CCB or aftermarket Brembo brakes?

[Grock]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Don't pull this crap on me. The M4 is the heaviest car Audi has ever heard of.

Hey I was on the same page with you. I don't understand your reply, especially the first two sentences above.

[gee-m-w]

"Your car is so heavy" sounded like a dig at me. I don't need to remove seats or do anything to have fun with it.

My point is Audi also makes a 400 HP car that weighs under 3000 pounds for less than an M3. A 3450 pound M3 is a cool achievement but let's not kid ourselves about it being the best anyone can do.

[JMon]

I've been following this tread for a while now. Wow you bmw guys can drag out a thread.
Too bad the steel figment calipers aren't 6 pot.
The M4 is a "big girl". Not to knock it, but she could stand to loose a few hundred pounds. She needs good brakes.
I've seen many students have issues at DEs especially turn 7 at Sebring with the current M3. Street tires. That being said, the new slightly bigger brakes may help out, especially if they are 380s.
Us "porsche" guys have been on and off the ccb brakes for some time. That being said, I know of no one that is serious DE and/or race that uses ccb.
I run 350s on my race car and can hit about 12 hours on as set of pagid greens. Performance is great and cheap to operate.

Besides the proper pads + fluid, cooling is a big thing to consider. Get that mod correct and you will save a bunch of $$$$ over the long term. Cooling, cooling , cooling....

The idea of ccb is alluring. Take the car to the track, then home without spending 1/2 hour swapping pads is nice.

Wear is still questionable. If bmw published some true track usage stats out I may consider the ccbs if they showed usage 4x. But we know that won't happen. Can't even get lap times out of them.

If the ccbs where porsche price, I would't get them, but BMW is pricing them so Cheap it is difficult to say no, especially knowing someone will undoubtedly make
Steel rotors and associated pads to fit the ccb calipers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JMon

If the ccbs where porsche price, I would't get them, but BMW is pricing them so Cheap it is difficult to say no

How is $8k+ or more importantly 13% of the vehicles base price "cheap"? Sure Porsche is much more of a "robbery" but I just can't see my way to "cheap" here.

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by JMon

If the ccbs where porsche price, I would't get them, but BMW is pricing them so Cheap it is difficult to say no, especially knowing someone will undoubtedly make
Steel rotors and associated pads to fit the ccb calipers.

You do realize that BMW CCBs are only 2 bills (or one sushi binge) less...991 CS PCCB option is $8530. The same option on a Cayman is $7400 with smaller rotors, a car with a similar sticker price to an M3/4.

Pricing is essentially the same or LESS from Porsche. If BMW would have priced them at $6K I bet they would double the number of takers.

Get them because they're cool and you want them and yes they work better under some circumstances but not for the $$. Same criteria as extended or full leather. Reason?...because. I'm checking that box.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by consolidated

You do realize that BMW CCBs are only 2 bills (or one sushi binge) less...991 CS PCCB option is $8530.

Thanks. An obvious correction needed to my post just above... I assumed, with a general knowledge of P car and P car options prices, that what the fellow I agreed with stated was a fact. It obviously wasn't. Although I see $8520 for the 991 CS on the US website...

[Sedan_Clan]

This thread just got real!

[gee-m-w]

I offer the following assertion for admission to the record of bimmerpost facts:

The performance gap between CCB and steel disc brakes is as great as the gap between steel disc brakes and drum brakes.

You guys can drive around on caveman brakes all you want. The fastest, safest people out there will be running CCB on every sports car over $60k. Every premium sports car offers them or will offer them, and inside of this decade they will be standard on premium models. Mercedes is a safety leader and will likely make them standard first on the SLS, and then the AMG-S models.

[Tonymiabmw]

Cant believe this still on going...what 3 or 4 weeks?

[JMon]

Sorry, I thought the PCCBs for Porsche was $15k
Seems like it is a lot less. (As noted above)

I think the Porsche replacement rotors are expensive. I just checked and
Suncoast(Dealer) charges $9,400 for a set of fronts.
Then $8,000 for a set of rears.

So we should check on the CCB replacement costs.....
Does anyone know what BMW charges for CCB rotors, say maybe on an M5/M6

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I offer the following assertion for admission to the record of bimmerpost facts:

The performance gap between CCB and steel disc brakes is as great as the gap between steel disc brakes and drum brakes.

You guys can drive around on caveman brakes all you want. The fastest, safest people out there will be running CCB on every sports car over $60k. Every premium sports car offers them or will offer them, and inside of this decade they will be standard on premium models. Mercedes is a safety leader and will likely make them standard first on the SLS, and then the AMG-S models.

You're asserting something that hasn't been proven, and making a claim that contradicts what most of the Porsche guys have been saying. Why do you continue to spout this stuff?

[pb12]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

Cant believe this still on going...what 3 or 4 weeks?

Yeah, I'm out. Guys want to parse syllables and argue symantic points.

I'm an owner of current generation PCCB's and I love them. I wonder how many who are against them have actually driven and lived with a car that has them. If all you want to do is argue "they cost too much" fine. But it's a free market, and I'm an informed buyer and think them great value. A budy of mine used to say there are those that know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. I'd say this is a perfect example of that.

M

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You're asserting something that hasn't been proven, and making a claim that contradicts what most of the Porsche guys have been saying. Why do you continue to spout this stuff?

Here is a news flash. Things can be proven before BMW proves them on a 3 series. They can even be proven on another BMW like an M5 or an M6. The error in your analysis of 10 year old Rennlist posts is that a race pad for CCB was introduced at the end of 2012, the Pagid RSC1. Use a race pad for track duty and your rotor will last the life of the car. No need to replace rotors because you ruined them with street pads or steel brake race pads.

End of story. Stop convincing people to live in the past. Luddite.

I can buy Audi ceramics for less than the sales tax on an M3 so I am evaluating that. You can get steel rotors and send your BMW to the dealer every other year for free replacement caveman rotors, and drive a loaner 328i for a week while they do the service.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by pb12

I'm an owner of current generation PCCB's and I love them. I wonder how many who are against them have actually driven and lived with a car that has them.

One of the great message board myths, only those that own something are qualified to discuss its merits or draw backs. The whole science, engineering, finance as well as shared experience from those judged to have appropriate expertise or experience completely overrules this idea.

Originally Posted by pb12

If all you want to do is argue "they cost too much" fine. But it's a free market, and I'm an informed buyer and think them great value. A budy of mine used to say there are those that know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. I'd say this is a perfect example of that.

In my opinion you have not established yourself as an informed buyer nor that they have value. I say this particularly due to our exchange about CSiC brakes having better feel.

Could there be be a shade of rationalization of a a bad investment here?

[Tonymiabmw]

Originally Posted by pb12

Yeah, I'm out. Guys want to parse syllables and argue symantic points.

I'm an owner of current generation PCCB's and I love them. I wonder how many who are against them have actually driven and lived with a car that has them. If all you want to do is argue "they cost too much" fine. But it's a free market, and I'm an informed buyer and think them great value. A budy of mine used to say there are those that know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. I'd say this is a perfect example of that.

M

Well I ordered them after changing my mind reading stuff off Rennlist not these numb skulls who have no talking point or experience with them. So anyone interested. Go do research on the Porsche forum you will get further.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

...going to go the track 10 weekends ...would cost you over $10,000 in track entrance fees and hotel nights

Rubbish. You could do it for 1/2 this amount. 10 2 day events @ $300 per, plus $125 hotel x 2 nights = $5500. Doesn't count transportation, food or maintenance, but you could also buddy up to cut hotel cost in half.

Edit: I see you are changing your post...

[ZGM3]

I just noticed that my previous post which is a response below by gee-m-w got erased???? Not sure how that happened or why...

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

You're going to go the track 10 weekends the first year you get the M3, with your M3? Ummmm. How many realistically?

That would cost you over $10,000 in track entrance fees and hotel nights, not including gasoline and maintenance. I presume money wouldn't be a problem in this case.

Ok your right, I might have exaggerated the # of days slightly since I only had 9 track days in the past year, with 4-5 more planned in the next 2 months (so 14 days but still more time in the year left). But I am signing up for more and more events each year, so there would be a good possibility that I would be at 20 days a year by the time I take delivery of my M3.

I don't mind paying for the track time and hotel/gas since that's the FUN TIME, so an additional $10,000 for the possibility of slightly better braking feel and unknown longer brake life adds no fun to my track times.

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

Use a race pad for track duty and your rotor will last the life of the car. .

I would never buy for the BLING factor, I personally can't stand the gold color, but if the rotors did last the life of the car (100,0000 plus miles) then they would be worth it, I just don't want to have an expensive replacement cost after a couple years of ownership.


If BMW made a statement that they would replace the PCCB's rotors and pads for the first 50k or 4years even if the car is tracked then probably everyone that tracks would buy them. If they only guaranteed the rotors for the 50k/4years I'd buy them also, but as I stated before I think that you might not be correct in your assessment that the rotors will last forever if tracked!!

You have upgraded so much of your car but not your wheel and tire set up, WHY?

Enough writing, time to get outside and into the great Colorado powder that's falling...

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by pb12

I'm an owner of current generation PCCB's and I love
M

How many miles have you put on them? How am any track days if any and what type of wear have you experienced?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ZGM3

Ok your right, I might have exaggerated the # of days slightly since I only had 9 track days in the past year, with 4-5 more planned in the next 2 months (so 14 days but still more time in the year left). But I am signing up for more and more events each year, so there would be a good possibility that I would be at 20 days a year by the time I take delivery of my M3.

Touche to geemw!

Good overall post (not just the part I quoted).

So much for his attempt to call out folks whom he obviously had no idea what their level of enthusiasm and commitment is...

[M4TW]

When people say "don't buy the CCB's unless it's for the BLING factor" (apart from unfairly passing over their other advantages) might also be underestimating their bling. Having seen them on the M3/4 at an auto show I was impressed by how great they look in RL. The M235 that was also on display, by comparison, had the M Compound Brakes. The blue calipers looked tiny by comparison and the discs looked much uglier because they weren't cross-drilled. If it wasn't for the fact that the cross drilling also make the M Compound brakes look nice on the M3/4 if would be a no-brainer. The silver cross-drilled discs really shine through the the rims producing a nice effect (beyond the large gold calipers) that is always going to look good.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by M4TW

When people say "don't buy the CCB's unless it's for the BLING factor" (apart from unfairly passing over their other advantages) might also be underestimating their bling. Having seen them on the M3/4 at an auto show I was impressed by how great they look in RL. The M235 that was also on display, by comparison, had the M Compound Brakes. The blue calipers looked tiny by comparison and the discs looked much uglier because they weren't cross-drilled. If it wasn't for the fact that the cross drilling also make the M Compound brakes look nice on the M3/4 if would be a no-brainer. The silver cross-drilled discs really shine through the the rims producing a nice effect (beyond the large gold calipers) that is always going to look good.

So how much are you personally willing to pay, perhaps both at the time of purchase and at the time of replacement (of course only if you drive your car really hard) for something largely cosmetic?

Don't get me wrong, they are huge, high tech and "blingy" for sure but brakes are one area where we should take function over form...

[e92involved]

WHoa