Teaser: M4 GTS vs 911 GT3 at Hockenheim (Sport Auto)

[Powaup]

man that was fun! do it again!

[VCP]

Did you snap a selfie of yourself saying that?

Originally Posted by Bashful

Just to add gas to the fire....

Sure the Carrera is the Base for the GT3..... but are we forgetting that the GTS's base car isn't exactly an M4......

its a 428i (in europe maybe they have a 420 or something...but you get the point)

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Oh well, in my book the 137kg more porky M4 GTS is nothing but the bargin of the year. In time people will understand that this is something special, mind you the gt3 is 137kg lighter and only is 4 tenths faster on short hockenheim than that porky M4 GTS, now thats a special car, only a very very special car could pull that off. For the performance it deliver its cheep.

Put it against a 991 GT3 that is same weight and GTS will outlap the 991 GT3.

I disagree with your logic. GTS may be heavier but it's also making a lot more torque (which is a huge advantage) and in reality I'd venture to say it's very underrated giving it a significant hp advantage too (dyno suggests 550 hp).
Both cars with equal power to weight, I'd put my money on the GT3. .4 seconds on hockenheim may not sound like a lot of time, but on a lap that short, it's significant. Just like a 1 second gap on a 2-3 min circuit would be a big difference.
Overall I'd say the GT3 and the RS even more so are the more special fees.

Just food for thought, a regular 911 turbo, which is heavier than the GTS and only 520 hp does Hockenheim in 1:08.7.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's noteworthy that the 991.2 Carrera S is just 2 seconds slower than the GT3 around Nurburgring (7:34 vs 7:32). And the Carrera S and GT3 did the exact same 1:09.6s lap time around Hockenheim (in the most recent test the GT3 did it in 1:09.2, so 4/10ths faster than the GTS and Carrera S). So relative to it's siblings, the GT3 only provides a minor improvement in lap times whereas the GTS offers a substantial improvement in lap times...

So, complete bargain for the price is probably a question of how you define bargain... 2 sec faster than a std Carrera S on the Nurburgring and the exact same time at Hockenheim doesn't sound like a bargain for what is supposed to be a track car...

You need to specify whether it is the GT3 or GT3RS. It means a world of difference in terms of context. For instance, look at these times.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife

http://fastestlaps.com/tests/lkhel4svjvli

[VCP]

Anyway, we are closing the gap! The M4 was targeted at the Carrera S and it was successful. The GTS was aimed at the GT3 and a great job was done.

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

I disagree with your logic. GTS may be heavier but it's also making a lot more torque (which is a huge advantage) and in reality I'd venture to say it's very underrated giving it a significant hp advantage too.
Both cars with equal power to weight, I'd put my money on the GT3. .4 seconds on hockenheim may not sound like a lot of time, but on a lap that short, it's significant. Just like a 1 second gap on a 2-3 min circuit would be a big difference.
Overall I'd say the GT3 and the RS even more so are the more special fees.

Just food for thought, a regular 911 turbo, which is heavier than the GTS and only 520 hp does Hockenheim in 1:08.7.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

You need to specify whether it is the GT3 or GT3RS. It means a world of difference in terms of context. For instance, look at these times.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife

http://fastestlaps.com/tests/lkhel4svjvli

If I had meant the GT3 RS I would have posted the times for the RS, and written GT3 RS... All times was for the GT3. Since that is the topic of this thread (Sport Auto compares the GTS to the GT3, not to the GT3 RS).

[VCP]

It is also noteworthy that only 1 lap was done. Joerg went out with cold tire for the first few corners. He had to wait until traffic was clear and did this with 40Kilos of test equipment in trunk. No dialing of suspension or Aero. Still a solid time.

Originally Posted by IS3andME

You need to specify whether it is the GT3 or GT3RS. It means a world of difference in terms of context. For instance, look at these times.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife

http://fastestlaps.com/tests/lkhel4svjvli

[hellrotm]

What are rumored upgrades for the .2 GT3? My guess would be it is getting the 4.0L.

[dgp]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Oh well, in my book the 137kg more porky M4 GTS is nothing but the bargin of the year. In time people will understand that this is something special, mind you the gt3 is 137kg lighter and only is 4 tenths faster on short hockenheim than that porky M4 GTS, now thats a special car, only a very very special car could pull that off. For the performance it deliver its cheep.

Put it against a 991 GT3 that is same weight and GTS will outlap the 991 GT3.

Yep. I think the upcoming CSL might eclipse that and get closer to GT3RS lap times. Time will tell

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I may have misunderstood the GTS technical document on the rear diff, and the exhaust might be the same as the MPE. But the short block DO have a unique part number for the GTS. That's not bogus, unless you mean that BMW part numbers are bogus off course

Unless I have trouble with my reading or that RealOEM is wrong, I see the same block part number (which includes the bedplate) for the base F8x, CP F8x and GTS...

Don't confuse with what is called the "short engine" that includes way more than just the "block"; other components could explain the difference

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

I disagree with your logic. GTS may be heavier but it's also making a lot more torque (which is a huge advantage) and in reality I'd venture to say it's very underrated giving it a significant hp advantage too (dyno suggests 550 hp).
Both cars with equal power to weight, I'd put my money on the GT3. .4 seconds on hockenheim may not sound like a lot of time, but on a lap that short, it's significant. Just like a 1 second gap on a 2-3 min circuit would be a big difference.
Overall I'd say the GT3 and the RS even more so are the more special fees.

Just food for thought, a regular 911 turbo, which is heavier than the GTS and only 520 hp does Hockenheim in 1:08.7.

I have only seen one dyno of the GTS and that said 49x hp at the flywheel. Which dyno showed 550hp?

That a 991 Turbo, with 20hp more than the GTS and a lower center of gravity, is lapping faster than the GT3 and GTS around Hockenheim just shows what a great base car the 991 is. But it's hardly surprising that a car with 520hp can beat a 500hp car, especially when the higher hp car has some design advantages to begin with (one is a sports car while the other is a coupe based on a 3-4 series family sedan/coupe).

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by VCP

Anyway, we are closing the gap! The M4 was targeted at the Carrera S and it was successful. The GTS was aimed at the GT3 and a great job was done.

Though, a current 2017 Carrera S on the same tires would be faster than the GTS.

Let's face it, the GTS is an RS competitor and doesn't quite match a regular GT3 even though the GT3 is several years old and ready for a refresh compared to a just released M4 GTS.
I don't think the M4 was targeted as a Carrera S either, very different markets and buyers. Demographic there is really worlds apart. And the M4 isn't close when it comes to lap times in comparison. Again, not the same buyers is more the rule than exception.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I have only seen one dyno of the GTS and that said 49x hp at the flywheel. Which dyno showed 550hp?

That a 991 Turbo, with 20hp more than the GTS and a lower center of gravity, is lapping faster than the GT3 and GTS around Hockenheim just shows what a great base car the 991 is. But it's hardly surprising that a car with 520hp can beat a 500hp car, especially when the higher hp car has some design advantages to begin with (one is a sports car while the other is a coupe based on a 3-4 series family sedan/coupe).

Plus the big advantage of torque vectoring AWD on a tight track

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I have only seen one dyno of the GTS and that said 49x hp at the flywheel. Which dyno showed 550hp?

That a 991 Turbo, with 20hp more than the GTS and a lower center of gravity, is lapping faster than the GT3 and GTS around Hockenheim just shows what a great base car the 991 is. But it's hardly surprising that a car with 520hp can beat a 500hp car, especially when the higher hp car has some design advantages to begin with (one is a sports car while the other is a coupe based on a 3-4 series family sedan/coupe).

The dyno said 492 at the wheels, from BBM. Unless I'm mistaken...which I don't think I am based on what I saw.

My point with the 911 turbo was it has similar power of you believe the GTS only makes 500 and more weight yet is a lot faster because the torque makes a difference.

EOD I'd take a GT3 or RS given wnat they have over an M4 GTS but the GTS did bring a good car overall car.

[technik330]

Nothing but respect for the GTS, but I'd take a GT3 every single day of the week over the GTS.

[VCP]

From performance perspective the Carrera S was the focus. 7:52 M4 7:50 Carrera S

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Though, a current 2017 Carrera S on the same tires would be faster than the GTS.

Let's face it, the GTS is an RS competitor and doesn't quite match a regular GT3 even though the GT3 is several years old and ready for a refresh compared to a just released M4 GTS.
I don't think the M4 was targeted as a Carrera S either, very different markets and buyers. Demographic there is really worlds apart. And the M4 isn't close when it comes to lap times in comparison. Again, not the same buyers is more the rule than exception.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

The dyno said 492 at the wheels, from BBM. Unless I'm mistaken...which I don't think I am based on what I saw.

My point with the 911 turbo was it has similar power of you believe the GTS only makes 500 and more weight yet is a lot faster because the torque makes a difference.

EOD I'd take a GT3 or RS given wnat they have over an M4 GTS but the GTS did bring a good car overall car.

Nope.



http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1270153

It's at the "clutch" . Not quite sure how a Dynojet does that, might be some sort of extrapolation based on rundown time, but it is not whp.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Unless I have trouble with my reading or that RealOEM is wrong, I see the same block part number (which includes the bedplate) for the base F8x, CP F8x and GTS...

Don't confuse with what is called the "short engine" that includes way more than just the "block"; other components could explain the difference

I do know the difference between a block and a short engine. The block is simply just the block and bedplate. That only makes up a part of the complete engine. Which is why I explicitly referred to the short engine when I mentioned the different part numbers. The short engine includes a complete engine without ancilliaries. I would say that it's more likely that any GTS upgrades are on the other parts than on the engine block. We know the bedplate has been upgraded but apparently other parts of the engine is different as well. I haven't looked into part numbers like the cylinder head, camshafts etc, but I suspect it's only minor differences that makes for the different part number on the short engine. However it's interesting that the short engine has a unique GTS part number.

[technik330]

This review should've compared a ZCP M4 to the GT3 and the GTS to a GT3 RS. What's the point in taking the top model of one car versus the 'base' of another?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by VCP

From performance perspective the Carrera S was the focus. 7:52 M4 7:50 Carrera S

The Carrera S did 7:44 and the new turbo'd 991.2 Carrera S did 7:34 (Sport Auto Supertest lap times)

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I do know the difference between a block and a short engine. The block is simply just the block and bedplate. That only makes up a part of the complete engine. Which is why I explicitly referred to the short engine when I mentioned the different part numbers. The short engine includes a complete engine without ancilliaries. I would say that it's more likely that any GTS upgrades are on the other parts than on the engine block. We know the bedplate has been upgraded but apparently other parts of the engine is different as well. I haven't looked into part numbers like the cylinder head, camshafts etc, but I suspect it's only minor differences that makes for the different part number on the short engine. However it's interesting that the short engine has a unique GTS part number.

I was specific about the block because you mentioned "(at) the very least you have to start with a CP engine that has the upgraded stronger bedplate".

I just wanted to dispel that on-going rumor about a bespoke bedplate for the CP and GTS .

From my various readings, I suspect the oil pan is different on the GTS to improve high-g oil pick-up. The GTS oil pan part number is not listed in RealOEM. That could be one of the differences.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by technik330

This review should've compared a ZCP M4 to the GT3 and the GTS to a GT3 RS. What's the point in taking the top model of one car versus the 'base' of another?

Leave that to the CSL

Carrera -> M4
Carrera S -> M4 CP
GT3 -> M4 GTS
GT3 RS -> CSL

...leaving the AWD models out of the picture.