Disappointed with Pure Stage 2 HF - Advise

[Msm1984]

Hello all,

I have been running Ps2 HF turbos on my car for about a year. Although I don't drive the car much, I have been very unimpressed with the overall power output and lag that the turbos have been producing to where I actually prefer how the car ran on just BM3 stage 2 with stock turbos.

I have a built motor on my car with a custom tune done by a known tuner here It has been difficult to dial the tune in, and when it finally is dialed in, it really seems that the overall power is just low compared to what the car should be capable of. The main thing I truly don't like is the overall lack of torque or time it makes for the car to make any torque.

The car has been tested for leaks which were coming from around the turbo inlets and charge pipes and some were found after the attached dyno results were performed. I will say even with all of the leaks fixed, the car doesn't feel much faster than it was a stock turbo stage 2 car and still lacks a tremendous amount of torque. It is difficult to even spin the tires on the car in second gear which is absurd with a custom tune with almost 30 revisions at this point. I only run 93 fuel from shell or mobile.


Mods are
high flow cts downpipes
upgraded charge and jpipe
aa single mid
mpe rear
cts tmic
eu5 injectors
gapped ngk 97506 to .020
dct cooler


When the motor was built, here is what was done...

Block deck service
Deck cylinder head
Cam journal
Performance valve job
Replaced intake cam shaft
Forged rods and components
E Carrillo pistons
Heavy duty wrist pins
Upgraded rod bearings calico coated
Arp head studs
Cometic head gasket

Since the engine was built, the car has less that 7k miles put on it.

Below, see some of the most recent logs that have been done. Is there any evidence of a boost leak here or maybe the turbos need to be recalibrated?



https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6636...67481946767146
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=662e...6a15715c590347

[b_w.]

Any dyno results you can post? Should be no surprise the power band was shifted up...stock turbos are tiny. What are your expectations? You are going to be limited on 93 only.

I am on a single turbo and 93 only and my upper expectations are 600 whp.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by b_w.

Any dyno results you can post? Should be no surprise the power band was shifted up...stock turbos are tiny. What are your expectations? You are going to be limited on 93 only.

I am on a single turbo and 93 only and my upper expectations are 600 whp.

The dyno results are attached in the pdf. I was hoping 600whp/tq as the tuner said should be achievable

Making less than 500wtq on upgraded turbos with a custom tune is a problem

[Track/S]

Full boost at 4800rpm... it seems that there is something wrong, did you connect the diagnosis to see if it registers any errors?

Did you install the turbos after rebuilding the engine?

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Full boost at 4800rpm... it seems that there is something wrong, did you connect the diagnosis to see if it registers any errors?

Did you install the turbos after rebuilding the engine?

Turbos were installed after engine was rebuilt. Car has no codes through BM3 or ISTA. I am hoping there is something wrong instead of this just being normal performance for these turbos as the lag makes the driving experience so boring.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

Turbos were installed after engine was rebuilt. Car has no codes through BM3 or ISTA. I am hoping there is something wrong instead of this just being normal performance for these turbos as the lag makes the driving experience so boring.

I heard that PS2 HF had a lot of lag but 4800 is crazy, if there is no error then the problem is the turbos.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I heard that PS2 HF had a lot of lag but 4800 is crazy, if there is no error then the problem is the turbos.

Yeah the car seems absolutely dead until then 4000 then at 4500ish is when it starts to feel like it is waking up. Personally i strongly dislike that

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

Yeah the car seems absolutely dead until then 4000 then at 4500ish is when it starts to feel like it is waking up. Personally i strongly dislike that

Nobody likes laggy response, you should build smaller ones and forget about the PS2.

[Nyc911]

Very odd I’m running a similar engine build w Schrick Cams and running pure P1000 turbos

I’m pushing about 680hp and 60bs of torque through all of the power band over stock

Something seems wrong, perhaps your tune isn’t optimized?

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Nyc911

Very odd I’m running a similar engine build w Schrick Cams and running pure P1000 turbos

I’m pushing about 680hp and 60bs of torque through all of the power band over stock

Something seems wrong, perhaps your tune isn’t optimized?

I mean I was sure as hell hoping by this time it would be optimized considering ive done close to 30 revisions or more at this point. When boost is hit at 28psi, wgdc drops to around 91% . I don’t think it is a tuning issue rather than something is wrong with the build ( lots of engine ticking noise ) or the turbos are not calibrated correctly.

The fact that once again full throttle i can barely spin the tires in second gear on a custom 93 tune with upgraded turbos is embarrassing.

Are you running just 93 or a blend/upgraded fueling

[Nyc911]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

I mean I was sure as hell hoping by this time it would be optimized considering ive done close to 30 revisions or more at this point. When boost is hit at 28psi, wgdc drops to around 91% . I don’t think it is a tuning issue rather than something is wrong with the build ( lots of engine ticking noise ) or the turbos are not calibrated correctly.

The fact that once again full throttle i can barely spin the tires in second gear on a custom 93 tune with upgraded turbos is embarrassing.

Are you running just 93 or a blend/upgraded fueling

I’m running 93 only and only have about 10 revisions so still dialing in some things to smooth out the curve

Have you had the turbos aligned? That might cause issues on higher boost. I’m only about 25-26psi at peek

Did you upgrade the LP and HP fuel pump?

My tuner has me gapped at .023

The ticking could be 2 things you’re running the wrong oil or when they put your engine together they didn’t have the right tool and it’s not perfectly aligned halves and your car shaft is hitting metal. Or it’s just a built motor tick mine makes a very slight tick

PM me if you want to discuss tuners

[Schemxr]

you might wanna switch your tuner. those numbers are absolutely unacceptable for the amount of mods you have done. those turbos are still capable up for 700whp and definitely more than 650wtq and you can get close to that on a stock motor stock turbo setup. your tuner seems like the problem

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

I mean I was sure as hell hoping by this time it would be optimized considering ive done close to 30 revisions or more at this point. When boost is hit at 28psi, wgdc drops to around 91% . I don’t think it is a tuning issue rather than something is wrong with the build ( lots of engine ticking noise ) or the turbos are not calibrated correctly.

The fact that once again full throttle i can barely spin the tires in second gear on a custom 93 tune with upgraded turbos is embarrassing.

Are you running just 93 or a blend/upgraded fueling

the engine ticking noise is the injectors.
as for the wastegate calibration, you can hook up bmw ista and perform wastegate calibration to see if it needs to be adjusted.

also try doing a smoke test to see if there is a minor boost leak somewhere in the system

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

the engine ticking noise is the injectors.
as for the wastegate calibration, you can hook up bmw ista and perform wastegate calibration to see if it needs to be adjusted.

also try doing a smoke test to see if there is a minor boost leak somewhere in the system

Last smoke test that was done there was nothing coming from the turbos.

Car is going to Miamiengines this week where the car was built to inspect a noise the car is making as it is still under warranty.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mV5srq_oq...9Z_o29zydKl5uP

That is the sound it is making and seems similar to a car from this thread here

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1662826&page=3

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

you might wanna switch your tuner. those numbers are absolutely unacceptable for the amount of mods you have done. those turbos are still capable up for 700whp and definitely more than 650wtq and you can get close to that on a stock motor stock turbo setup. your tuner seems like the problem

Those are feasible numbers on complete stock fueling outside of eu5 injectors running only 93?

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

Last smoke test that was done there was nothing coming from the turbos.

Car is going to Miamiengines this week where the car was built to inspect a noise the car is making as it is still under warranty.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mV5srq_oq...9Z_o29zydKl5uP

That is the sound it is making and seems similar to a car from this thread here

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1662826&page=3

miami engines is a good shop, they’ll get you right. noise kinda sounds like the wastegates tbh. makes sense if car isn’t making enough power and wastegate duty cycle is being almost maxed out. goodluck, keep us posted

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

Those are feasible numbers on complete stock fueling outside of eu5 injectors running only 93?

hmmm only 93 probably not. i would highly recommend just going flex fuel. bm3 flex fuel kit is the way to go if you’re running the car without motiv reflex.
e50 will get you to 700 no doubt.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

hmmm only 93 probably not. i would highly recommend just going flex fuel. bm3 flex fuel kit is the way to go if you’re running the car without motiv reflex.
e50 will get you to 700 no doubt.

For 93 the result is correct, what the OP needs is a faster spool, those ps2 hf don't work.

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Track/S

For 93 the result is correct, what the OP needs is a faster spool, those ps2 hf don't work.

are these the new set pures released?

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

are these the new set pures released?

Not, old version.

[chetrickerman]

It is unrealistic to expect a motor with larger turbos to spool up and have as much response as it did with stock turbos. Time to torque is going to increase when the rotor group is physically larger, and PS2 HF are a good bit larger than OEM turbos, so some lag is inevitable.

That being said, your fuel quality looks pretty poor, with the low ignition advance, yet you are still getting significant timing corrections, and your AFR looks like it's in a safe range.

Have you tried using octane booster to see if it helps with your timing corrections?

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

It is unrealistic to expect a motor with larger turbos to spool up and have as much response as it did with stock turbos. Time to torque is going to increase when the rotor group is physically larger, and PS2 HF are a good bit larger than OEM turbos, so some lag is inevitable.

That being said, your fuel quality looks pretty poor, with the low ignition advance, yet you are still getting significant timing corrections, and your AFR looks like it's in a safe range.

Have you tried using octane booster to see if it helps with your timing corrections?

Thank you so much for reviewing the logs. I have been working with my tuner on getting this dialed in for almost a year now and this has been an on going issue, and in that time frame I have gotten gas from so many difference places I can't imagine the fuel quality being bad at all of them. That being said, I have never tried an octane booster or adding like a gallon of E85 to the car.

I religiously use 93 Shell and would have a good sample size of different stations by now so if the fuel quality is bad at all of them, I may as well just give up trying to run 93, but Southeast FL in general seems to have pretty good fuel.

This log here is the last log where my tuner said everything looked great, but I commented saying the car still feels kind of slow so boost has since been brought down and timing has been changed as you have seen in other logs posted here.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=65e0...a2d701078ff549

What do you think of this log?

I still feel the WGDC is pretty high, and overall the car just feels dead until 5k ish. I understand that these turbos take longer to spool up and you can't compare them to oem turbos, but I really find it crazy how even now if I floor the car from low RPMs in second gear, the car doesn't even spin the tires. It just feels like there is very little torque as also illustrated from the dyno results which are attached below.

Granted, at the time of this dyno, a smoke test was done after the fact showing some leaks coming from the around the inlets of the turbos. Even after this was fixed, the performance still feels the same but I have not dynoed it again since.