[2013M3]

Mine still says ‘Full self Driving’.

Originally Posted by rjabend

I am not familiar with the 2018 but currently, FSD is no longer "Full Self Driving" and $12K for something that isn't is pretty expensive

[rjabend]

Saying & being are vastly different! I wonder what BETA means.

PS - "It may do the wrong thing at the worst time"

[BMWMN1971]

Teslas completely lack a luxurious interior but the car itself is amazing and the driving experience is fantastic. I haven’t pulled the trigger on one yet because I don’t need a new car or want to replace an existing at but will have a Tesla one day.

[BMW5and7]

rjabend is right. It’s a great feature but it is not TRULY FULL self driving “yet”. Once the “beta” is removed, and we are allowed to not touch the steering from time to time, then I’d accept the FSD label as being a true full self driving. In all cases, I would never ever want FSD even if it was for free. It is just way too much control for me… Autopilot (the free standard one) is sooooo good that I have to do NOTHING for 4 hours of driving straight and taking curves… that’s all I need. I would never even want the car to make U turns and do 90 degree city turns for me. It’s not even fun….

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

rjabend is right. It’s a great feature but it is not TRULY FULL self driving “yet”. Once the “beta” is removed, and we are allowed to not touch the steering from time to time, then I’d accept the FSD label as being a true full self driving. In all cases, I would never ever want FSD even if it was for free. It is just way too much control for me… Autopilot (the free standard one) is sooooo good that I have to do NOTHING for 4 hours of driving straight and taking curves… that’s all I need. I would never even want the car to make U turns and do 90 degree city turns for me. It’s not even fun….

I believe excessive regulatory oversight has somewhat limited Tesla FSD. I essentially have highway FSD with the X7, but I get so nervous in fairly close traffic at high speeds that I have to put my hands on the wheel. That might go away with time and more confidence, but I am not there yet!

[Patgilm]

I’ve had my Model S Plaid for over two years and while I love it, it is the biggest piece of shit car I’ve ever owned from a build quality standpoint. It’s been to the service center more than any car I’ve ever owned and every time I go I’m waiting 4-5 hours. I’ve had a loaner only one time. I was just there this past Tuesday for two more fixes and another 5 hours with no loaner.

[rjabend]

This is pretty scary, but one has to wonder what the driver was doing. The 1st URL is the recorded simulated video. The 2nd is the full article. In the full article, you can scroll through annotated steps in the video which is on Page 4 of the article.

https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.ne...80-5400-v4.mp4

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...rash-analysis/


Thoughts?

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

I’ve had my Model S Plaid for over two years and while I love it, it is the biggest piece of shit car I’ve ever owned from a build quality standpoint. It’s been to the service center more than any car I’ve ever owned and every time I go I’m waiting 4-5 hours. I’ve had a loaner only one time. I was just there this past Tuesday for two more fixes and another 5 hours with no loaner.

Yeah, service and car issues can sometimes ruin the experience even if it was a Rolls-Royce. I had a 2022 X7 and I hated it soooooo much for it's endless quality problems that I sold it and lost money on it, and switched back to an older model year. If I never had another X7 before that 2022, I would have hated the brand forever, but I know it was an "isolated" issue with the car, and to me likely the entire model year. Majority of Tesla owners by the way never see service for years and years. Mine hasn't been in service since last year and since it had 0-miles.

I think it's a different car, but people won't appreciate Tesla until they try one (just like me, I talked crap about the car on this forum, but as a car guy, I finally pulled the trigger and I can easily say that it is the best and most extreme fun car I ever owned in my life). This is only applicable for the S and X. I don't think the Model 3 or Y are great cars for a BMW or Mbenz people. Note: My Tesla Model S was a replacement of one of the nicest well equipped 160K MSRP Mercedes S-class, and I still love the Model S more.

The only sedan that I think I still want to see if I may like it better is the BMW M760 with the V12 or the B7. But I could not yet find THE ONE with the options I want. To me for any car I buy, it should have all the boxes checked and all options included otherwise I prefer to pass and wait until I find the one.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

Yeah, service and car issues can sometimes ruin the experience even if it was a Rolls-Royce. I had a 2022 X7 and I hated it soooooo much for it's endless quality problems that I sold it and lost money on it, and switched back to an older model year. If I never had another X7 before that 2022, I would have hated the brand forever, but I know it was an "isolated" issue with the car, and to me likely the entire model year. Majority of Tesla owners by the way never see service for years and years. Mine hasn't been in service since last year and since it had 0-miles.

I think it's a different car, but people won't appreciate Tesla until they try one (just like me, I talked crap about the car on this forum, but as a car guy, I finally pulled the trigger and I can easily say that it is the best and most extreme fun car I ever owned in my life). This is only applicable for the S and X. I don't think the Model 3 or Y are great cars for a BMW or Mbenz people. Note: My Tesla Model S was a replacement of one of the nicest well equipped 160K MSRP Mercedes S-class, and I still love the Model S more.

The only sedan that I think I still want to see if I may like it better is the BMW M760 with the V12 or the B7. But I could not yet find THE ONE with the options I want. To me for any car I buy, it should have all the boxes checked and all options included otherwise I prefer to pass and wait until I find the one.

The Model 3 and Y are built better than the S. Tesla isn’t like most manufacturers who focus on the higher end customers like a true luxury automaker. The amount of issues both mechanically and fit and finish on the S is embarrassing and I have never heard of some of these issues with other car makers. Heck there is a huge checklist on the Tesla forums for the Model S on what issues to look for when your car is ready for pickup if that tells you something. Also, whenever I go to service for some of my issues, the service advisor says my issues aren’t uncommon. Lastly, I would dump my car and get in another Plaid is Tesla wouldn’t have reduced the price $40k since I bought it. To get out of my car I would have to pony up $30k over my trade in to get out of it so I just have to suck it up for a while.

[tatoweb]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

The Model 3 and Y are built better than the S. Tesla isn’t like most manufacturers who focus on the higher end customers like a true luxury automaker. The amount of issues both mechanically and fit and finish on the S is embarrassing and I have never heard of some of these issues with other car makers. Heck there is a huge checklist on the Tesla forums for the Model S on what issues to look for when your car is ready for pickup if that tells you something. Also, whenever I go to service for some of my issues, the service advisor says my issues aren’t uncommon. Lastly, I would dump my car and get in another Plaid is Tesla wouldn’t have reduced the price $40k since I bought it. To get out of my car I would have to pony up $30k over my trade in to get out of it so I just have to suck it up for a while.

I’ve had a MYP, a MYLR and now a MSP. While the MSP feels more “luxurious” than a MY, in terms of fit and finish I see zero difference between the 3 of them.

The “list for pickup” you’re referring to is used by some people buying ANY tesla. Not just a MS.

My MSP has been flawless (knock on wood). I know it sucks to have a car full of issues but realistically, that can happen with any brand. Even though I don’t want to sell, I agree it sucks to be caught in the price reduction.

Have you tried to lemon it?.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

I’ve had a MYP, a MYLR and now a MSP. While the MSP feels more “luxurious” than a MY, in terms of fit and finish I see zero difference between the 3 of them.

The “list for pickup” you’re referring to is used by some people buying ANY tesla. Not just a MS.

My MSP has been flawless (knock on wood). I know it sucks to have a car full of issues but realistically, that can happen with any brand. Even though I don’t want to sell, I agree it sucks to be caught in the price reduction.

Have you tried to lemon it?.

I agree, that’s my experience too. They are all (3, Y, S, X) manufactured using the same principles, robotics, workers and same standards. The fact that either of them has superior/inferior quality compared to the other is just a myth that people kept posting online and convinced themselves and others that it’s true. Let’s not forget that the S and X owners are of a different demography, likely mostly car-people and tend to be more vocal as complainers than many of the 3 or Y owners. Just like the BMW and Mbenz brand… We (the BMW fans) tend to be more obsessed with our cars than someone who drives a Toyota or Honda, even when comparing a 4-series vs a Camry with similar price range.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

I’ve had a MYP, a MYLR and now a MSP. While the MSP feels more “luxurious” than a MY, in terms of fit and finish I see zero difference between the 3 of them.

The “list for pickup” you’re referring to is used by some people buying ANY tesla. Not just a MS.

My MSP has been flawless (knock on wood). I know it sucks to have a car full of issues but realistically, that can happen with any brand. Even though I don’t want to sell, I agree it sucks to be caught in the price reduction.

Have you tried to lemon it?.

Sorry, that’s Tesla speak. My car brand new needed a new door panel and the edge of the rear passenger door was scraped down to the metal. No other brand new Cari have ever owned had these types of issues for a new car, ever. This isn’t a normal to Tesla, the stuff I’ve seen on the forums the past two years of ownership isn’t even close to other automalers and it isn’t even close. Just look at how many pages the Model S refresh issues thread is and read some of the issues.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

I agree, that’s my experience too. They are all (3, Y, S, X) manufactured using the same principles, robotics, workers and same standards. The fact that either of them has superior/inferior quality compared to the other is just a myth that people kept posting online and convinced themselves and others that it’s true. Let’s not forget that the S and X owners are of a different demography, likely mostly car-people and tend to be more vocal as complainers than many of the 3 or Y owners. Just like the BMW and Mbenz brand… We (the BMW fans) tend to be more obsessed with our cars than someone who drives a Toyota or Honda, even when comparing a 4-series vs a Camry with similar price range.

Many prior owners of multiple models have said the refresh S is the worst quality of many Teslas they have owned. Maybe it’s anecdotal but the fit and finish issues aren’t even close to any automaker out there. I don’t even know how some cars make it through QC, no way BMW would let some of the stuff I’ve seen go through.


How long have you had your Plaid? If it is a newer model I’m sure it’s gotten better but I still see some ridiculous issues on fit and finish. Hell I had a Plaid X for a loaner that had ridiculous paint defects in a couple spots.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

Sorry, that’s Tesla speak. My car brand new needed a new door panel and the edge of the rear passenger door was scraped down to the metal. No other brand new Cari have ever owned had these types of issues for a new car, ever. This isn’t a normal to Tesla, the stuff I’ve seen on the forums the past two years of ownership isn’t even close to other automalers and it isn’t even close. Just look at how many pages the Model S refresh issues thread is and read some of the issues.

Just curious if you identified those flaws or if your dealer did before you picked it up. Those problems don't sound like something that could be missed at the factory or at some point on the way to the dealer but correct me if I am wrong.

[stavstavcc]

Originally Posted by rjabend

This is pretty scary, but one has to wonder what the driver was doing. The 1st URL is the recorded simulated video. The 2nd is the full article. In the full article, you can scroll through annotated steps in the video which is on Page 4 of the article.

https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.ne...80-5400-v4.mp4

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...rash-analysis/


Thoughts?

Note that my Model Y complains all the time about my hands not being on the steering wheel while in fact they are there! That’s because it doesn’t really sense the hands on the steering wheel but rather force applied to the steering wheel.

[overcooked]

IMO FSD is just an IQ tax Elon charged to his fanboys.
Plus Teslas are like soft shell crabs and would cost a ton to fix for minor incidents. My wife had a head on collision in her XC90 with a Model Y. The XC90 only had a hairline crack behind front license plate and thus required no repairs. The Model Y lost its front face and cost 20K to repair. Mind you it’s a low speed parking lot accident.

[Patgilm]

Originally Posted by rjabend

Just curious if you identified those flaws or if your dealer did before you picked it up. Those problems don't sound like something that could be missed at the factory or at some point on the way to the dealer but correct me if I am wrong.

The dealer identified the door scrape when we did a walk around and I needed a car since I just sold my M340 so I agreed to let them touch it up. They said it looked like someone took the door off and dragged it across the ground. Also when I ended up washing the car and cleaning the door jambs months later I noticed that under the door there were multiple dents underneath as if someone took a hammer to it.

The interior door panel I noticed on my drive home and I called to see if I could return the car and they told me it was too late even though I only drove it 30 miles. It took a month to get a new door panel installed and another two months to get the carbon fiber trim and window seal replaced. Not good for a brand new car to drive three months with a broken/unfinished door panel. The tech said they installed a broken door panel and should never have installed it.

I love my car, I’ve put 40k miles on it in two years and would buy another one if I had to replace this one. The powertrain is incredible and makes driving a ICE car seem outdated but the number of issues I’ve had have been frustrating. I’ve had a door panel replaced, door hinge replaced, new yoke for peeling, side camera replaced, trunk latch replaced, a/c compressor and super manifold replaced and two door handles adjusted with one not working where at one point I had to climb in through the passenger side to get in the drivers seat.

Also forgot the latest issue that I went to the service center for was the passenger side restraint system fault in which they replaced some harness. Another not uncommon issue.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

The dealer identified the door scrape when we did a walk around and I needed a car since I just sold my M340 so I agreed to let them touch it up. They said it looked like someone took the door off and dragged it across the ground. Also when I ended up washing the car and cleaning the door jambs months later I noticed that under the door there were multiple dents underneath as if someone took a hammer to it.

The interior door panel I noticed on my drive home and I called to see if I could return the car and they told me it was too late even though I only drove it 30 miles. It took a month to get a new door panel installed and another two months to get the carbon fiber trim and window seal replaced. Not good for a brand new car to drive three months with a broken/unfinished door panel. The tech said they installed a broken door panel and should never have installed it.

I love my car, I’ve put 40k miles on it in two years and would buy another one if I had to replace this one. The powertrain is incredible and makes driving a ICE car seem outdated but the number of issues I’ve had have been frustrating. I’ve had a door panel replaced, door hinge replaced, new yoke for peeling, side camera replaced, trunk latch replaced, a/c compressor and super manifold replaced and two door handles adjusted with one not working where at one point I had to climb in through the passenger side to get in the drivers seat.

Also forgot the latest issue that I went to the service center for was the passenger side restraint system fault in which they replaced some harness. Another not uncommon issue.

I can only say that I am shocked. You are beyond tolerant and I wish you the best from this point on!

[omnid00d]

Originally Posted by Patgilm

I love my car, I’ve put 40k miles on it in two years and would buy another one if I had to replace this one. The powertrain is incredible and makes driving a ICE car seem outdated but the number of issues I’ve had have been frustrating.

I wouldn't have been able to tolerate what you tolerated. My wife would have forced me to sell the car.

That said, I have to admit that I still keep eyeing a model X or R1S when I'm driving my X7. Even that 1 EV9 I saw on the road. As much as I enjoy my CPO M50i, the ICE part does irk me TBH but during my search, there's still too much of a give/take in the EV market. If it isn't 1 thing, it's another. I keep reading that Genesis is building an GV90 EV. Maybe an EV X7 is coming too.

[blake6551]

I've owned an M3P, X and S. UI is good, charging convenience is awesome for commuting, but outside that I don't miss anything about them. Build quality was horrendous on all 3, ride is unrefined at each price point and the service nowadays is awful compared to pre-2018.

I had an IX as well, exceeded EPA range consistently and the ride was amazing. Once everyone fully adopts NACS, I see no reason to buy a Tesla.

[BlkGS]

I looked at teslas and I couldn't get past how poorly built and cheap they looked. Every paycheck to paycheck "baller" around here has one because they're cheap. They act like the model 3 or y is some sort of luxury car, despite being Kia money.

Obviously some people love them. Some people are into the furries lifestyle too, good for them, weirdos all over the place. I can get why people buy the Y, in the low 40s you're getting an appliance that reduces your monthly fueling (in theory) and a lot of states give you absurd perks like no sales tax, etc. They have a HUGE pricing advantage over the legacy automakers too. They're just so cheap and so ugly and have terrible resale value.

I don't really love the EV driving experience. They're quick, sure, but I don't like the way they pull harder lower down, and frankly, they bore me. I don't do a long commute, and so I like a car that excites me to drive. I want some noise and drama and to feel a little enjoyment when I drive. I suppose if I commuted an hour and a half each way or something I'd just want something cheap to commute in, but I don't so I want something more out of life, lol.

They remind me of the old Neon SRT4. They're cheap, and fast, but they're also total garbage. The SRT4 at least looked cool.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I looked at teslas and I couldn't get past how poorly built and cheap they looked. Every paycheck to paycheck "baller" around here has one because they're cheap. They act like the model 3 or y is some sort of luxury car, despite being Kia money.

Obviously some people love them. Some people are into the furries lifestyle too, good for them, weirdos all over the place. I can get why people buy the Y, in the low 40s you're getting an appliance that reduces your monthly fueling (in theory) and a lot of states give you absurd perks like no sales tax, etc. They have a HUGE pricing advantage over the legacy automakers too. They're just so cheap and so ugly and have terrible resale value.

I don't really love the EV driving experience. They're quick, sure, but I don't like the way they pull harder lower down, and frankly, they bore me. I don't do a long commute, and so I like a car that excites me to drive. I want some noise and drama and to feel a little enjoyment when I drive. I suppose if I commuted an hour and a half each way or something I'd just want something cheap to commute in, but I don't so I want something more out of life, lol.

They remind me of the old Neon SRT4. They're cheap, and fast, but they're also total garbage. The SRT4 at least looked cool.

I am definitely not a Tesla fan, but we all have and are entitled to our opinions and needs. As a result, I respect the preferences of those who are Tesla fans.