M3/M4 CSL with S65 engine !?

[jonasaurus]

No chance... but nice try!

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by Brosef

those aren't existing engine platforms. they'd never use the V8 since the M3 always has historically had two fewer cylinders than the M5/6, and making a V6 out of that block isn't nearly as simple as lopping off two cylinders.

BUT there are very strange rumors that an M-GmbH V6 based on an S63Tü with two cylinders lopped off allready exists !?

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

BUT there are very strange rumors that an M-GmbH V6 based on an S63Tü with two cylinders lopped off allready exists !?

I'm sure they made some prototypes (they did announce publicly that they were testing it after all, so it's not like they were making a secret of it), but they obviously made a business decision (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) that the I-6 S55 was a superior choice.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by Brosef

... but they obviously made a business decision (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) that the I-6 S55 was a superior choice.

Not necessarily ... the main reason for choosing the N55 as base for the S55 were the loser production cost, because such an engine can be produced in the regular Produktion line in the Steyr plant and shares many parts with the normal AG engines.

[MrCsquared]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

11hp more doesn´t count very much ... don´t think you would feel it !

And according to my informations the S55 weights 205kg - complete with all parts(!) ... and new M-DCT(as best gearbox option) is also some kg heavier than the old one ... so engine and gearbox weights the same, if S65 and it DCT weights not a little bit less ... doesn´t count much, but less weight is so also no proper argument !!!

I usually do not respond to these comments but this is the largest misconception I have come across in the F8X forum thus far. I will let you two continue the conversation following this.

The S55 is making max horsepower for almost 2000rpm, at 425, between ~5500-~7300 (can't remember the exact points and too lazy to look it up). The 11hp figure as a difference is being thrown around in such an irrelevant sense by too many people. It is not "just 11hp more and you can't feel it", but instead 425hp over almost 2000rpm compared to 414 at one point in the S65, which one will most definitely feel.

Please look at the average power of the two curves. Yes, one will be able to feel the difference when driving the cars as the S55 is producing noticeably more power at all points on the curve, especially after 5500. BMW did not release a motor who's power is only so slightly increased that there is no benefit to upgrade.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by MrCsquared

I usually do not respond to these comments but this is the largest misconception I have come across in the F8X forum thus far. I will let you two continue the conversation following this.

The S55 is making max horsepower for almost 2000rpm, at 425, between ~5500-~7300 (can't remember the exact points and too lazy to look it up). The 11hp figure as a difference is being thrown around in such an irrelevant sense by too many people. It is not "just 11hp more and you can't feel it", but instead 425hp over almost 2000rpm compared to 414 at one point in the S65, which one will most definitely feel.

Please look at the average power of the two curves. Yes, one will be able to feel the difference when driving the cars as the S55 is producing noticeably more power at all points on the curve, especially after 5500. BMW did not release a motor who's power is only so slightly increased that there is no benefit to upgrade.

I think you simply don't know the power delivery philosophy the BMW M-GmbH has until today ... an tradition of M3 engines for more than 40 years, which make this cars so unique and fast in track, and this without extra high torque numbers especially in low end ranges. This 40 years of great BMW Ms racing insired engines couldn't be wrong, since all M3s were much faster in track than nearly all competitors in its class ... with the engine change to the S55 the new M3/M4 will be nothing other in engine characteristic than bis competitors but most probably with minimum ~ 60hp less and also even probably with an smaller weight advantage for the M3/M4.
For me the new F8x lives only from his much better chassis, suspension and brakes to be faster than bis precessor ... will be interesting to see if this is enough to be M3 like superior vs. its main competitors, because the new engine doesn't make the M3 so unique and special vs the competition as the engines in the past !!!

[MrCsquared]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

I think you simply don't know the power delivery philosophy the BMW M-GmbH has until today ... an tradition of M3 engines for more than 40 years, which make this cars so unique and fast in track, and this without extra high torque numbers especially in low end ranges. This 40 years of great couldn't be wrong, since all M3s were much faster in track than nearly all competitors in its class ... with the engine change to the S55 the new M3/M4 will be nothing other in engine characteristic than bis competitors but most probably with minimum ~ 60hp less and also even probably with an smaller weight advantage for the M3/M4.
For me the new F8x lives only from his much better chassis, suspension and brakes to be faster than bis precessor ... will be interesting to see if this is enough to be M3 like superior vs. its main competitors, because the new engine doesn't make the M3 unique and special vs the competition as the engines in the past !!!

That was somewhat of an ignorant response, claiming I do not know the history of the power delivery. I am very aware actually, and do recognize the significant change that has taken place. However, to simply discredit this car based SOLELY on power delivery is doing an injustice to everything else that made the M cars of past so special IMO.

I did not comment on the philosophical argument and agree that this engine has strayed away from the historical "power delivery". Instead, I commented on your assertion that the 11hp increase is negligible and that it "can not be felt", which is simply inaccurate.

Not trying to attack you, just that my response may have been misunderstood, as I was referring to your statement regarding performance as opposed to the philosophical change. However, I still believe too much weight is being placed solely on power delivery of these cars.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by MrCsquared

That was somewhat of an ignorant response, claiming I do not know the history of the power delivery. I am very aware actually, and do recognize the significant change that has taken place. However, to simply discredit this car based SOLELY on power delivery is doing an injustice to everything else that made the M cars of past so special IMO.

I did not comment on the philosophical argument and agree that this engine has strayed away from the historical "power delivery". Instead, I commented on your assertion that the 11hp increase is negligible and that it "can not be felt", which is simply inaccurate.

Not trying to attack you, just that my response may have been misunderstood, as I was referring to your statement regarding performance as opposed to the philosophical change. However, I still believe too much weight is being placed solely on power delivery of these cars.

To be not misunderstood ... the new M3/M4 is an really great M car and surely "the best M3 ever" and follows the M philosophy of "Rennsporttechnik in Straßenfahrzeugen" in many terms closer than all precessors ... but sadly this is no longer the case in terms of the M engine ... and the engine is simply "the heart of an M car" which carries the M of Motorsport in his Name.

[MrCsquared]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

To be not misunderstood ... the new M3/M4 is an really great M car and surely "the best M3 ever" and follows the M philosophy of "Rennsporttechnik in Straßenfahrzeugen" in many terms closer than all precessors ... but sadly this is no longer the case in terms of the M engine ... and the engine is simply "the heart of an M car" which carries the M of Motorsport in his Name.

Again, this is not what I initially commented on. I was simply stating that the performance increase is more significant than you had let on (11hp not being felt).

However, the above is very well said. I agree with what you said for the most part. I am in the camp where I am doing my best to accept the direction that the automotive industry has been moving. It doesn't do much to constantly resist change. Instead, I am embracing what the new cars and technology bring and will develop my opinions of its application once I drive the car myself. I think everyone would be miserable if we constantly referred to the way things USED to be done, and especially in the automotive industry, there will be inevitable change.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by bmwm5e60

No, what BMW is planning for the m4m3 csl is the installation of the w16 Veyron engine, and 6 wheel drive. Additional development with 16 turbos and 2476 hp.
I just googled it and wow!

I saw it too. it's not normal w16... it's modified one with extra 200hp on top of 2476

[Maddict3]

why would BMW release the new M3/M4 with the old engine? this is a stupid idea.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Maddict3

why would BMW release the new M3/M4 with the old engine? this is a stupid idea.

For 1000 reasons that have nothing to do with the age of the design, BMW would not do this. This thread is a pipe dream.

With that said, I'd be interested to see how many current, vocal S65 naysayers would purchase a F8X M3/M4 if the S65 were offered as a 5,000 dollar "optional" engine. I have no way of knowing the answer to this, but I would find it an amusing exercise. The S55 will be a great engine no doubt, but so many BMW buyers these days are obsessed with having that "fully loaded" package.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

For 1000 reasons that have nothing to do with the age of the design, BMW would not do this. This thread is a pipe dream.

Agreed ... but an nice and technical not impossible dream ... but clearly only an dream !

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

With that said, I'd be interested to see how many current, vocal S65 naysayers would purchase a F8X M3/M4 if the S65 were offered as a 5,000 dollar "optional" engine. I have no way of knowing the answer to this, but I would find it an amusing exercise. The S55 will be a great engine no doubt, but so many BMW buyers these days are obsessed with having that "fully loaded" package.

THIS !!!

Make €10K for an modified S65, the old M-DCT and an modified (Akra?) Exhaust ... and even than it would be the nicest and worthiest Option BMW M Individual could bring for the F8x. I think if they limit this option to 100-250 Units and timely for deliverly until the EU 6 regulations are binding, it would sell like crazy - I bet sold out on the first day of ordering !?

But I also bet, that an limited (65 Examples for M3 and for M4?) M3/M4 Edition 65 for €99K - including the S65, the old M-DCT, CCBs, special wheels, (maybe manuell seats?) with an relatively stripped out option package and painted in 3 different Frozen Colors - would sell like hot cake !!!

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

With that said, I'd be interested to see how many current, vocal S65 naysayers would purchase a F8X M3/M4 if the S65 were offered as a 5,000 dollar "optional" engine. I have no way of knowing the answer to this, but I would find it an amusing exercise. The S55 will be a great engine no doubt, but so many BMW buyers these days are obsessed with having that "fully loaded" package.

believe it or not, I think there are a lot of buyers who would pay double that for the S65. these people are well-represented among us enthusiasts here on the forum, but no doubt we would be a minority group to BMW.