[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by rjabend

I can only say that I am shocked. You are beyond tolerant and I wish you the best from this point on!

To be honest when I got my car I thought I had one of the better ones even with the two issues that I had upon purchase compared to what I saw on the forums at that time. It has gotten better since then but then I see someone get a new car with wood trim on one door and carbon fiber everywhere else and I shake my head again.

Originally Posted by omnid00d

I wouldn't have been able to tolerate what you tolerated. My wife would have forced me to sell the car.

That said, I have to admit that I still keep eyeing a model X or R1S when I'm driving my X7. Even that 1 EV9 I saw on the road. As much as I enjoy my CPO M50i, the ICE part does irk me TBH but during my search, there's still too much of a give/take in the EV market. If it isn't 1 thing, it's another. I keep reading that Genesis is building an GV90 EV. Maybe an EV X7 is coming too.

My wife did mention how big of a POS it is and how the range they tout is BS but we both like driving it and the power is awesome. I usually lease cars but because the lease rates were so bad I ended up buying the car and have thought about selling it and buying a new one in hopes of getting a better one but Tesla dropped prices $40k on the Plaid this year so my cars value tanked and I if I were to sell I would have to pay $30k to pay off my loan since my car is underwater. I wish I would have leased now…

[rjabend]

The sad part is that Tesla probably doesn't realize that sloppy builds, poor quality control, and substandard inspection end up costing them more than if they built the vehicle properly, thereby avoiding repairs, replacement, and lost customers. That said, BMW could also gain from understanding that concept.

[Saejin]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

To be honest when I got my car I thought I had one of the better ones even with the two issues that I had upon purchase compared to what I saw on the forums at that time. It has gotten better since then but then I see someone get a new car with wood trim on one door and carbon fiber everywhere else and I shake my head again.



My wife did mention how big of a POS it is and how the range they tout is BS but we both like driving it and the power is awesome. I usually lease cars but because the lease rates were so bad I ended up buying the car and have thought about selling it and buying a new one in hopes of getting a better one but Tesla dropped prices $40k on the Plaid this year so my cars value tanked and I if I were to sell I would have to pay $30k to pay off my loan since my car is underwater. I wish I would have leased now…

Tesla dropped the price and now you’re $30K underwater on the Tesla!

That’s insane…I mean the fact Tesla drops prices like that so frequently. Did they compensate you or provide any thing to make up for it.

I mean, what a hit on resale values if your $120K Plaid can now be bought for $90K new or something like that.

That alone would make me stay away from the brand regardless of how fun it is to drive albeit I would think that’s more of straight line acceleration…but again, I don’t own a Tesla, probably never will, so only going off what I’ve read and friends experiences.

Read here or somewhere else, can’t remember…MY best selling car…whatever…can only get that because they’re discounting them so much I guess.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by Saejin

Tesla dropped the price and now you’re $30K underwater on the Tesla!

That’s insane…I mean the fact Tesla drops prices like that so frequently. Did they compensate you or provide any thing to make up for it.

I mean, what a hit on resale values if your $120K Plaid can now be bought for $90K new or something like that.

That alone would make me stay away from the brand regardless of how fun it is to drive albeit I would think that’s more of straight line acceleration…but again, I don’t own a Tesla, probably never will, so only going off what I’ve read and friends experiences.

Read here or somewhere else, can’t remember…MY best selling car…whatever…can only get that because they’re discounting them so much I guess.

Good Point!

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Saejin

..//..
Read here or somewhere else, can’t remember…MY best selling car…whatever…can only get that because they’re discounting them so much I guess.

I wrote that; but the argument is not true. Model Y is NOT discounted at all for their size and what they offer. They are as-expensive (or more expensive) than several other mid-size SUVs. You can argue that the best selling car is the best selling car only because it is discounted. Best selling is best selling regardless, but on average Model Y trims are more expensive that Toyota Highlander, Honda Pilot, and can be as expensive as X3, while the Model Y Performance is almost as expensive as an X5 40i. I do NOT own a Model Y, but the car is amazing, has 3rd row as an option, smooth, super reliable, awesome family car. It's the best for being the best. Kinda silly (for anyone, speaking in general) to blindly take away from a car that did well and not giving it credit. U can't be the best selling car globally for no reason. Having said that, I personally would never trade in our X5 for a Model Y. I still prefer our X5 (but u know, it's also much more expensive than a Y, comparing both new-new prices).

As for Model S price drop, in fact, they never dropped, but they peaked to 120K for the Plaid and +100K for Model S during COVID only and those who bought it in 2021 should have known better. It's now back to normal as it was prior to 2020 or lower (Model S was 70+74 in 2020 pre-covid) and it's almost similar for the base model. Name a single brand that maintained now it's pricing to pre-COVID prices? Almost none except a few, certainly now the ones we typically drive. Pricing strategy of Tesla is all based on small margins and balancing demand vs supply. Their margins are too low now and that's the right time to buy. I hope they never peak again, as this would mean there is a global issue again. When prices has peaked at that time, most other brands were NOT selling new cars and the wait was 1 year, and when they do sell a car, they sell it for 20K above MSRP. in 2021 I was shopping for the new Escalade, almost all dealers where asking 15K over MSRP. That's the same exact way as price increased but in a nastier way. Tesla does NOT play the dealers game, they sell direct, and they simply increased their prices to be profitable during supply issues, so that was not an isolated issue, and again in my view it is not a price reduction, it was a price increase that now is gone and back to normal.

I am not a fan-boy of Tesla, in fact, I am not a fan of any car, and likely there is almost nobody I know who switches cars and enjoys them by going from one to another as fast as I do. So I have zero emotions to any brand or car I own, and I have always been honest about my ownership experience even if it bothers others who are attached to their cars, and just blindly hate other brands. Before I got one, I used to do the same (even here) as I never appreciated the brand enough (which is why I can't fault anyone from doing that now), but I knew it was based on blindly making assumptions. I can tell you now from experience, just like many (real owners) said, the Model S is the best car I ever owned in my life. Even the best car for it's price too. I would still buy this car even if it was priced the same as COVID years. Luckily I bought it during normal pricing years just last year. I don't understand it when people just talk trash about Tesla from the outside counting on their friends or colleagues feedback. Thinking about the 5-series or i5, it is soooo silly to even think of comparing them as the i5 is more expensive, yet it's worse than the S in almost every single aspect based on current pricing (i5 has less space, more cramped, lower range, slower charging, less stability, software and UX is not even close, mobile app is not even close too, etc). Even for an ev to ev comparison, Model S still has the edge over other Sedans in the 75-90K range. U can't fault them for peaking prices when almost no brand was selling EVs during COVID as non of them could afford getting the raw materials needed for batteries then. Only people with bad experiences are vocal, just like here on this form with the X7 LCI first few months, omg the car almost seemed like real trash from all the on-going issues. In reality, it is still a great SUV. I'd only take feedback from those who tried the brand, yet tried it long enough, and I wouldn't take isolated/single experiences. If you do, no body should ever buy 2022+ X7 based on my experience (mine was a peace of trash build quality wise from all sides, creaking noises, moonroof noise, side door wind noise, trunk door misaligned, etc), but it's just me, others are still happy. It's the combined sum of a large pool of owners and what they think of the brand. In that case, Tesla owners, for the majority of them, would never ever look back and switch to another brand, but u'd still find a few people with bad experiences, but not a majority).

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by rjabend

The sad part is that Tesla probably doesn't realize that sloppy builds, poor quality control, and substandard inspection end up costing them more than if they built the vehicle properly, thereby avoiding repairs, replacement, and lost customers. That said, BMW could also gain from understanding that concept.

I agree. Their standards are a bit more sloppy than many other brands, and I don't think they are denying it as they position themselves as a Tech company focused on mass production. I also think majority of owners understand that side as far as the quality threshold being "acceptable" but not "exceptional". I'd expect by X7 doors to be 100% aligned "exceptional", but when I get a Tesla, I'd accept 95% "acceptable" bu. With that said, their standards are still acceptable at the very least especially nowadays compared to 4 years ago, but certainly not as strict and OCD-friendly as BMW or Mbenz. As long as I don't hear wind noise in any car, that's all I care about, lol

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by Saejin

Tesla dropped the price and now you’re $30K underwater on the Tesla!

That’s insane…I mean the fact Tesla drops prices like that so frequently. Did they compensate you or provide any thing to make up for it.

I mean, what a hit on resale values if your $120K Plaid can now be bought for $90K new or something like that.

That alone would make me stay away from the brand regardless of how fun it is to drive albeit I would think that’s more of straight line acceleration…but again, I don’t own a Tesla, probably never will, so only going off what I’ve read and friends experiences.

Read here or somewhere else, can’t remember…MY best selling car…whatever…can only get that because they’re discounting them so much I guess.

Uh I wish I paid $120k, I paid $130k and the sad thing is I bought it before it went to $135k so at least it wasn’t the worst case scenario. The reduction in price was $40k but I think I’m only $30k underwater from what my loan is.

As far as compensate me, LOL no why would they? Only automaker I saw do that was the Viper when they dropped the price around 2014 and they gave the original owners a $20k coupon for another Dodge. If they did that I would take advantage and get another Plaid.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

Uh I wish I paid $120k, I paid $130k and the sad thing is I bought it before it went to $135k so at least it wasn’t the worst case scenario. The reduction in price was $40k but I think I’m only $30k underwater from what my loan is.

As far as compensate me, LOL no why would they? Only automaker I saw do that was the Viper when they dropped the price around 2014 and they gave the original owners a $20k coupon for another Dodge. If they did that I would take advantage and get another Plaid.

I agree.. why would they ever compensate anyone. Price drops are good for EVERYONE, and are a good thing that shows they care about customers and have no interest to overcharge them. It works well for future owners, and for current owners too because now they can upgrade to a newer one for cheaper!. It's only bad for those leaving the brand, and for those people there is no reason for Tesla to care about them and give them money to invest in another brand. If it was going to cost you 40K to trade to a brand new Model S, it would still cost you the same now and in fact even less (your car worth less, but the new one equally dropped). In fact, in such conditions, the trade is even better because used cars did NOT drop 30K. A 1-year plaid used to sell for 80K before the drop when a new one was 130K (I negotiated last year on a 2022 S plaid, 8K miles, 80K before prices dropped but didn't buy it). Now a 1-year old low mileage Plaid sells for 70s , when a new one sells for 90K (less than average trade-in cost difference/Delta before prices dropped. This is how I look at it. People like to look at things as if it's bad, but in reality, this was a good move for everyone, really. Lower prices is ALWAYS good for the consumer.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

As for Model S price drop, in fact, they never dropped, but they peaked to 120K for the Plaid and +100K for Model S during COVID only and those who bought it in 2021 should have known better. It's now back to normal as it was prior to 2020 or lower (Model S was 70+74 in 2020 pre-covid) and it's almost similar for the base model. Name a single brand that maintained now it's pricing to pre-COVID prices? Almost none except a few, certainly now the ones we typically drive. Pricing strategy of Tesla is all based on small margins and balancing demand vs supply. Their margins are too low now and that's the right time to buy. I hope they never peak again, as this would mean there is a global issue again. When prices has peaked at that time, most other brands were NOT selling new cars and the wait was 1 year, and when they do sell a car, they sell it for 20K above MSRP. in 2021 I was shopping for the new Escalade, almost all dealers where asking 15K over MSRP. That's the same exact way as price increased but in a nastier way. Tesla does NOT play the dealers game, they sell direct, and they simply increased their prices to be profitable during supply issues, so that was not an isolated issue, and again in my view it is not a price reduction, it was a price increase that now is gone and back to normal.

Uh no, peak was not $120k, peak was $135k. The difference here is when the dealers mark up from MSRP at least I would know that and would just not buy it. When a manufacturer puts out a MSRP I would have no idea they would drop the price $40k because they never insinuated it was over an above MSRP. Had I known that I wouldn’t have bought it. So no it isn’t remotely the same. A manufacturer hardly ever drops MSRP like that. Viper did it once and compensated owners for it and Audi just followed Tesla and dropped the MSRP of the Etron GT.

Tesla just doesn’t care because they are selling a ton of cars so why do they care if they turn off current owners and turning on prospective new owners. From a business perspective I get it.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

Uh no, peak was not $120k, peak was $135k. The difference here is when the dealers mark up from MSRP at least I would know that and would just not buy it. When a manufacturer puts out a MSRP I would have no idea they would drop the price $40k because they never insinuated it was over an above MSRP. Had I known that I wouldn’t have bought it. So no it isn’t remotely the same. A manufacturer hardly ever drops MSRP like that. Viper did it once and compensated owners for it and Audi just followed Tesla and dropped the MSRP of the Etron GT.

Tesla just doesn’t care because they are selling a ton of cars so why do they care if they turn off current owners and turning on prospective new owners. From a business perspective I get it.

Well, I don't mean to be sneaky, but you should have known better. I disagree, u should have known that 135K is over-priced right when other brands were charging over MSRP too. If you looked at that time at the 10 years history for Model S prices, you would have known that 2021-2022 prices were 10s of thousands higher than the previous 10 years (at least the regular S could have been used as a baseline). Also, Tesla has always been clear, they will always push prices up and down based on market situation. For loyal consumers, it makes no difference prices goes up, your car goes up too. Prices go down, you car goes down too. Keep in mind: several Tesla owners made a ton of money at that time by selling their Tesla and waiting for the prices drop. My neighbor sold his S more than what he paid for it brand new. So it goes both ways too. But in all cases I would have never paid the 130K price in 2021-2022. Several people knew it was a supply demand mismatch pricing issue at that time at least based on the last 10 years historical prices (which are well documented).

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

Well, I don't mean to be sneaky, but you should have known better. I disagree, u should have known that 135K is over-prices right when other brands where charging over MSRP too. If you looked at that time at the 10 years history for Model S prices, you would have known that 2021-2022 prices were 10s of thousands higher than the previous 10 years (at least the regular S could have been used as a baseline). Also, Tesla has always been clear, they will always push prices up and down based on market situation. For loyal consumers, it makes no difference prices goes up, your car goes up too. Prices go down, you car goes down too. But in all cases I would have never paid the 130K price in 2021-2022. Several people knew it was a supply demand mismatch pricing issue at that time at least based on the last 10 years historical prices (which are well documented).

Sorry, many people that first bought has no idea that level of price drop. Plus it was an all new refresh with many upgrades and a 9 second car with three motors which hadn’t been done before. I’ve been on that forum for a while, sorry, no one expected that but I guess everyone that bought them were too dumb to know that. Now that I know I wouldn’t buy anything new from Tesla like that again like the Cynertruck, I would just wait a couple years.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

Sorry, many people that first bought has no idea that level of price drop. Plus it was an all new refresh with many upgrades and a 9 second car with three motors which hadn’t been done before. I’ve been on that forum for a while, sorry, no one expected that but I guess everyone that bought them were too dumb to know that. Now that I know I wouldn’t buy anything new from Tesla like that again like the Cynertruck.

Am sorry if the situation has impacted you though, to me, keep in mind that now u can get a new plaid for 90K... really your trade in difference would probably have been the same exact thing if Plaid were still selling for 135K. Your current Plaid probably won't worth more than 80K and you would have needed 55K more to get a new Plaid!. I am 100% certain you need less than 55K difference on trade to get yours upgraded to a plaid now : ). Sounds like (if u trade in now) the price reduction is benefiting you (if you trade in).!!

I agree though that the best thing to do is to wait a few more years. I can't think of any sedan that can be better than your Plaid now. Just enjoy it.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

Am sorry if the situation has impacted you though, to me, keep in mind that now u can get a new plaid for 90K... really your trade in difference would probably have been the same exact thing if Plaid were still selling for 135K. Your current Plaid probably won't worth more than 80K and you would have needed 55K more to get a new Plaid!. I am 100% certain you need less than 55K difference on trade to get yours upgraded to a plaid now : ). Sounds like (if u trade in now) the price reduction is benefiting you (if you trade in).!!

I agree though that the best thing to do is to wait a few more years. I can't think of any sedan that can be better than your Plaid now. Just enjoy it.

It is what it is, I owe $80k and could probably get $50k for my car because trade in value sucks although maybe I could get a little more selling to a private party. The only reason I was considering trading it for a new Plaid is because of all the issues my car has had but by doing that I would essentially be paying $120k. As a result I will just keep it and hope my issues are behind me.

I think for $90k right now it’s hard to beat the Plaid for what it is. It’s a great car but just don’t expect BMW fit and finish or service and just hope you get a good one. Also don’t expect the same features as a normal car like real BSM, 360 camera, etc. because even though they have provided updates for some feature, they aren’t nearly as good.

I will say the sound system is incredible compared to my B&W sound system in my X7.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

I will say the sound system is incredible compared to my B&W sound system in my X7.

I was about to ask you about what you think of the sound system. First based on feedback from others before i got mine, i thought they are exaggerating as that sounds system on the S is standard.... but I'd say I was very impressed too compared to B&W on my BMWs and even compared to the 6.5K Burmester 3D option on Benz-S-class (which is a notch better or equally good, not sure).

[vpatel867]

Originally Posted by rjabend

The sad part is that Tesla probably doesn't realize that sloppy builds, poor quality control, and substandard inspection end up costing them more than if they built the vehicle properly, thereby avoiding repairs, replacement, and lost customers. That said, BMW could also gain from understanding that concept.

Tesla does realize the sloppy build quality. It's the customer they don't care. Tesla knows this. They don't lose any customers. It's still the highest selling and has huge demand.

I have a friend who just got his Model S 100K, has 10+ things he has listed, and is waiting for a Tesla appointment to fix it. This includes the bumper not aligning, window seals, and several small issues. Can you imagine buying a 7 series and having these issues with BMW?

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by vpatel867

Can you imagine buying a 7 series and having these issues with BMW?

Unfortunately, YES

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

I was about to ask you about what you think of the sound system. First based on feedback from others before i got mine, i thought they are exaggerating as that sounds system on the S is standard.... but I'd say I was very impressed too compared to B&W on my BMWs and even compared to the 6.5K Burmester 3D option on Benz-S-class (which is a notch better or equally good, not sure).

I would say this is the second best sound system of any car I have had. The best I’ve had was the Mark Levinson system in a Lexus 600hL. The only fault I have with the Model S sound system is that it is a little too forward sounding to me (and some others feel the same) so I just put it back one notch to the rear.

I just don’t understand why other cars can’t have a good sound system like Tesla who doesn’t even put a name on it. Seems so easy but when I had the HK sound system in my M340, Mark Levinson in my GX460 or Beats in my SRT Durango, all of them were not impressive at all and comparably sounded like garbage. I even had a Model Y as a loaner once and it sounded awesome.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by vpatel867

Tesla does realize the sloppy build quality. It's the customer they don't care. Tesla knows this. They don't lose any customers. It's still the highest selling and has huge demand.

I have a friend who just got his Model S 100K, has 10+ things he has listed, and is waiting for a Tesla appointment to fix it. This includes the bumper not aligning, window seals, and several small issues. Can you imagine buying a 7 series and having these issues with BMW?

I think you sort of hit the nail on the head. They sell so many cars and not enough customers complain/reject cars enough that they are willing to sell the car and fix it later or hope the customer either doesn’t notice or doesn’t care. It sucks because until people demand better they won’t change and unfortunately its low build quality is just accepted by many customers. A fair amount of Model S cars are rejected on the forums from people who ordered but they are in the minority compared to a typical buyer who may not be an enthusiast.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by vpatel867

..//.. This includes the bumper not aligning, window seals, and several small issues. Can you imagine buying a 7 series and having these issues with BMW?

Originally Posted by rjabend

Unfortunately, YES

Lol same here, unfortunately yes I can imagine that. I lost quite good amount of money because of all the non-sense and poor quality issues in my 2022 X7 that I sold it in the end. Poor panel alignments, rear trunk door misaligned (and for the record can NOT be fixed), excessive wind noise, rattles.... and all this comes from someone who knows what the X7 as as I have had two at the same time, one is older and had superior quality. So, I gave up on the 2022.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

I would say this is the second best sound system of any car I have had. The best I’ve had was the Mark Levinson system in a Lexus 600hL. The only fault I have with the Model S sound system is that it is a little too forward sounding to me (and some others feel the same) so I just put it back one notch to the rear.

I just don’t understand why other cars can’t have a good sound system like Tesla who doesn’t even put a name on it. Seems so easy but when I had the HK sound system in my M340, Mark Levinson in my GX460 or Beats in my SRT Durango, all of them were not impressive at all and comparably sounded like garbage. I even had a Model Y as a loaner once and it sounded awesome.

I think it is because those tier-1 sound system companies are over charging all of us for their sound systems that is re-equipped in these cars. They add 3-4K or so for a sound system that really costs them nothing, only to add the brand name tag on it. Meanwhile they work hard to keep their individually custom sold systems much better than those equipped in cars so they keep the edge and a market for themselves.
BMW and other brands should start making their own, but I guess they don't have the capacity. If Tesla can do it, BMW should be able to do it, but German manufacturers like to keep relying on others for many of their parts for a reason I never understood.

The best sound system I ever had was the HK sound system in a 2010 Mbenz GL. 2nd best is the one in the Tesla S and X, 3rd is the 3D Burmester in the Benz S-class... The B&W and HK in our X5 and X7 are great, but not the greatest... there is some depth and not as immersive as they should for that price.