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      09-30-2022, 01:06 PM   #1
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EV X7 coming "gas savings?"

So, given that fact some leaks confirmed that a fully EV X7 is coming for the next X7 generation in 2027, I did some 101 math!

I found that on average, for every 5000 miles you may save $750 in total cost difference (gas vs kWh) for an EV vs a vehicle with a gas combustion engine running @~22MPG at prices of ~3-4 $/gallon. Even if price doubles, yet no increase in electricity cost, with a 30-40MPG gas consumption with hybrid tech, the calcs would still show no more than $800 of gas savings.

I get the environmental concern ... but, I never see myself wanting an X7 that is fully electrified, and I can't see how the X7 would be that fun without a large V8 engine!. I like the idea of plug-in hybrid (in fact I love it) and I think it is the way to go which gives us the option to run the engine when we feel like we want to, or to drive in a full EV mode. But, a fully electric X7, to me that is a no no, especially that even financially it makes no sense.

The added cost for a fully electric vehicle of the same trim (like the 7 series sedan) kills the gas savings, and even after 10 years, the fully electric one may cost more). I get the maintenance aspect, as well as the environmental aspect, but let's be honest, those who buy 100K miles don't really look at maintenance thing as a big issue (I hardly need to take my X7 to the shop for any engine work, if any, it is usually other mechanical stuff already shared with EV!!!) As for the environment, we would go with X5 PHEV or other hybrid SUVs available if that it a critical factor!

The point is, am getting super concerned that one day BMW will wrap up all V8 engines being an option and switch to V6 or 4-cylindders gradually, hence full EVs being the only option later!!!!!
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      09-30-2022, 02:08 PM   #2
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I actually wouldn't mind an EV X7. I'm an absolute EV hater when it comes to sports cars/sedans, but in a big luxury family hauler like an X7, I'm all for EV since it provides smooth power delivery. I couldn't care less about fuel cost savings. I just like the idea of a smooth, vibration free powertrain in my ultra-luxurious ride.

When it comes to a sports car/sedan however, give me a fully gas powered roaring engine with all the vibrations and drama in the world. A manual transmission being the cherry on top.
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      09-30-2022, 02:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I actually wouldn't mind an EV X7. I'm an absolute EV hater when it comes to sports cars/sedans, but in a big luxury family hauler like an X7, I'm all for EV since it provides smooth power delivery. I couldn't care less about fuel cost savings. I just like the idea of a smooth, vibration free powertrain in my ultra-luxurious ride.

When it comes to a sports car/sedan however, give me a fully gas powered roaring engine with all the vibrations and drama in the world. A manual transmission being the cherry on top.
Don't you agree that with for an EV, on a chassis of this size, that all the road noise, interior minor squeaking/rattling, of course will get amplified a ton of time with the lack of the V8 engine sound!?

I have an EV, both a 530e PHEV now which is built really nicely, and a Tesla in the past, and I did test drive X5 PHEV, and I can tell you that with the lack of engine sound, every single tiny noise gets amplified and for some people like me that can get me crazy. The V8 engine sound which IMO is smooth enough, is music to my ears, and I doubt I'd enjoy an EV X7. When it gets to smoothness, what I car about is a comfortable-smooth ride, which am already getting with the X7 and the V8 engine. Again. I still think that a PHEV that also has a V8 is the ultimate choice, but not a full EV.
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      09-30-2022, 02:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW5and7 View Post
Don't you agree that with for an EV, on a chassis of this size, that all the road noise, interior minor squeaking/rattling, of course will get amplified a ton of time with the lack of the V8 engine sound!?

I have an EV, both a 530e PHEV now which is built really nicely, and a Tesla in the past, and I did test drive X5 PHEV, and I can tell you that with the lack of engine sound, every single tiny noise gets amplified and for some people like me that can get me crazy. The V8 engine sound which IMO is smooth enough, is music to my ears, and I doubt I'd enjoy an EV X7. When it gets to smoothness, what I car about is a comfortable-smooth ride, which am already getting with the X7 and the V8 engine. Again. I still think that a PHEV that also has a V8 is the ultimate choice, but not a full EV.
Well I have the b58 i6 in my x7 and it's nearly silent. This x7 is one of the quietest cars I've ever owned. While a V8 is music to my ears.. I personally see no need for that in a large 3 row SUV. If I want to have fun I'll hop into a sports sedan. When it comes to a large SUV, for me it's all about comfort and luxury. Just different priorities. I'd assume majority of shoppers in this segment go for luxury over sport.
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      09-30-2022, 03:02 PM   #5
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2027 is long way to go and what ever I strongly feel today might change based on the new tech that comes in tomorrow. Because 10 years ago, I never thought I would ever enjoy an automatic transmission drive and can ever move away from stick shifts..

With EV market trying to boom there will be lot of improvements to that segment and cost might come down eventually..
As of today, I think I can't ever enjoy a drive without the vibe of gas engine .. And totally agree to the fact that at present moving to EV is an environmental consideration, than a financial one.
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      09-30-2022, 03:43 PM   #6
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All the media coverage of the evacuation of Ft. Myers 2 days ago featured people gassing up their cars and filling up fuel cans. There was nobody standing at a Tesla charging station smoking cigarettes (you can do this at charging stations since Teslas ignite autonomously) while waiting to top off their batteries. Did all the Teslas in FL drown?
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      09-30-2022, 05:40 PM   #7
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let me option a 600hp equiv ev x7 and I'll stop glancing at model X's forever.
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      09-30-2022, 06:52 PM   #8
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Unless it has a 600 mile range and can be charged from empty to full in 20 minutes, it’s a useless vehicle for me. I wouldn’t consider the technology in any vehicle until that basic parameters can be met and that’s even a compromised ownership experience from what I have now. There are a lot of major hurtles to be figured out with fully electric vehicles and that’s pretending the vehicle are not being charged up from coal power plants. Better yet get ev in commercial aviation and then you might have a solid argument that it’s anyway equal to what a fossil fuel power source can produce.

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      09-30-2022, 08:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MystroX5 View Post
Unless it has a 600 mile range and can be charged from empty to full in 20 minutes, it’s a useless vehicle for me. I wouldn’t consider the technology in any vehicle until that basic parameters can be met and that’s even a compromised ownership experience from what I have now. There are a lot of major hurtles to be figured out with fully electric vehicles and that’s pretending the vehicle are not being charged up from coal power plants. Better yet get ev in commercial aviation and then you might have a solid argument that it’s anyway equal to what a fossil fuel power source can produce.
I fully agree with you on the long range and quick charge being a requirement of anything more than a compromised ownership experience. And the fact that the whole world has their head in sand about where the energy and materials for you EV come from.

That being said, the commercial aviation comment doesn't really apply. The issue with batteries for commercial planes is all about energy density and weight. The energy density of Jet A (kerosene) is like 50x that of a lithium battery. That weight is MUCH more of a compromise in an aircraft where you are fighting gravity in addition to drag verse than it is in an automobile. Its not about it being better, its different.
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      09-30-2022, 09:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MystroX5 View Post
Unless it has a 600 mile range and can be charged from empty to full in 20 minutes, it's a useless vehicle for me. I wouldn't consider the technology in any vehicle until that basic parameters can be met and that's even a compromised ownership experience from what I have now. There are a lot of major hurtles to be figured out with fully electric vehicles and that's pretending the vehicle are not being charged up from coal power plants. Better yet get ev in commercial aviation and then you might have a solid argument that it's anyway equal to what a fossil fuel power source can produce.
Or how about our garbage ass electrical grid that can't even handle a string of hot days without rolling blackouts?

I remember there was talk about Telsa designing a network of stations that could remove your depleted battery and replace it with a fresh one in under 5 minutes. But, like 80% of his ideas this too must've been vaporware.
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      09-30-2022, 09:33 PM   #11
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I remember there was talk about Telsa designing a network of stations that could remove your depleted battery and replace it with a fresh one in under 5 minutes. But, like 80% of his ideas this too must've been vaporware.
NIO in China is actually doing this today. They have some 500+ battery swapping stations for their EVs. Not sure why it's not a thing here in the US... but the idea is in implementation... with one of Tesla's competitors.
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      10-01-2022, 06:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Pin  View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MystroX5 View Post
Unless it has a 600 mile range and can be charged from empty to full in 20 minutes, it's a useless vehicle for me. I wouldn't consider the technology in any vehicle until that basic parameters can be met and that's even a compromised ownership experience from what I have now. There are a lot of major hurtles to be figured out with fully electric vehicles and that's pretending the vehicle are not being charged up from coal power plants. Better yet get ev in commercial aviation and then you might have a solid argument that it's anyway equal to what a fossil fuel power source can produce.
Or how about our garbage ass electrical grid that can't even handle a string of hot days without rolling blackouts?

I remember there was talk about Telsa designing a network of stations that could remove your depleted battery and replace it with a fresh one in under 5 minutes. But, like 80% of his ideas this too must've been vaporware.
They tried that in Israel. It was a total fail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
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      10-01-2022, 07:19 AM   #13
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The main issue I have with EV is how they are selling it and the fairy tail/propaganda for what the technology can actually accomplish. This desperate need to mold its imagery into a “chic” fashion statement of transportation is transparent and insulting to many of us.
There is way too many agendas behind it and if they let the actual technology speak for itself, the public would make up their own minds. Tax credits already are a admittance the technology cannot compete on its own merit. I think it has its place like in school/city bus, garbage trucks, etc.. That would be the first tangible step and a more realistic implementation to see if it has the capabilities for the long run.

FYI: I used the commercial aviation as an example for EV simply because that is an industry that has to have a truly effective and effective source of power that actually works. If that would happen for example, it would trickle down to the consumer showing its superiority, you wouldn’t need to have tax credits or slick imagery to sell the technology. Even something less extreme like a Coast Guard cutter powered by EV showing its reliability, range and durability in extreme conditions.

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      10-01-2022, 08:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Pină View Post
Or how about our garbage ass electrical grid that can't even handle a string of hot days without rolling blackouts?

I remember there was talk about Telsa designing a network of stations that could remove your depleted battery and replace it with a fresh one in under 5 minutes. But, like 80% of his ideas this too must've been vaporware.
I would think a major problem with this is the variance in battery condition as it ages. Swapping out old end-of-life batteries for brand new would be a giveaway. Does anyone want to drive into a battery station with a brand new EV and drive away with a battery that's 3 years old and that's been through a thousand charge cycles?
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      10-01-2022, 09:29 AM   #15
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Battery age and range is only part of the issue. To me, nothing matches the sound and feeling of a V8 engine! I could have gone with a V6 engine if I want a silent drive! EV is even worse from a driving experience…
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      10-01-2022, 10:51 AM   #16
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I am looking at it like this

x7 is a mainstream vehicle to fill everyday family duty across a wide variety of use cases. Not a tech demonstrator being adapted to do so. As such it is probably a good comp for what we will see in mainstream electrification adoption with maybe a small pull forward given the price point and bmws positioning as an overall tech forward brand.

We have 5 more full model years of ICE only.
Then we have 7 more years of the next gen vehicle as a PHEV with a full electric option

So 12 years before even potentially moving to ev only offerings in the segment (no hybrid variant)

There is bound to be a large surge in both technology capability (charging speed/range) and scale of infrastructure (charging locations, locations that fast charge)

So I think mainstream users have plenty of time to wait for the tech to catch up to their need states. By then the use case should make sense or whatever brand fills customer needs best will dominate even if that means another round of PHEV.
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      10-01-2022, 11:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I am looking at it like this

x7 is a mainstream vehicle to fill everyday family duty across a wide variety of use cases. Not a tech demonstrator being adapted to do so. As such it is probably a good comp for what we will see in mainstream electrification adoption with maybe a small pull forward given the price point and bmws positioning as an overall tech forward brand.

We have 5 more full model years of ICE only.
Then we have 7 more years of the next gen vehicle as a PHEV with a full electric option

So 12 years before even potentially moving to ev only offerings in the segment (no hybrid variant)

There is bound to be a large surge in both technology capability (charging speed/range) and scale of infrastructure (charging locations, locations that fast charge)

So I think mainstream users have plenty of time to wait for the tech to catch up to their need states. By then the use case should make sense or whatever brand fills customer needs best will dominate even if that means another round of PHEV.

I see what you mean, but that still does not solve the problem that many of us have with EV powered vehicles!

Even if range is good, and even if charge time and stations are good enough, I still do not like the driving experience of an EV compared to a real combustion engine with a powerful V8 type of inertia!. EV to me is more of a toy, and I’d never want the EV. This is the same reason why I still love the old caprice or chevy’s that even though they are too slow and drink gas like an elephant, they are super fun to drive around!. EV is just a downgrade to me on all ends. PHEV with powerful engine? Yes, but full EV, no!
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      10-01-2022, 03:23 PM   #18
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I see what you mean, but that still does not solve the problem that many of us have with EV powered vehicles!

Even if range is good, and even if charge time and stations are good enough, I still do not like the driving experience of an EV compared to a real combustion engine with a powerful V8 type of inertia!. EV to me is more of a toy, and I’d never want the EV. This is the same reason why I still love the old caprice or chevy’s that even though they are too slow and drink gas like an elephant, they are super fun to drive around!. EV is just a downgrade to me on all ends. PHEV with powerful engine? Yes, but full EV, no!
that is interesting. have you driven an EV? just curious if that is based on owning one before and hating it, or a short test drive in a friend's EV made you feel that way.
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      10-01-2022, 05:17 PM   #19
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that is interesting. have you driven an EV? just curious if that is based on owning one before and hating it, or a short test drive in a friend's EV made you feel that way.
I had two, and today I have one. I had a Tesla (never went to shop, all good) that I sold; and I now I have a 530e that we use only and strictly for in-town/local short trips, hence 100% on EV for 99% of the time it's driven. Never had any issue with both. I also had an IX that I kept (thought I didn't buy myself, but for private reasons I owned* it for a few months) so my opinion is purely based on how EVs drives vs how a V8 tubro-charged 500hp+ and a real transmission drives. It is the driving experience, and the feeling of setting behind the steering of a vehicle driven via a true mechanical system that interacts with you, responds nicely to your foot, and feeding back to your ears a nice exhaust but not overwhelming system (instead of an alian sound coming from speakers).

I would never consider not having an EV in my garage, but I would never ever want that to be my X7, which I use when I go to work, or when I feel like I want to take the family for a nice local restaurant, river or a just a nice trip around. The EV to me is strictly good to take goods to school, do groceries, go to gym or whatever when the goal of the trip is boring and has a Home-to somewhere then back home, or in boring routes, trips or busy road times.
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      10-01-2022, 07:50 PM   #20
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I also would add a note that the fact the new XM is an electrified SUV yet with a V8 engine, probably gives us hope that BMW may still be focused on hybrid type of engines than EV only vehicles in the near future.
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      10-01-2022, 08:21 PM   #21
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I actually wouldn't mind an EV X7. I'm an absolute EV hater when it comes to sports cars/sedans, but in a big luxury family hauler like an X7, I'm all for EV since it provides smooth power delivery. I couldn't care less about fuel cost savings. I just like the idea of a smooth, vibration free powertrain in my ultra-luxurious ride.

When it comes to a sports car/sedan however, give me a fully gas powered roaring engine with all the vibrations and drama in the world. A manual transmission being the cherry on top.
This 100%. Sports cars give me an ICE car with a proper engine and transmission, but luxury cars, EV's are perfect for. I recently drove the EQS SUV and it was so smooth and comfortable to drive with effortless power.
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      10-01-2022, 09:39 PM   #22
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With this review on the EV (Mercedes EQS SUV) above, coming from a tech R&D background, I can tell you they are still AT LEAST 15 years away from reaching where we the consumer need the tech to be!. the EQS SUV has 285 miles of range (AWD) and yet is is a few inches shorter in length than the GLS!. The 3rd row is more crowded and barely kids fit there. If they were to make a real size SUV (i.e.: GLS or X7) equivalent, I bit their range would drop to 200 miles.
We are years away from the 600 miles dream and 5-10min charging, and I am not even sure it will be ever possible given the density of battery packs from a chemistry prospective (there are just some certain thresholds that you can't simply exceed unless u come up with a new tech).

BMW is on the right track by promising that all their vehicles will share the same chassis and body between ICE and EV or PHEV vehicles. Mercedes took it the easy way and decided to change things to tune the numbers and range by making an EV shape design separate from the ICE line.

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