morning around Woking towards Adlershot though some back roads and loved every minute of it.

So got back in my F10 and love it, the car is one of BMW's best in my view (I also have an F82 which was disappointing compared to the E92). Anyway the F10 is coming up to 5 years old, longest I've owned any car and I'm thinking of what next. F90 with DCT would have been a total no brainer but the auto just made me think the car was lifeless.

Thus what are you folks who have had that car for a while now think about it, especially the gearbox? Would love to hear from folks who had F10.

For the first time in the last twenty years I'm seriously considering buying a different brand (any recommendations with DCT type gearbox?). I went through a lot of changes over those years with BMW M but the true spirit of M, driving enjoyment, in all the cars was always there, through the steering debacles, changing to turbo through awesome innovations like SMG and DCT. I can honestly say that SMG and DCT where key things that kept me with BMW. Now anyone can do an auto...

Note please don't take this as some sort of attack of the car, other than the gearbox the F90 is fantastic but the enjoyment of driving just doesn't seem so good as the F10. Those of you who have a F90 and had an F10 I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks,
Neil.

Read this:
https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...52&postcount=1

The F90 is a better car than any of my prior Ms with DCTs (3 x F10s, 2 x F06s) but the transmission isn't. The ZF works really quite well once the 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd shifts are dealt with; downshifts in the higher gears are also quick. But it's the lower gears when on it from a dig where it drives me .

However, there is no world in which I would take back either my F10 M5s or my M6 GCs--the F90 simply clobbers them in just about every other respect.

[dappercivility]

I haven had the fortune of owning the F10 M5 but I did drive the E92 M3 with DCT on a few occasions, the gearshifts in the dct is more brutal and felt more mechanical in the way it engages gears and whatnot. Especially when moving off from a standstill, u can feel the clutch engaging at the biting point and felt more "connected" in that sense including the gearshifts while on the move. I think thats the main difference.

[yujini]

I personally think dct, zf auto are the same thing. I agree that dct shifts were a tad faster.
Even though people hated the smg for e60 and e46, i really enjoyed the transmission.
After e60, dct, or zf, I just plainly use auto most of the time.
No drama shifting either one.
I recommend you get an e60 m5.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by yujini

I personally think dct, zf auto are the same thing. I agree that dct shifts were a tad faster.
Even though people hated the smg for e60 and e46, i really enjoyed the transmission.
After e60, dct, or zf, I just plainly use auto most of the time.
No drama shifting either one.
I recommend you get an e60 m5.

That's a rare position on the E60's SMG. I drove the E60 M5 and instead took a 550i--that SMG was abysmal (in my opinion).

How many miles have you done in say an F10 DCT and an F90 ZF? Those miles are necessary to make an informed opinion.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by dappercivility

I haven had the fortune of owning the F10 M5 but I did drive the E92 M3 with DCT on a few occasions, the gearshifts in the dct is more brutal and felt more mechanical in the way it engages gears and whatnot. Especially when moving off from a standstill, u can feel the clutch engaging at the biting point and felt more "connected" in that sense including the gearshifts while on the move. I think thats the main difference.

Yup, that's a good description and certainly part of it... but it is only part of the story. The ZF convulses between the lower gears when in hard-shift modes but not always, only when it's apparently had enough--enough seemingly due to being too hot.

[Simon H]

My own opinion of the ZF is, thats its very nearly as quick as a DCT, when changing up, unless you are really on it, and changing at the very last rpm, where it can feel like it is slower to change. The shifts are smoother, so less thump in the back etc, if that is what you want to feel. I recently drove a few M cars on track, and jumped from one straight to another, and you CAN! feel the differences quite readily.
Overall i think the F90 is simply superior in every other way than the F10, after owning both, and i know im probably in the minority here, but i think the standard M5 is the sweet spot also, with how it is set up, as i think it suits our UK roads remarkably well.

[JK-M5]

So i had the F10 for 4 years i covered 42k miles in that time and made the jump to the F90 in December last year all i can say is that car was an absolute joy to own.
previously had a C63 before that, that had the Auto box that where now have in discussion so i understand going from the Auto to DCT then Back to Auto again feels like, but the modern ZF box feels world apart better than that old 63 had!.

On a personal level i have only covered 3k miles since that time in the new car and only just have accepted the change in the drive and the a niggles with the box, but now its growing on me more by the day, for not just the feel you get from it when its on the boil around country back lanes but the feel when your driving it at low speeds, days out with the family etc, the car just feels loads more versatile in the comfort zone than the F10 did.

I had numerous issues with he DCT in the F10 and had the clutch changed on it at just 20k miles and the car was not modified, that was down to a shudder when reversing and jerky gear changes at low speeds, after i had the clutch done i covered another 20k miles and the shudder came back so i think there was an issue underlying with the DCT in general, even a BMW tech said to me one day that when they work on M cars with DCT loads of these cars shudder in reverse that come through the dealership for work and it just a niggle across the range, so i take his word for it being at BMW since he was an apprentice with them.

other areas of the car are arguably the same like the straight line power, i have a friend with a heavily modified F80 the old F10 always had the gains on him top end on our European road trips down Autobahns but recently we tried the F90 and there was literally nothing in it so it pro's and cons, i assume its down to the 4 wheel drive system taking some of that energy away. unless someone else has a better explanation.

I will certainly own another F10 1 day as they the buzz of the rear wheel is what keeps you on your toes, but sadly when the product gets superseded its normally tough to go back but i do get the argument here.

[CarlosM4]

Owned F10, and F06 extensively and have owned a F90 for almost 8 months now. Totally disagree. The Auto Gearbox is a bit clunky in the 1st to 2nd upshift, but other than that it is single handedly one of the best transmissions I have used. It is quick, it is effective, and smooth when you don't want speed. But I will conceed I preferred the M-DCT.

Other than that the F90 is so superior in pretty much every single feature and performance, that I don't see why someone would make the downgrade back.

[somer]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

Owned F10, and F06 extensively and have owned a F90 for almost 8 months now. Totally disagree. The Auto Gearbox is a bit clunky in the 1st to 2nd upshift, but other than that it is single handedly one of the best transmissions I have used. It is quick, it is effective, and smooth when you don't want speed. But I will conceed I preferred the M-DCT.

Other than that the F90 is so superior in pretty much every single feature and performance, that I don't see why someone would make the downgrade back.

Definitely clunky that's for sure, the whole car bucking on shifts is really a turn off after the seamless acceleration the DCT provides. BMW adopting the DCT back in 2008 for the E92 M3 was a great move and they really should have stuck with their decision and developed their software even furtherto be as seamless as Porsche has done with the PDK, but alas they took the easy way out. Just ZF8 every single one of their cars, it's a real shame.

But, like everyone else, the F90 is an upgrade in every single other department which for 90%+ of people is enough to look past the slushbox.

[Elanderholm]

I had an f10 for 3.3 yrs, no contest. My f90 is better in about ever conceivable way, minus complexity.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Elanderholm

I had an f10 for 3.3 yrs, no contest. My f90 is better in about ever conceivable way, minus complexity.

Totally agree. I had an e90 M3, and F10 M5, and now have an F90 base M5.

The best transmission on any of these cars by a substantial margin was on the M3 but I love the F90 M5. One of the reasons I didn't really like my F10 M5 much was that there was just way too much power for the chassis. I just couldn't get into it below probably 50 mph without huge tire spin, fishtailing, and traction control kicking in, which is ridiculous.

The F90 is better in every way than the F10, imo.

[DingolfingLove]

Went from a F10 M5 to F90 M5 Comp - just completed 1st service.

I agree with some comments, the DCT felt more connected, with better engine braking & it had a nice pop on the upshift.

The F10 demanded care & respect in driving, as it easily lost traction. The downside is that every now and again, when I wasn't completely concentrating, I would get a sudden/unwanted wake up call.

From the relatively short test drive I had, the F90 M5's suspension felt too similar (for me) to the F10 and it wasn't enough of a step up. I liked the car, but was left a bit cold by it, as I found the whole car too slushy. The M5C feels entirely different, more dialled in & I prefer the drive. The suspension is so good - as compliant as it needs to be, but whereas in the F10, I would struggle on a certain corner at 90mph, the M5C apexes the same corner at 105 and keeps accelerating!

Overall, the F90 M5 comp is far more capable & safer. The F10 M5 was still incredible & I loved it, but I prefer the mix of increased performance and the reassurance the M5C provides, just wish it would pop on the upshift !

[hybrid_eg]

Originally Posted by CarlosM4

Owned F10, and F06 extensively and have owned a F90 for almost 8 months now. Totally disagree. The Auto Gearbox is a bit clunky in the 1st to 2nd upshift, but other than that it is single handedly one of the best transmissions I have used. It is quick, it is effective, and smooth when you don't want speed. But I will conceed I preferred the M-DCT.

Other than that the F90 is so superior in pretty much every single feature and performance, that I don't see why someone would make the downgrade back.

agree in every way.. i think I would get used to the ZF box quicker if i didn't drive the F85 on the weekends which i enjoy too much, brings back M-DCT / ZF controversy on weekly basis..

[Simon H]

Originally Posted by DingolfingLove

Went from a F10 M5 to F90 M5 Comp - just completed 1st service.

I agree with some comments, the DCT felt more connected, with better engine braking & it had a nice pop on the upshift.

The F10 demanded care & respect in driving, as it easily lost traction. The downside is that every now and again, when I wasn't completely concentrating, I would get a sudden/unwanted wake up call.

From the relatively short test drive I had, the F90 M5's suspension felt too similar (for me) to the F10 and it wasn't enough of a step up. I liked the car, but was left a bit cold by it, as I found the whole car too slushy. The M5C feels entirely different, more dialled in & I prefer the drive. The suspension is so good - as compliant as it needs to be, but whereas in the F10, I would struggle on a certain corner at 90mph, the M5C apexes the same corner at 105 and keeps accelerating!

Overall, the F90 M5 comp is far more capable & safer. The F10 M5 was still incredible & I loved it, but I prefer the mix of increased performance and the reassurance the M5C provides, just wish it would pop on the upshift !

Damned OPF filters

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Mboy

So i had the F10 for 4 years i covered 42k miles in that time and made the jump to the F90 in December last year all i can say is that car was an absolute joy to own.
previously had a C63 before that, that had the Auto box that where now have in discussion so i understand going from the Auto to DCT then Back to Auto again feels like, but the modern ZF box feels world apart better than that old 63 had!.

On a personal level i have only covered 3k miles since that time in the new car and only just have accepted the change in the drive and the a niggles with the box, but now its growing on me more by the day, for not just the feel you get from it when its on the boil around country back lanes but the feel when your driving it at low speeds, days out with the family etc, the car just feels loads more versatile in the comfort zone than the F10 did.

I had numerous issues with he DCT in the F10 and had the clutch changed on it at just 20k miles and the car was not modified, that was down to a shudder when reversing and jerky gear changes at low speeds, after i had the clutch done i covered another 20k miles and the shudder came back so i think there was an issue underlying with the DCT in general, even a BMW tech said to me one day that when they work on M cars with DCT loads of these cars shudder in reverse that come through the dealership for work and it just a niggle across the range, so i take his word for it being at BMW since he was an apprentice with them.

other areas of the car are arguably the same like the straight line power, i have a friend with a heavily modified F80 the old F10 always had the gains on him top end on our European road trips down Autobahns but recently we tried the F90 and there was literally nothing in it so it pro's and cons, i assume its down to the 4 wheel drive system taking some of that energy away. unless someone else has a better explanation.

I will certainly own another F10 1 day as they the buzz of the rear wheel is what keeps you on your toes, but sadly when the product gets superseded its normally tough to go back but i do get the argument here.

Originally Posted by Mboy

other areas of the car are arguably the same like the straight line power, i have a friend with a heavily modified F80 the old F10 always had the gains on him top end on our European road trips down Autobahns but recently we tried the F90 and there was literally nothing in it so it pro's and cons, i assume its down to the 4 wheel drive system taking some of that energy away. unless someone else has a better explanation.

.

It's possible. On Sport Auto's super test, neither F90 standard and competition topped 2014 F10 M5C's trap speed at the ring's longest straight. They were obviously tested at different days but F10's top end pull is formidable.

But some believe it's only the early batch of F10/F13 competitions that are this fast, specifically the 2014 year. AutoBild tested 2014 M6C (575HP) and ran a 0-300km in the 30s but when they tested 2016 M6C (600HP), it was over 35 seconds. Regardless of tested at different days, 5 seconds is a significant difference and perpetuate the myth.

What year was your F10?

[ambletx]

Here's my crack at it. Keep in mind that I have only had my F90 for a month now, and again these are just my opinions/observations.

Pros:
The tech is AMAZING. I found out accidentally that the car actually self drives (driver assist). That was an interesting thing, but was fun to play with afterward

Its quick! Mind bogglingly quick. The AWD lets this car get off the line in a hurry. My F10 (M5) with DSC (traction control) off, revs to 4000 RPM, dump the clutch, and the nose is not going to be pointing in the direction that you wanted it to be.

The seats are a huge improvement over the F10 (M5). Very supportive, and comfortable. You don’t feel like you’re going to slide out the door, or into the passenger seat in the bends

Zero turbo lag (that I can detect). The power delivery is very smooth unlike the F10 (M5) where when the turbos spool hang on (especially if DSC is fully off).

It feels very nimble compared to the F10 (M5). I get that its 400lbs lighter, but this car handles like the F80 (M3) where as the F10 (M5) feels like a tank that corners very well. The F90 (M5) gives you more confidence that you’re not going to lose it in the twisties, where the F10 (M5) feels like it will be an off road excursion at any minute. This thing just sticks. I have a much higher degree of confidence in the bends than I do with the F10 (M5).

Launch control couldn’t be any simpler. With other BMWs, or any car with launch control for that matter it was akin to getting 99 lives on Contra on the old school Nintendo. You had to do this elaborate sequence, up up down down left right left right b a select start…. In the F90 (M5) you configure one of your M buttons to have Sport Plus on everything, transmission to S3, and DSC off. Then you simply engage the M button, push the brake, hammer down the throttle, when the flags appear, take your foot off the brake.



Cons:
The car is quiet, and I mean really quiet even with the loud button on for the open exhaust. I had to roll down the windows to hear it growl and bark. The F10 (M5) just seems to have a more aggressive symphony from the tail pipes.

It’s an automatic, period. While the ZF8 shifts extremely fast for an auto, its no where near the F80’s (M3) DCT or Porsche PDK. However, its light years ahead of the 6L90 auto in my old CTS-V. Granted, I couldn’t/can’t shift my F10 (M5) anywhere close to what most autos nowadays are capable of, its still a joy to drive an actual manual.

The doors feel light and flimsy. Both of my M5s have “soft close” doors, but the F90 (M5) feel cheap compared to the F10 (M5) which feels like they were better engineered and not an afterthought.

The Bang and Olfusen stereo in the F10 (M5) is, in my opinion, a better sounding stereo than the Bowers and Wilkins in the F90 (M5). Its hard to explain, but the B&O system just sounds clearer with better highs and lows. I would venture to say that the standard Harman Kardon system would probably be a better option, and save $$ as well.

The HUD on the F10 (M5) is better than the F90 (M5). The dials, numbers, and information in general are easier to read, and the placement is better