How do I learn how to drive my M4 properly on a track?

[m4pewpew]

Autocross - The local clubs like Spokes and SASCA are pretty good at designing safe and technically challenging courses. Autocross is the safest in my opinion. You race against the clock, you're almost always in second gear, not a lot of wear on the brakes and the tires. The biggest drawback is you have to stay out there all day for only 6 to 8 laps on average. Under the Texas sun, this is unbearable. I learned most of my driving skills from autocrossing, I think it's the best investment ever. Once you're there, you never forget how to do it, it's like riding a bicycle.

HPDE - I've only done this once, mostly because my mother wanted to try after riding along in a Ferrari F430, but she was scared and didn't want to do it alone. We attended an HPDE event from Longhorn Racing Academy, it was at Harris Hill, and we got 32 laps that day. I think this type of event is also pretty safe. They divide people into groups based on racing experience, everyone is paired with an instructor, strict overtaking rules, and with LRA you can also rent one of their cars if you don't want to bring yours. We rented that day, two lightly modified Miatas. My mom had zero racing experience but she had a great time. She built up her confidence and a few weeks later I put her in a Driving Experience event in a Mercedes SLS AMG, she did pretty well.

Many track day events are pretty easy. All the braking zones, apexes and corner exits are marked. If you can connect the dots, you have a good line.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by m4pewpew

Autocross - The local clubs like Spokes and SASCA are pretty good at designing safe and technically challenging courses. Autocross is the safest in my opinion. You race against the clock, you're almost always in second gear, not a lot of wear on the brakes and the tires. The biggest drawback is you have to stay out there all day for only 6 to 8 laps on average. Under the Texas sun, this is unbearable. I learned most of my driving skills from autocrossing, I think it's the best investment ever. Once you're there, you never forget how to do it, it's like riding a bicycle.

HPDE - I've only done this once, mostly because my mother wanted to try after riding along in a Ferrari F430, but she was scared and didn't want to do it alone. We attended an HPDE event from Longhorn Racing Academy, it was at Harris Hill, and we got 32 laps that day. I think this type of event is also pretty safe. They divide people into groups based on racing experience, everyone is paired with an instructor, strict overtaking rules, and with LRA you can also rent one of their cars if you don't want to bring yours. We rented that day, two lightly modified Miatas. My mom had zero racing experience but she had a great time. She built up her confidence and a few weeks later I put her in a Driving Experience event in a Mercedes SLS AMG, she did pretty well.

Your mom is awesome. good for her!

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by karussell

haha, would love to hear this one. don't tell me you are a lewis hamilton fan.

lol

I was a Nico Rosberg fan from day 1. Yes, I was a Lewis fan in his rookie season but his fuckup in the pits in China to lose the championship in his rookie season made him fall out of favor with me. I love Nico because he is one of the few drivers in F1 that doesn't have an ego, and isn't a hyper-mega-asshole like the ice man is. He is humble, and he deserves the crown finally.

My most hated F1 drivers of all time:

1) Schumi
2) Ice man
3) Prost

My most beloved F1 drivers of all time:

1) Ayrton
2) Ayrton
3) Ayrton
4) Ayrton
5) Ayrton
6) Ayrton
7) Ayrton
8) Ayrton
9) Gilles
10) Jacques
11) Nico

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by m4pewpew

Many track day events are pretty easy. All the braking zones, apexes and corner exits are marked. If you can connect the dots, you have a good line.

I am familiar with that as I participated in the Extreme Experience at Harris Hills. I have to say, HH is a very shitty track, I would prefer something smoother if I go about this.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by karussell

to be honest if you seriously want to learn to truly drive a car with confidence then you must start with one that has no power. you have to learn to drive it at 10/10ths precisely and consistently because it will punish you with horrific embarrassing acceleration ( complete lack thereof) if you botch up your line or inputs. on the corollary there is not much more satisfaction than zipping by someone in a fancy big hp car with your hamster powered antique. make a slow car fast. its the only way to truly learn.
other benefits using this method is the car you learn in will likely be for lack of a better word, disposable. just make it as safe as possible and reliable. (cage it and new brakes including calipers/master cylinder). you will push so much more than worrying about your $70K baby. it is a rare and special freedom when you can push a car to its absolute limits and slightly beyond.

for autocross or hpde pick an instructor with the most underpowered car. E30's 2002's. miata drivers. they don't have time to bullshit with technique. their shit works or they won't be out there instructing others.

I agree with lups. another alternative is to learn to drive in finland. thats pretty much how everyone learns. underpowered car with usually no traction but they still gotta get where they need to go. so its a nation of rally drivers. god bless them and kimi raikkonen.

It really is! The roads are so full of twists and bends, fast and slow corners, and the knowledge that when you fuck up, there will be no one to get you out of them really helps.

Most of the cars are front wheel drives, and the weather sucks. One has to either have a great insurance policy or a buss pass.

I've lived here for 6 or so months, and I have been spoiled with power. I'm already forgetting how to hit a corner and how to leave it, good roads and good brakes tend to do that. It's deceiving, since in the old world it's the entry speed first or a tree, and exit speed or a moose.

As for racing I can't say how this all goes with, but I consider myself now a lot worse driver than I used to be, and I feel sorry for every one who has to see me now handling this much power.

[karussell]

off topic but the man you worship the most is known for being the biggest asshole of them all on the track and he is my favorite as well. its spelled Ayrton btw. racing is chess and war at high speed. i think kimi embodies pretty much what an F1 driver is. his personal behavior well thats fodder for another book, but the confidence he has is absolutely necessary to pilot an F1 car. Nico is a great driver but not the best by a long shot. fastest and most cunning driver/team deserves the crown.

Originally Posted by sspyrops

I was a Nico Rosberg fan from day 1. Yes, I was a Lewis fan in his rookie season but his fuckup in the pits in China to lose the championship in his rookie season made him fall out of favor with me. I love Nico because he is one of the few drivers in F1 that doesn't have an ego, and isn't a hyper-mega-asshole like the ice man is. He is humble, and he deserves the crown finally.

My most hated F1 drivers of all time:

1) Schumi
2) Ice man
3) Prost

My most beloved F1 drivers of all time:

1) Aryton
2) Aryton
3) Aryton
4) Aryton
5) Aryton
6) Aryton
7) Aryton
8) Aryton
9) Gilles
10) Jacques
11) Nico

[m4pewpew]

Originally Posted by karussell

Your mom is awesome. good for her!

haha, thanks.

Originally Posted by sspyrops

I am familiar with that as I participated in the Extreme Experience at Harris Hills. I have to say, HH is a very shitty track, I would prefer something smoother if I go about this.

I understand :-) I was at the Extreme Experience event too, maybe I saw you :-) It was my first time in a Ferrari 458.

[SteveSpy]

Originally Posted by karussell

off topic but the man you worship the most is known for being the biggest asshole of them all on the track and he is my favorite as well. its spelled Ayrton btw. racing is chess and war at high speed. i think kimi embodies pretty much what an F1 driver is. his personal behavior well thats fodder for another book, but the confidence he has is absolutely necessary to pilot an F1 car. Nico is a great driver but not the best by a long shot. fastest and most cunning driver/team deserves the crown.

Yea I screwed up on the spelling!!

[Black Gold]

Good advice on the autocross

My advice is hpde classes at pds through Texas world speedway. Good instructors and it's not too crowded

Good luck, and if you do end up tracking in the Houston area I'll see you on the track!

[imserious]

Originally Posted by karussell

to be honest if you seriously want to learn to truly drive a car with confidence then you must start with one that has no power. you have to learn to drive it at 10/10ths precisely and consistently because it will punish you with horrific embarrassing acceleration ( complete lack thereof) if you botch up your line or inputs. on the corollary there is not much more satisfaction than zipping by someone in a fancy big hp car with your hamster powered antique. make a slow car fast. its the only way to truly learn.
other benefits using this method is the car you learn in will likely be for lack of a better word, disposable. just make it as safe as possible and reliable. (cage it and new brakes including calipers/master cylinder). you will push so much more than worrying about your $70K baby. it is a rare and special freedom when you can push a car to its absolute limits and slightly beyond.

Great advice. I would LOVE to do this, but there is expense and work involved in buying a track only car as well.

The modern M3's limits are incredibly high. You can only drive at 10/10ths when you're really pushing the car and then when you get there you really don't want to screw up at speed.

I'm recalling how well the M3 handles high speed sweepers. It has scary good grip.

[modkrazy]

Leave DSC on.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by imserious

Great advice. I would LOVE to do this, but there is expense and work involved in buying a track only car as well.

The modern M3's limits are incredibly high. You can only drive at 10/10ths when you're really pushing the car and then when you get there you really don't want to screw up at speed.

I'm recalling how well the M3 handles high speed sweepers. It has scary good grip.

saying its expensive to have a dedicated track car but risking a brand new $70k toy makes about as much sense as (insert anything stupid here)

news flash this hobby isn't cheap. however there are far cheaper and safer ways to get good at it than driving a brand new car. for one you are way way safer in a fully caged dedicated car at a track.

so money argument is done. its priorities that is the real issue.

you bought an awesome car and you want to play with it on the track but not interested in getting track car or going cookoo with the hobby just yet. fair enough. its not for everyone. we all need people to drive around for practice anyways

so learning in a new M3/M4. my advice.

1. take the power out of the equation. use one higher gear in all parts of the track and 3/4 throttle max. you will be cringing when you mess up a corner entry and exit sucks bad. thats what you want.

2. if a car is in your mirrors and it wasn't before the driver is faster than you. don't matter if they are in an mg midget. let them by when its safe and continue to practice what you are focusing on. its not a race.

3. before going out make sure you are covered. regardless of what you do for insurance expect it not to be covered by insurance and drive accordingly.

4. don't waste your time modifying the car. it will only slow down the learning process. for god sakes don't run semi-slicks. only masks more mistakes. creates a greater excitement factor when things go wrong....not the kind of excitement you want.

5. instruction in-car. have someone that knows what they are doing ride with you. even when you are signed off to go "solo" you stop learning when you don't have instant feedback. i always seek feedback when i can get it. this sport is 10 times more frustrating as golf and XX times more expensive especially when you are not humble about it. also like golf you can practice or practice perfect. one of them is waste of time and money and even dangerous if you are reinforcing bad habits. lets think of this sport/hobby in reference to others. name another one where death is a probable outcome for a mistake on your part or another. i always think about it.

its fun hobby. its a thrill. and something to take great pride in. the people you drive with you literally will trust them with your lives and their lives are also in your hands.

[Powaup]

Speaking of autocross, BMW is having a BMW Ultimate driving Experience in August where you can autocross a 2 or 5 series

http://ude.bmwusa.com/index.cfm


PS: I received a code but it did not work =/

[GBPackerfan1963]

To add to that. Practice first with the DSC on. It's a safe way to learn some of your limits. The DSC flashes on and it's a reminder to either slow down or take a different approach to the apex. My first HPDE, the DSC was on all morning and half of the afternoon session.

It's a mental thing, you turn off the DSC and some think they're Mario Andretti on the track. I caught myself doing it a tad with DSC off. Just pushing it a little too much.

YMMV The first thing to do is have fun. I was exhausted after my first HPDE event.

[Brosef]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the BMW M school yet. if you're a CCA member, you get a 20% discount. when you factor in the free meals, hotel, brakes, tires, and instruction, it's 100% worth it. what better way to learn the basics on track than in someone else's car with excellent instructors who want you to have fun?

after tracking my E92 for a couple years, I figured out that track days work out to about a grand per day (between track fees, track insurance, brake pads and tires) for me. that's close to what you pay with the 2-day M school, especially after you subtract out the value of the custom painted helmet they give you to go home with. and you get a DVD of yourself driving.

that's my advice. no matter what you do, be safe, be humble, and have fun.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by karussell

saying its expensive to have a dedicated track car but risking a brand new $70k toy makes about as much sense as (insert anything stupid here)

news flash this hobby isn't cheap

I'm no track guy (although I did grow in MN in a RWD car so that makes me just short of Indy qualified), but yeah if I was going to be I'd get a beater or rent a car during a track day with BMW or other.

The last thing I'd do is bring my new M4 to the track until I was very recently highly experienced in the techniques ... then I'd try to slowly transfer them to my new car.

[dave885]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the BMW M school yet. if you're a CCA member, you get a 20% discount. when you factor in the free meals, hotel, brakes, tires, and instruction, it's 100% worth it. what better way to learn the basics on track than in someone else's car with excellent instructors who want you to have fun?

after tracking my E92 for a couple years, I figured out that track days work out to about a grand per day (between track fees, track insurance, brake pads and tires) for me. that's close to what you pay with the 2-day M school, especially after you subtract out the value of the custom painted helmet they give you to go home with. and you get a DVD of yourself driving.

that's my advice. no matter what you do, be safe, be humble, and have fun.

I'll second the 2 day M school. I gave it to myself as a birthday present a few years ago and then bought a car to track because I caught the bug. I found that as a novice the instruction method of breaking it down into learning and practicing different elements of driving was better than the HPDE experience of getting out on the track and practicing the entire track. The M school built up to the whole track experience. You will also get to drive the M3/M4 as one of the cars, so you'll get to experience "your" car on the track without worrying about your car.

Overall people are giving you a lot of good advice about how to approach it. In the end you'll need to do what you feel most comfortable with.

My friend who tracked his 2013 E92 M3, now has a dedicated E36 M3 track car and is having more fun with less stress as he's using more of the car's potential and the $ downside from a track incident is significantly lower.

Good Luck.

[m3ct]

Originally Posted by karussell

I think the best way to start really is an autocross held by your local bmw cca chapter. its low speed in parking lot full of cones and no other cars. start at your pace that you feel comfortable with and grab as much instruction as possible. you will gain a lot of confidence in the car and that will help when you take it on a big track. also if you don't spin the car on the autox then you didn't get your money's worth. learn the car at and beyond the limits in a controlled environment like this. enough practice and you will learn to catch the car. that pays off if you get overzealous on the big track and now you are stability control. just keep a level head and respect your own limits first. above all else remember there is risk involved no matter how careful you are so you have to be comfortable with knowing you might have a bad day. make sure your insurance will cover you or willing to take the risk completely. i have seen cars totalled going 30mph in an autox. all it takes is the right circumstances.

That's what I did. It was very helpful, I can't just imagine doing the autocross in an m3. I was in a 228i and it was nice to learn on, but the m3 is a different story. I probably would've eaten several cones!

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by karussell

saying its expensive to have a dedicated track car but risking a brand new $70k toy makes about as much sense as (insert anything stupid here)

news flash this hobby isn't cheap. however there are far cheaper and safer ways to get good at it than driving a brand new car. for one you are way way safer in a fully caged dedicated car at a track.

so money argument is done. its priorities that is the real issue.

I have to disagree with you here. For the novice wanting to enter into tracking/racing, you don't immediately set aside a 3rd vehicle with all it's attendant costs and headaches - even if it's a stripped e30.

You either rent an appropriate car, borrow one, or use a daily driver.

If you are like me intending to use his/her daily driver m3, then it comes down to the discpline and knowledge necessary to keep your speed down for quite some time.

I get that a caged dedicated track vehicle is safer. No question. But that's an unrealistic entry criteria to the field.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I have to disagree with you here. For the novice wanting to enter into tracking/racing, you don't immediately set aside a 3rd vehicle with all it's attendant costs and headaches - even if it's a stripped e30.

You either rent an appropriate car, borrow one, or use a daily driver.

If you are like me intending to use his/her daily driver m3, then it comes down to the discpline and knowledge necessary to keep your speed down for quite some time.

I get that a caged dedicated track vehicle is safer. No question. But that's an unrealistic entry criteria to the field.

I think its fine to take the M4 out for your first couple of events, but its not a good long term plan if the track bug really bites you (maybe it will, maybe it won't?). As your skills develop you'll start to push your expensive M4 closer to its limit which will get really expensive (either in consumables or "off track" events).

See how things go after the first couple times out and if you want to continue racing I'd recommend getting an E30 or E36 dedicated track car. You be able to drive these platforms closer to their limit without totally breaking the bank.

[m4pewpew]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

For the novice wanting to enter into tracking/racing, you don't immediately set aside a 3rd vehicle with all it's attendant costs and headaches - even if it's a stripped e30.

You either rent an appropriate car, borrow one, or use a daily driver.

Or you get a Miata :-) I got lots of respect for Miatas. Some things can only be done in a lightweight car :-)

[imserious]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I have to disagree with you here. For the novice wanting to enter into tracking/racing, you don't immediately set aside a 3rd vehicle with all it's attendant costs and headaches - even if it's a stripped e30.

You either rent an appropriate car, borrow one, or use a daily driver.

If you are like me intending to use his/her daily driver m3, then it comes down to the discpline and knowledge necessary to keep your speed down for quite some time.

I get that a caged dedicated track vehicle is safer. No question. But that's an unrealistic entry criteria to the field.

Same thoughts here. There is the ideal path, but for the regular Joe (no pun intended) you have to make some compromises. For me that means using my daily driver and building up speed gradually. I'm not going to be doing 10/10ths anytime soon.