Staggered vs. Square and 19" vs 18"

[ptyf80]

So for the past weeks i have been searching a reading a lot about this topic, but im more confused that when I started.

I truly believe that the F80 chasis is a great one, but it have the characteristic of been able to put power to the ground properly . Additionally im have the Dinan S2 tune, with the M performance Exhaust, so more Torque and HP´s what translates into having more problems on putting power to the ground.

Currently for the track I have a 19" x 8.5 on the front with 235 35 29 hossier R7 and 19" x 10 with 295 30 19, i also tried a 235 35 19 and 275 35 19 R888R´s for a few track days.

I like to here you opinions and advice regarding what do you think i should do.

First.... Should I go square or staggered? i believe the staggered give me more rear contact patch, something I think is missing a slowing me down if i try too hard on exiting a corner.

2nd .....if i go square I will go with hoosiers, but i believe i should try a new 18" wheels, with 275 35 18 on the four corners. my concern is that i need a wider tire en the rear, but im doing the opposite.

3rd..... if i go with a staggered setup ill go with a 10" et25 and 11" et44 with 275 35 and 295 35 or 305 35, but hoossier only makes 295 30 in 18", so this option have gotten complicated. The only tire available for this setup that is a track DOT tire is the Toyo R888R, but they dont come close to the grip ill get on the hoossiers R7.

4th...... another option would be to stay with the staggered setup on the 19", but again hoosiers sizes sends me to using the 235 35 and 295 30 setup that i currently have (they are already wore out, so anyway ill need to buy a new set). But 19" and rotational mass weight worries me about keeping this setup.

What do you guys thinks is my best option? remember i want to be able to put the 530HP and 528Lb/f Tq my car have to the ground in order to be able to exit corners faster and take advantage of the torque that i have.

Thanks

JP

[MannyM5]

To start, you definitely need wider wheels. Your current fronts are narrower than oem and you are limiting yourself to those 235 hoosiers where you really should have something that can fit the 265/35/19's. 11in rears will help with putting the power down and will allow you to run 295/35/19 or even the 315/30/19 r7's. Both of those rear options will give you more traction at corner exit than what you currently have.

For your option 3(going down to 18's) have you considered 275/35/18 front and 315/30/18 rear hoosier's on the wheel specs you mentioned? That might be the winner for you after reviewing your post. Most people are tracking this wheel setup with nitto nt01's 275/35/18 305/35/18 but it sounds like you want more grip than the nitto's offer so maybe the 315 r7's will work for you since they don't offer a 305 option. It may be a little wide for the 11in rim but it will work and be better than what you currently have. Not sure if there is a good 11.5x18 out there as well??

It doesn't seem that you would be happy with a square setup given you are already unhappy with the inability to put power down on your current staggered setup.

Just my .02 good luck!



PS: If tire budget doesn't concern you and maximum grip is what you are after, there's always the Pirelli DH full slick option in a variety of sizes.
https://shop.frisbyracetire.com/cate...?categoryId=20

[ptyf80]

Originally Posted by MannyM5

To start, you definitely need wider wheels. Your current fronts are narrower than oem and you are limiting yourself to those 235 hoosiers where you really should have something that can fit the 265/35/19's. 11in rears will help with putting the power down and will allow you to run 295/35/19 or even the 315/30/19 r7's. Both of those rear options will give you more traction at corner exit than what you currently have.

For your option 3(going down to 18's) have you considered 275/35/18 front and 315/30/18 rear hoosier's on the wheel specs you mentioned? That might be the winner for you after reviewing your post. Most people are tracking this wheel setup with nitto nt01's 275/35/18 305/35/18 but it sounds like you want more grip than the nitto's offer so maybe the 315 r7's will work for you since they don't offer a 305 option. It may be a little wide for the 11in rim but it will work and be better than what you currently have. Not sure if there is a good 11.5x18 out there as well??

It doesn't seem that you would be happy with a square setup given you are already unhappy with the inability to put power down on your current staggered setup.

Just my .02 good luck!



PS: If tire budget doesn't concern you and maximum grip is what you are after, there's always the Pirelli DH full slick option in a variety of sizes.
https://shop.frisbyracetire.com/cate...?categoryId=20

Thanks for the feedback.

I could not wait..... and this morning after talking with my local shop, they convinced me to get the square setup with 275 35 on all corners, we are going to try with the Toyo´s RR, which according to them are comparables to the hoosier´s R7 on grip, but with a better price.

They also convince me that is was better to go with a Forged wheel rather than the Flow Formed wheels since they are stronger and lighter and im getting the Bimmerworld TE:AL TA16 Forged Race Wheel, they doesnt look as good as de APEX EC-7´s but they at 19lbs they are lighter.
Order was placed this morning, so we will see how it goes.

Im will also install the TC Kline camber plates and will corner balance the car once wheels and tires arrive in a few weeks (since im in Panamá, it takes a bit longer to get things down here).


PTYF80

[MannyM5]

Originally Posted by ptyf80

Thanks for the feedback.

I could not wait..... and this morning after talking with my local shop, they convinced me to get the square setup with 275 35 on all corners, we are going to try with the Toyo´s RR, which according to them are comparables to the hoosier´s R7 on grip, but with a better price.

They also convince me that is was better to go with a Forged wheel rather than the Flow Formed wheels since they are stronger and lighter and im getting the Bimmerworld TE:AL TA16 Forged Race Wheel, they doesnt look as good as de APEX EC-7´s but they at 19lbs they are lighter.
Order was placed this morning, so we will see how it goes.

Im will also install the TC Kline camber plates and will corner balance the car once wheels and tires arrive in a few weeks (since im in Panamá, it takes a bit longer to get things down here).


PTYF80

Ahh yeah I forgot toyo makes the RR in those 18in sizes. They also make a 305/35/18 that is relatively new to them. They are a good tire. About 1 sec per lap slower than Hoosier r7 but very consistent throughout heat cycles and wear well.
I raced PCA Spec Boxster for a few years and this was our spec tire. Good luck and I hope you are happy with the square setup. Ability to rotate the tires will be a nice bonus of going square. We ran 255's square in Spec Boxster.
And hey, if you aren't happy with square you can always pick up a pair of 18x11's down the road and get the 305 RR's out back.

[ptyf80]

Originally Posted by MannyM5

Ahh yeah I forgot toyo makes the RR in those 18in sizes. They also make a 305/35/18 that is relatively new to them. They are a good tire. About 1 sec per lap slower than Hoosier r7 but very consistent throughout heat cycles and wear well.
I raced PCA Spec Boxster for a few years and this was our spec tire. Good luck and I hope you are happy with the square setup. Ability to rotate the tires will be a nice bonus of going square. We ran 255's square in Spec Boxster.
And hey, if you aren't happy with square you can always pick up a pair of 18x11's down the road and get the 305 RR's out back.

Exactly. Thats what I thought. The only problem is that the TE16 wheels only goes up to 10.5. Wondering if I could fit the 305 on those.

My storage room looks like a wheel/tires store. I have a set of dunlops 19 that i plan tu use with the 19 replicas for wet setup, that currently have a wear out set of R7. And have a set of r888r that i used last track day. I don't know what im going to do when new set arrive.

Do you think the attached r7 still can be used?

The front one got a bubble or whatever is called.


Ptyf80

[MannyM5]

I wouldn't drive on track with that bubble. High risk for a blowout. How many heat cycles on that set?

305's Toyos can work on 10.5. The RR's run a bit narrower compared to Hoosier R7's

[ptyf80]

Originally Posted by MannyM5

I wouldn't drive on track with that bubble. High risk for a blowout. How many heat cycles on that set?

305's Toyos can work on 10.5. The RR's run a bit narrower compared to Hoosier R7's

Im confused with the Heat Cycle term.... are you talking about the process of that you do when you prepare the new tire?

in the pictures the first three are for the rears tires, no bubbles on those, but was wondering if you think there is still enough thread to use them one more time.

The front one with the bubble cant be used.

Thanks.

[MannyM5]

Originally Posted by ptyf80

Im confused with the Heat Cycle term.... are you talking about the process of that you do when you prepare the new tire?

in the pictures the first three are for the rears tires, no bubbles on those, but was wondering if you think there is still enough thread to use them one more time.

The front one with the bubble cant be used.

Thanks.

The initial "break in" cycle you are referring to is helpful with extending life a little bit but it's not a must and that's not what I was referring to. It is typically recommended to be easy on the tires your first time out on them and then let them sit overnight before using them again, but most people don't have that luxury and don't bother. Many tire companies offer this service before delivering for a fee and they hook them up to a machine. I haven't found that to be worth it though.

A heat cycle is defined as how many times the tires have gone from cool-operating/track temp-back to cool. Basically asking how many track sessions are on them. Typically 4-5 per day in a standard HPDE event. The more heat cycles an R compound like hoosier r7's go through the less grip and life they will have remaining. Nitto NT01's are basically immune to heat cycling out and are fast until the inner carcass/threads are showing. Hoosier r7's tend to gradually fall off. By the 12th cycle or so they will be a good second per lap slower vs. new and will gradually get worse from there. They will often be ready for the garbage before you are visually out of rubber if your alignment setup is giving even tire wear. IMO r7's last roughly 6 track days or 25ish heat cycles before its time for new rubber. They will still work from there if you have rubber remaining but they will be noticeable slower and less predictable. Toyo RR's are known to last slightly longer than r7's do.

The ones in your photo visually are looking close to being finished. You can maybe get 1 more day out of them but hard to tell. I would not recommend putting new fronts on with those old rears though. The fronts would have noticeably more grip and the car would feel unbalanced.

Here is a joke we have in the porsche club racing.. Your wallet size often has a direct effect on how many heat cycles you think your tires last lol. It always amazed me how some guys throw their tires out after only 3-4 cycles at the club racing level.

[ptyf80]

Originally Posted by MannyM5

The initial "break in" cycle you are referring to is helpful with extending life a little bit but it's not a must and that's not what I was referring to. It is typically recommended to be easy on the tires your first time out on them and then let them sit overnight before using them again, but most people don't have that luxury and don't bother. Many tire companies offer this service before delivering for a fee and they hook them up to a machine. I haven't found that to be worth it though.

A heat cycle is defined as how many times the tires have gone from cool-operating/track temp-back to cool. Basically asking how many track sessions are on them. Typically 4-5 per day in a standard HPDE event. The more heat cycles an R compound like hoosier r7's go through the less grip and life they will have remaining. Nitto NT01's are basically immune to heat cycling out and are fast until the inner carcass/threads are showing. Hoosier r7's tend to gradually fall off. By the 12th cycle or so they will be a good second per lap slower vs. new and will gradually get worse from there. They will often be ready for the garbage before you are visually out of rubber if your alignment setup is giving even tire wear. IMO r7's last roughly 6 track days or 25ish heat cycles before its time for new rubber. They will still work from there if you have rubber remaining but they will be noticeable slower and less predictable. Toyo RR's are known to last slightly longer than r7's do.

The ones in your photo visually are looking close to being finished. You can maybe get 1 more day out of them but hard to tell. I would not recommend putting new fronts on with those old rears though. The fronts would have noticeably more grip and the car would feel unbalanced.

Here is a joke we have in the porsche club racing.. Your wallet size often has a direct effect on how many heat cycles you think your tires last lol. It always amazed me how some guys throw their tires out after only 3-4 cycles at the club racing level.

Thanks a lot for this insightful info. if thats the case the R7 must have like 16 heat cycles.

PTYf80

[SYT_Shadow]

forget R888R. That tire is complete garbage. I bought a set and might be faster around the track using wooden wheels

I don't think the debate should be square vs staggered. It should be about maximizing grip

Without modifications in the F8X you can fit 10" in the front and 11" in the rear.
That is staggered. There is no question that this is a setup that maximizes grip.

If you can fit 10.5 up front and 11 in the rear do that as well.

Don't be discouraged that the 295 hoosier isn't any wider. Chances are you need a 11" wheel to properly support that much tire in the first place.

I run square 10.5 (E92 M3 so different situation than you) and have run staggered tires on it, 275 front and 295 rear. The 295 rear is clearly 'pinched', requiring additional wheel width to be happy.

In terms of 18 vs 19, I vastly prefer the 18 if it clears your brakes. The 19 wheel has a really low profile which I absolutely do not want for serious tracking.

[ptyf80]

So today i picked up my new track wheels and tires.

Bimmerworld TE:AL TA16 Forged Race Wheels 18 x 10 ET 25 with the Toyo Proxes RR DOT Slicks 275 35 18 on all four corners.

I will hit the track on October 21st, but still need to install the camber plates and corner balance the car.

We´ll see how the square setup works.

BTW the Bimmerworld wheels looks amazing in gloss black and it feels very light at only 19.3bls.





ptyf80

[mcvaughan]

Originally Posted by ptyf80

So today i picked up my new track wheels and tires.

Bimmerworld TE:AL TA16 Forged Race Wheels 18 x 10 ET 25 with the Toyo Proxes RR DOT Slicks 275 35 18 on all four corners.

I will hit the track on October 21st, but still need to install the camber plates and corner balance the car.

We´ll see how the square setup works.

BTW the Bimmerworld wheels looks amazing in gloss black and it feels very light at only 19.3bls.

Attachment 1908223Attachment 1908225




ptyf80

Those look nice! Too bad they don't have an 11".

[CanAutM3]

In short, I'd say that in an ideal context, an 18" square setup is the preferred one for the F8X chassis. Want proof: look at the M4 GT4, it's running an 18" square setup.

The F8X remains a front weight biased chassis, meaning that the front tires need to work on average more than rears while cornering.

However there is a caveat. There is limited space in the front wheel wells in stock form. So putting the widest possible tire up front and matching the rear usually results in insufficient rear grip to handle the power a track out, hence why most folks deal with the compromise of a staggered setup (I am one of them ).

[tke743]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

forget R888R. That tire is complete garbage. I bought a set and might be faster around the track using wooden wheels

I have to second that. Had high hopes for them. Started okay, decent times and progressive breakaway, but heat cycled out after 5 HC. After 8 HC I was 4 seconds down on Lime Rock (a 1 minute track).

[hooligan317]

Originally Posted by tke743

I have to second that. Had high hopes for them. Started okay, decent times and progressive breakaway, but heat cycled out after 5 HC. After 8 HC I was 4 seconds down on Lime Rock (a 1 minute track).

Well crap, I was just looking at the R888R myself. Other options in 275/35/18 that aren't full slicks?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by tke743

I have to second that. Had high hopes for them. Started okay, decent times and progressive breakaway, but heat cycled out after 5 HC. After 8 HC I was 4 seconds down on Lime Rock (a 1 minute track).

Hmmm

So it seems the R888-R are no better than the the R888 in that respect. I had the exact same experience with the only set of R888 I experienced. Great grip out of the box, but heat-cycled out after only a few session with a significant fallout in grip.

[tke743]

Originally Posted by hooligan317

Well crap, I was just looking at the R888R myself. Other options in 275/35/18 that aren't full slicks?

RE-71r's are popular, but wear quickly, sticky till corded.
NT-01's are also popular, sticky till corded.
VENTUS R-S4, not as sticky, wear like iron.

Toyo-RR - Nearly slicks, but not quite. So far so good. 10 HC and no real drop off.

[bracer]

SO...

I'm thinking about a square set of 18x10.5" ET34-38 rims with 305x645x18 square Pirelli DH slicks. If you run a 20mm spacer on the front you could then have a true square setup and rotate wheels as needed.

[tke743]

Originally Posted by blackey

SO...

I'm thinking about a square set of 18x10.5" ET34-38 rims with 305x645x18 square Pirelli DH slicks. If you run a 20mm spacer on the front you could then have a true square setup and rotate wheels as needed.

Doubt it will fit, but would be awesome if it could.