[LittleJoe]

Funny you should mention JLR aligning with a strategic partner, check this out:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-for-partners

[ppagiga]

Originally Posted by LittleJoe

Funny you should mention JLR aligning with a strategic partner, check this out:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-for-partners

I recall seeing that a while back. Really goes to show what a pivotal make or break moment of transition this is for the industry.

I wonder though: What can BMW Group get from JLR beyond the cost sharing?

[iconoclast]

Originally Posted by unotaz

So what's the catch? They use inferior parts and crappy reliability.

I am not sure which inferior parts you are referring to but majority of the bad rep LR/RR receives comes from their days of BMW ownership with BMW parts. Secondly, look at the first page of this forum or any model forum on here and tell me who is not complaining about one issue or another? The more complicated vehicles get the more issues will occur especially on a new model or completely new line.

[vink]

Originally Posted by iconoclast

I am not sure which inferior parts you are referring to but majority of the bad rep LR/RR receives comes from their days of BMW ownership with BMW parts. Secondly, look at the first page of this forum or any model forum on here and tell me who is not complaining about one issue or another? The more complicated vehicles get the more issues will occur especially on a new model or completely new line.

RR is the least reliable brand in the whole industry and whether it was owned by BMW, Ford or TATA, it's plagued by huge issues, starting from electronics, engine and so on. Some are lucky, most aren't! Votes go by majority.
My friend is waiting for last 2 months to get parts to fix his rear bumper for a small fender bender. One of my friend tired of going to dealer, learned to fix things on his own over the period of time for the love of RR.

[ppagiga]

Originally Posted by iconoclast

I am not sure which inferior parts you are referring to but majority of the bad rep LR/RR receives comes from their days of BMW ownership with BMW parts. Secondly, look at the first page of this forum or any model forum on here and tell me who is not complaining about one issue or another? The more complicated vehicles get the more issues will occur especially on a new model or completely new line.

Man I love Ranges for what they are but I’ve experienced their reliability issues before/after/during BMW.

As for X7 between mine and my x5 so far so good. No issues. Maybe I’ll have some maybe I won’t. But I’m pretty certain whatever issues I have won’t be as offensive as the ones I’ve had over 20 years of Range Rover ownership. Stuff that shouldn’t fail at any price point

[unotaz]

Let's start with the brakes and the air suspension. The brakes are undersized and overworked. The RR flagship isn't really heavy for a SUV in its category, yet it needs a full brake pad replacement every year and rotor replacement every 18-24 months?! My wife's RR needed new brake pads every 13000 miles. It's like clockwork, regardless of how gentle you drive the car.

Things like this doesn't happen on a Porsche . Even my first generation X5 that I owned back in my early 20s didn't need new brake pads every year.

Air suspension fail rate on the RR is about 35% higher than the industry normal. RR uses the same supplier for their air suspension as some of the Mercedes/BMW cars but how come RR fail rate is so much higher? What do you think that is? It all comes down to cost my friend.

You get what you paid for, and in RR's case, they don't pay much to their suppliers on these components.

And don't get me started on the clips on some of the interior panels. RR uses a bunch of one-time clips that breaks when you remove and reinstall.

Originally Posted by iconoclast

I am not sure which inferior parts you are referring to but majority of the bad rep LR/RR receives comes from their days of BMW ownership with BMW parts. Secondly, look at the first page of this forum or any model forum on here and tell me who is not complaining about one issue or another? The more complicated vehicles get the more issues will occur especially on a new model or completely new line.

[iconoclast]

The brakes are Brembo set up and the air suspension is the company that Audi and BMW use but not sure who MB sources. I am not sure why the failure rate is higher and I don't think it is cost but application and the way it is used. As far as cost goes if they are paying less it is because they are buying far more than any other Marque. Nearly every "real" LR/RR comes with air suspension stock and most of the others have it as an option while Audi, BMW and MB only offer it on a couple of cars.

All interior clips are one-time use clips to me. I never reuse an interior clip because I hate rattles and squeaks.

I've owned many various LR/RR products over the years and currently have a new RRSC. Ditching my X5M and getting into an X7. I don't not share the same opinion as you based on our experience and the many people we know who have LR/RR vehicles. Are they finicky and troublesome at times? Yes, but no more so than BMW or Audi.

I am a fan of many vehicles for different reasons. The RRSC is probably one of the best one the road for comfort and luxury and until now BMW did not have an offering that competed against it and the GL/GLS in Plain Jane form is a joke. You have to spent over $92k before you can even get real leather or suspension options that do not make it feel like a listing sail boat on conservative turn in a parking lot.

[unotaz]

I'm a fan of many vehicles for different reasons as well!

So answer me this, why do you think the Brembo brakes on a Cayenne Turbo performs significantly better (and lasts heck of a lot longer) than the Brembo brakes on your RRSC? Do you think RR uses the same kind of Brembo brakes as Porsche does? Go look at your RRSC brakes and then go look at the Porsche Cayenne Turbo PSCB.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/chri...ach-14589.html

Does that look similar to your Brembo brakes on the RRSC? Not even close.

So how come Porsche uses superior Brembo brakes? Could it be because Porsche equipped their cars with a higher spec brakes and paid their supplier more $$ for it?

As for the air suspension fail rate (and this goes for the brakes as well), do you think RR tests their cars as much as BMW/Mercedes/Porsche as they are going through the prototype stages? Do you think RR spends nearly as much $$ as these German marques on R&D and testing? Just because RR uses the same supplier (eg. Brembo), it doesn't mean they do their research or their testings as much as their competitors.

So going back to my original point, while RR makes a car that rides and perform well (and often compete at a price point that seems like a bargain by offering more kit), they need either the backing of a major company who is willing to spend the $$$ on R&D and testings, or simply raise their prices and spend the additional $$ on better components to increase their reliability level. It's no coincidence that Porsche ranks #2 (Lexus is #1) in the JD Power new vehicle initial quality survey and Range Rover ranks dead last in 2019.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/rat.../Premium/10081

Originally Posted by iconoclast

The brakes are Brembo set up and the air suspension is the company that Audi and BMW use but not sure who MB sources. I am not sure why the failure rate is higher and I don't think it is cost but application and the way it is used. As far as cost goes if they are paying less it is because they are buying far more than any other Marque. Nearly every "real" LR/RR comes with air suspension stock and most of the others have it as an option while Audi, BMW and MB only offer it on a couple of cars.

All interior clips are one-time use clips to me. I never reuse an interior clip because I hate rattles and squeaks.

I've owned many various LR/RR products over the years and currently have a new RRSC. Ditching my X5M and getting into an X7. I don't not share the same opinion as you based on our experience and the many people we know who have LR/RR vehicles. Are they finicky and troublesome at times? Yes, but no more so than BMW or Audi.

I am a fan of many vehicles for different reasons. The RRSC is probably one of the best one the road for comfort and luxury and until now BMW did not have an offering that competed against it and the GL/GLS in Plain Jane form is a joke. You have to spent over $92k before you can even get real leather or suspension options that do not make it feel like a listing sail boat on conservative turn in a parking lot.

[iconoclast]

the brake set up on the cayenne are the same as the q7 and i got usually 20k miles out of them.

the three pot system on the l405 looks like a similar set up as the f85:



the pad composition is completely different because on the f85 they squeal like pigs but on the rrsc they never once made noise (on any rrsc or rrs-sc i have owned).

[unotaz]

Are you seriously comparing a base 70k Cayenne brakes to your 120k RRSC?

Let's look at something comparable in pricing from Porsche (this is the standard brake on the Porsche Cayenne Turbo). Porsche Surface Coated Brakes with tungsten carbide coating. 16.4in of pure beauty with non-existent brake dust. Does this look the same as your RRSC brakes?

Even a guy living on the street can tell you which is more expensive just by looking at it.

Still believe your RRSC uses top notch material? Why don't you go touch the leather on your RRSC dash and compare it to the leather on your seat? Feel the difference? Yes, it's because RR uses different grades of leather between the dash/doors and the seats/steering wheel. Your seat/steering wheel uses real napa leather, your dash and other trims are not.

Now go look at a Porsche Cayenne Turbo interior, there is no difference in grades of leather used between the dash, seats, or steering wheel. Porsche uses the same grade of napa leather on all trim.

RR uses the higher grade leather on all surfaces in the RRSC Autobiography edition which is a MORE EXPENSIVE car. Wow, what a shocker!

[ppagiga]

Originally Posted by unotaz

Are you seriously comparing a base 70k Cayenne brakes to your 120k RRSC?

Let's look at something comparable in pricing from Porsche (standard brakes on the Porsche Cayenne Turbo). Does this look the same as your RRSC brakes?

i gotta say, porsche is uniquely awesome in how they over-engineer stuff.

[iconoclast]

Originally Posted by unotaz

Are you seriously comparing a base 70k Cayenne brakes to your 120k RRSC?

I don't know what is offered currently but Cayenne Turbo and the 4L Q7 had the same brake set up. I had four corner carbon rotors set up on other vehicles and it was a separate option that outperformed almost every other steel Brembo set up. I am not comparing brake upgrade options just what is on the vehicle standard.

[unotaz]

2019 Cayenne Turbo comes with PSCB as standard, so this is not an upgrade. I'm assuming your RRSC is current, so we are comparing cars in today's marketplace as a reference point.

Originally Posted by iconoclast

I don't know what is offered currently but Cayenne Turbo and the 4L Q7 had the same brake set up. I had four corner carbon rotors set up on other vehicles and it was a separate option that outperformed almost every other steel Brembo set up. I am not comparing brake upgrade options just what is on the vehicle standard.

[unotaz]

Porsche brakes ain't no joke.

As an ex-mechanical engineer who has worked in the auto industry for several years early in my career (Delphi and Toyota), I look at cars very differently than the average Joe.

Originally Posted by ppagiga

i gotta say, porsche is uniquely awesome in how they over-engineer stuff.

[iconoclast]

Originally Posted by unotaz

2019 Cayenne Turbo comes with PSCB as standard, so this is not an upgrade. I'm assuming your RRSC is current, so we are comparing cars in today's marketplace as a reference point.

Correct. It is. I was not aware that '19 offered them as standard and I have not owned a new one yet so I cannot give my opinion or share any insight on it. I can only speak about the vehicles I have owned or have long term experience with. That being said the RRS SVR offers the ceramics as an option and the SVAutobiography Dynamic are standard (may be optional, I don't recall).

[Rublezz]

I've installed to my Toyota Land Cruiser V8 brakes from Audi RS6, 8 piston, 4 pads per caliper. That's the brakes.

[sliu070]

Originally Posted by NYG1121

I had been planning to dive into the SUV world for the first time after driving sports coupes and sports sedans for a long time. Maybe its a sign of getting older.. If I was going to jump into a SUV, I wanted it to be an actual SUV. I didn't really want another sedan type experience in a SUV form so wanted to "go big or go home". Disclaimer: no children or family quite yet so this is all for ME (how many more like me out there??)

When I first saw the X7 in pictures, I literally couldn't believe BMW's design direction. I was appalled, ridiculed the brand and decided to look elsewhere after having several BMWs previously. I always loved the RR look but after digging deeper into it, realized that reliability issues still plague the brand and hard to get a properly equipped full size RR for <100k. Plus it is towards the end of it's life cycle and I was planning on purchasing. I didn't want to be stuck longterm with something that will provide nothing but headaches.

It all changed when I saw the X7 in person. WOW it has presence. The same presence you see from the Rover. It is intimidating, large and in charge. The X5 does NOT provide that and neither do all the other SUVs from other brands. In fact, this makes the X5 look very bland in my opinion. I was hooked. Did a lot of research on packages and build options. Went with a Carbon Black X7 40i, M sport with cold weather (live in NE), premium, parking assist, glass controls. Will post pics soon!

After reading the thread I realized RR here = Range Rover not Rolls Royce.

[mitch57]

Originally Posted by sliu070

After reading the thread I realized RR here = Range Rover not Rolls Royce.

Yep! Seems to be a common assumption that "EVERYONE" knows what they're referring to in regards to said acronym.

I was always taught that the first time you use an acronym you always spell it out first. For example: "Range Rovers (RR) have quality and reliability problems."

Otherwise, people like you and me might think he meant Rolls Royce and not Range Rover. ... Just saying...

[NYG1121]

Umm no one is comparing a Rolls Royce to a X7. Ever.

[mitch57]

TEHO...

[iconoclast]

Originally Posted by sliu070

After reading the thread I realized RR here = Range Rover not Rolls Royce.

Well it is only $325k starting MSRP so clearly one would assume we're comparing a Cullinan to X7 and for some reason discussing Porsche Turbo brakes.

[unotaz]

Because while the Cullinan costs 325K MSRP, the Cayenne Turbo goes head to head with the Range Rover V8 Supercharged in terms of pricing.

Originally Posted by iconoclast

Well it is only $325k starting MSRP so clearly one would assume we're comparing a Cullinan to X7 and for some reason discussing Porsche Turbo brakes.