10-23-2021, 09:56 PM | #45 | |
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10-24-2021, 09:17 AM | #46 |
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“My point, if that's what you're referencing, wasn't a comparative analysis to a high-end home system, rather a capability assessment based on what "high res" is supposed to do in the first place .... which is to resolve very small details that normally get dropped like the echo off of the bass off the piano, when the singer's lips part, the scratch of the guitar pick on the string “
Absolutely no car environment would ever support these nuances even to the trained audiophiles ear. Agreed! “The point isn't to ding (or compare) the B&W system, rather to simply ask: if the B&W system's DAC, amp, & speakers aren't capable of that resolving & reproducing those tiny details, then high-res (and any effort spent on it) wouldn't be worth much.“ Didn’t take that way and totally agree. Was just referencing my initial intent when I started the thread. I had a lot of souls searching to do when I did the build sheet based on “forum/internet” opinions and feedback on the B&W. The broad consensus was that while it had good mid and highs clarity was lacking bottom end etc. I was happily relieved that when we got the car and set up basic EQ settings and use of good quality source material I was fully satisfied with the performance of the system That aside your information in your post is excellent. I would have never known that the source device SW limitations capped out at the CD quality level but as you said other than a high end system in an acoustically configured environment are you ever going to be able to hear the difference. In the car environment CD does sound really good especially when you consider that with the advent of streaming etc we have forgotten how good CD sounds compared to the compressed low but rate streaming material. Thank you for the research and sharing of the info in your post . |
10-24-2021, 06:23 PM | #47 | |
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Here's a funny side note: Over the years I've bought a few Ind Manufaktur cars - I don't know if this is why - but one day awhile back, out of the blue, BMWNA sent me a pair of B&W headphones! Now these aren't anything too fancy, but they were much higher quality what what I'd been using (PSB M4U2s) ... and they got me to start digging into my old stuff ... WAY back in the late 80s when I was just a kid getting my license I got REALLY into car stereo stuff, eventually custom building a pretty kickass system - well I also had a huge CD collection, that I digitized online, but then I fell out of all of it for a decade or two ... Then I got those B&W P5s, started digging through my old CDs and WOW! Emotion in songs I hadn't noticed in years! So that got me back into it, and eventually back into some better home equipment ... and, for me, DACs DEFINTELY make a difference ... something like a Chord Mojo paired with a good headphone will convince anyone who's ever liked music |
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10-25-2021, 08:12 AM | #48 | |
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Eton makes speakers that are Plug and play for this vehicle and that should most certainly be better than the Bavsound I just need to learn more about the efficiencies of each before I commit. |
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10-25-2021, 08:37 AM | #49 | ||
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This is not to say that coding the B&W stuff won't help the HiFi system sound better (I have not heard the HiFi system in the X7 though). But the sound improvement may not be the same like what I, and others, have heard when using the B&W coding with the HK system. But the coding is very simple with BimmerCode so if it does not work out, you can easily code it back to stock.
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10-25-2021, 10:27 AM | #50 | |
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10-25-2021, 11:06 AM | #51 | ||
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10-25-2021, 03:49 PM | #52 |
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Got it. Also did some digging and found 3d option in the expert mode setting. Makes it sound a little different. But it's better than before
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10-25-2021, 06:42 PM | #53 |
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Tell me more about this...Appears to be an app I download? Then what? I buy and OBD reader to plug into the port and that syncs with this app? Then code away?
Sorry for the dumb question new to BMW. #Audi4Life! 🤣 |
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10-27-2021, 02:19 AM | #54 |
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Let's me clear about bandwidth requirements.
16bit audio sampled at 44100 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*16*44100/ (8bit per byte) = 176,400 bytes a second. 24bit audio sampled at 192,000 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*24*192000/ (8bit per byte) = 1,152,000 bytes a second. 5ghz wifi can handle 25,000,000 bytes a second or more. So the bandwidth should be there to handle it. 24bit/192Khz dacs are easily included on $60 PC sound cards. https://www.newegg.com/creative-soun...82E16829102178 There is no reason the BMW shouldn't support hi-res audio, but it probably doesn't anyway. |
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10-27-2021, 09:39 AM | #55 | ||
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10-27-2021, 09:07 PM | #56 | |
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If you connect to the car using Bluetooth Audio (not CarPlay or Android Auto), the Bluetooth protocol as far as I know compresses the audio using an SBC codec from back in 2003. As far as I know, its relatively lossy compression protocol. Many newer (last 5 years) bluetooth headphones will use more efficient compression schemes such as LDAC or AAC or aptX, which because they are more efficient maintain fidelity even in compressed format. I think there are versions of these codecs that are considered lossless. Not sure if BMW Bluetooth supports these codecs. I am unsure how the audio is transferred to the BMW if you use CarPlay or Android Auto. Those two protocols do use Wi-Fi, but given that both interfaces need to work across many different types of hardware, I would not be surprised if the phone using a fixed codec to compress audio before transmitting it to your head end unit, regardless of how good the source audio was. Purely a guess, but I would be surprised if it was transmitting uncompressed WAV audio. Even if you have a 192 kHz, 24 bit file on your phone, if the phone then compresses that to a low bandwidth using a lossy codec, you will lose fidelity. |
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10-28-2021, 05:17 PM | #57 | |
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But at the end of the day it's about making sure you've got the right feature set to support high-quality audio and it is a frequent oversight in consumer electronics in general, not just auto. |
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10-29-2021, 12:36 AM | #58 | |
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(1.) How many consumers are interested in high-res? Not a ton (2.) Of those who are, how many actually know what it means AND have experience with what it means? I can tell you that number is exceedingly small. Even audiophile people spending $4,000 for a single pair of headphones don't really know what it is / how it works (those who do use pretty complicated software / apps) ... and I've never met a single one who can reliably tell the difference between a 16/44.1 and any higher stream. Not one. And that's in perfect conditions, not the very imperfect listening environment that's an auto interior ... (3.) What kind of system would BMW have to build to take advantage of high-res? A pretty expensive one .... Beyond all that, however, both Android & Apple are capping "high res" at 48kHz in the car (and effectively with their software unless you specifically know how to get around that) so the bandwidth is kinda moot anyway. Therefore, in order to make it work, BMW would have to add a Wi-Fi streamer into its electronics and, unless they're gonna use a Raspberry Pi, those are pretty expensive, and most consumers aren't gonna be running Roon or some other expensive streamer app. |
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11-01-2021, 11:40 AM | #59 | |
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I'll accept that it may only be supported by direct USB playback because other software doesn't support it, that would be apple/google/spotify responsibility to unblock. But there is no excuse not to support it in with the DACs. Hell at work I run my headphones through my display because I flip between like 3 inputs for different PCs, all with HDMI in, and it can do 24b 96khz. |
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11-01-2021, 01:17 PM | #60 | |
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There's a few reasons to use hi-res like low noise floor, micro-details, etc but that stuff is incredibly hard to hear, most people wouldn't notice even if their equipment can reproduce it, and that equipment - to do it well - is usually a few grand. at least. E.g., Focal Utopia headphones alone are $4,400, then you need good hi-fi electronics like amp, dac, & source. If you're extremely knowledgeable and experienced you can probably do that for $1,000 but most people who want those micro-details are going to more, say, $2,500 for a Schiit Yggy DAC, and at least another, say, $1,000 for a decent tube amp, but probably more like another $2,500. And then you need the interconnects, maybe clean power, etc, so plan on another $500-$1,000 ... thus, a "standard" high-res hi-fi headphone system will be in the $5k-$10k range. Sure, it's absolutely possible to build something decent hi-res hi-fi for <$1000, say, Senn hd-600s ... but not without losing something. And that's headphones - about the cleanest speakers-to-ear system you can get (and with only 2 drivers); not the interior of an SUV! Hell, even a good pair of campfire ear buds are $1500 ... Net-net: you can feed hi-res to a $15 dac chip, and you can feed hi-flav caviar to 15 month old baby ... but should you? Is there any value in doing it? Almost certainly not. That was more the point. |
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11-02-2021, 09:48 PM | #61 | |
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11-19-2021, 03:48 PM | #62 | |
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jmciver Thanks for the info been following...What makes you think the Bavsound is better than the HK speakers? Aside from your ear. Was it a noticeable difference on just the factory amp? I am going to upgrade the hifi speakers, the amp is still a question mark as to what I should do there. Not sure if our cars have an ASD or not (X7 40i) but that I believe impacts any aftermarket amp choices. If the Bavsound quality is good I'd consider it. Eton is the best option but they don't make a center channel option for our cars. They have speakers for every other location though. Bavsound on the other hand is drop in plug and play for our cars. |
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11-19-2021, 08:27 PM | #63 | |
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All that said, I believe the amp is a key player to improved sound, just like the speakers. The Bavsound speakers (and BimmerTech ones as well I will speculate), sound good because the HK amp is very good. The HK amp is much better than the HiFi amp (power, DSP, etc) - and there is no PnP amp upgrade for the G-series cars with HK at this time, only for the HiFi amp. So the sound improvement using Bavsound speakers with the HiFi amp may not be as good - but that can be a bit subjective. For this reason, there are some that recommend that to get the best sound upgrade in a Hifi equipped car, you should do both the speakers and the amp. Lastly, the 40i does not have ASD (which is a good thing IMO if you value music sound quality in your car). The M50i has it I believe though….
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11-20-2021, 08:06 AM | #64 | |
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You make a good point on the amplification differences between hifi and HK and I tend to agree the amp is probably the better place to start. Bavsound is redesigning their amp so nothing available at the moment. Maybe just do the speakers get it out of the way and then grab the amp once it's available. Good to know on the ASD, that will certainly make things easier to upgrade and not have to bi-pass any factory settings. |
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