M4 or used 911 turbo ?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Genuine question but are your comments specifically geared towards the 997tt? I ask because, as far as I know, it's incredibly easy to drive on the track. The AWD 997s as a whole were praised for their poise, solidity, and easy of driving at the limit - even compared to the 996, but worlds better than the aircooled versions. I have limited 911 seat time, so I'm going off wide ranging feedback here.

Surprised by a lot of your other comments as well, which made me ask again if you were speaking to the tt in particular.

But on technology - yes, definitely. The f80, though an f30 at heart, is in essence a 2014 model while the 997 platform is in essence a 2004 model at heart. There's a solid 9 years separating the two in terms of technology and build, or in the f30's case more like 7-8 years. Huge difference. One of my additional reasons for choosing the f80 m3.

Yes I did own and track one.

It's just old, rough around the edges compared to modern cars or my e92, and is definitely less forgiving on the track than my m3, and IMO the next m3.

It's a monster of a motor, but the 997tt has a very soft suspension and can be unstable under braking. It also will snap oversteer on you if you lift in a corner.

It's very capable, but the suspension tuning leaves a lot to he desired.

There is no chance id take one over an f8x m3

It also only lapped 1.5 secs faster than an e92 in this test at 4200' elevation. IMO the f8x will be the faster car. It's got 8 years more development , so it should be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2008-bmw-m3-page-4-1

[JoeFromPA]

Nice article, thanks! Makes me consider getting an e90 m3 for a year

[speed12sil]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I think you're romanticizing the car a bit too much. I owned a 997 and it was great for its day, but I think people get too caught up in the nostalgia of the Mezger block.

Huge difference between a base 997 and a 997 TT. The suspension part can be sorted for not too much money.

I won't comment on the Mezger block, because either you get it and know why it's so highly regarded(not simply irrational fan support), or you don't.

[YellowMellow]

My wife currently owns '11 M3/E93 and I've owned several 997 variants in the past, the latest is '11 C4S. We also own an Audi R8. Our favorite is the C4S. Followed by the R8. The M3 is nice but it's weigh and handling is really good as a tourer.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by speed12sil

Huge difference between a base 997 and a 997 TT. The suspension part can be sorted for not too much money.

I won't comment on the Mezger block, because either you get it and know why it's so highly regarded(not simply irrational fan support), or you don't.

oh, I get it. it is no doubt a great motor, but I see people toss around the "Mezger" block all the time around here as if they didn't hear of its name from some other shmoe on this forum.

also, I agree that the Carrera S I had was no turbo, but many say the suspension is much better sorted and more raw than the turbo's, and I still found it less than impressive (even after getting a more track-focused alignment from Fall Line Racing / Thalmann's). not to mention the quality of the interior build wasn't all that great, but everyone who hasn't owned one assumes it was without fault. mine developed rattles/squeeks within 3k miles and the plastic coated HVAC buttons started to peel (a widespread problem endemic to Porsches of that generation).

[LSM]

Originally Posted by Jopa201

So I sold my 2010 m3 .. And I'm now debating between the upcoming m4 Or a used 2007 911 turbo.

2 questions

What would you do ?

For those that maybe had 911 turbo are the maintenance cost outrageous! I have read that their ceramic brakes are like 10k to replace.

I had 3 diff 997TT....I would go with that. As to maintenance costs I only ever had oil changes. These cars are pretty bullet proof. Then again I only owned them new to at most 10k miles.....I never had any issues and theyre super easy to mod to 600HP which feels so ridiculously fast, spins all 4 wheels...

[LSM]

Originally Posted by speed12sil

Huge difference between a base 997 and a 997 TT. The suspension part can be sorted for not too much money.

I won't comment on the Mezger block, because either you get it and know why it's so highly regarded(not simply irrational fan support), or you don't.

+1 huge difference!!

[Kadema]

Originally Posted by YellowMellow

My wife currently owns '11 M3/E91 and I've owned several 997 variants in the past, the latest is '11 C4S. We also own an Audi R8. Our favorite is the C4S. Followed by the R8. The M3 is nice but it's weigh and handling is really good as a tourer.

There is no e91 M3...

[A418t81]

Why not both?

The 911 gives you an experience that can't be replicated in a front engine platform. The car is so lively and eager to dance with you through the corners. The power is nice on mine, about 520 whp...but its not nearly as fast as my GT-R was. That will be remedied with bigger turbos shortly.

[mithiral67]

Two things you learn about a 911 turbo, if you buy one, everyone you know will ask you about it. If you sell it, everyone you know will ask you about it. And being I made the switch from the 911 to a 335is, I had a lot of explaining to do. So here is a write up I did back when I sold it to explain myself, so forgive the tense.

It sums of my experience from going from a 3 time 3 serious owner to a 07 997tt to a 335is. The 335is is to get me by until a new m4 if I dont get promoted in a couple years or a 991 if I make partner at my firm. I will always buy new or slighlty used fmo now on out.


Honestly, for the price, if the car had say 15k miles, was more button down, and had a newer interior, the costs would have been justified.


The short answer, the age of the car and the effects of that were too much to overcome the awesomeness of the car.

The long answer is below.

It was a series of events. I have always been a fan of driving one car all the time, not having a daily driver and then a separate fun car. I would rather put all the funds towards one. A 3 series has filled that roll for me well as I bought three new ones in a row. As my income went up a bit in 9 years while essentially keeping the same car costs, I thought it time to treat myself. So I went with a used 07 911 with 37k miles and dumped 10k of mods into it and was left with a very fast car that could hold its own against virtually anything I would run into on the road. And I loved the car, still do, was a dream of mine for 25 years.

However, after buying the car I some what unexpectedly moved and my commute went up 5 times and the idea of putting 15-18k miles a year on the 911 makes costs go up and leave me with a 100,000 mile 911 turbo after 3-4 years, which likely wouldn’t sell well.

So I decided to get a winter/daily driver and test drove a comparatively inexpensive 09 mini that was fun as heck and much more civilized compared to the roughness of the 911 (600hp boxer engines aren't the smoothest). It would be prefect for winter and daily drive. But the mini was almost too good. It had 10k more miles than my 911 and was still rock solid and button down. Where the 911, with the striped down body and the stiff suspensions creaked and rattled over most bumps. It wasn’t excessive, just the effect of it being a 5 year old car with impressive handling with 45k miles on it.

That whole process put doubt in my decision to get the car and I started focusing more on the things about the car that bothered me (had been ignoring them). I am guessing these are what you are wondering about in order of importance to me.

• Used car vs. new. I just love new cars that only I have ever owned. The car had the general wear and tear of a used car, but honestly, the 40k mile 335i I traded in was in better shape than the 911 from the paint to the interior (took me about 5 months to find this one).
• Rattles – see above, driving the 5 hours home after buying the 335is in Ohio was amazing. The 911 is very much like a bmw in its ability to dampen impacts, but just to a much firmer level. That being said, after so many miles of that stiffer ride, interior parts have started to make some noise. It’s so nice being back in a car that makes no creaks or rattles even over the roughest roads.
• Dated interior – Porsche is always slow to update things and it shows on the 997. They did upgrade the center console in 09, but even the 2012 look identical on the inside as my 07 other than that center console. A lot of people commented on how old the interior looked compare to most cars. I actually went and looked at some pictures of 997s a week ago with a little sadness for selling it and as soon as I saw the interior pictures I stopped looking. I again was happy I went back to a newer car.
• Power – When I had it tuned, the power jumped from 480 to 600hp and it was more fun. For me, at a certain point, adding more power to a car doesn’t translate to a faster car on the streets because you don’t have the space or speed limits to let the higher power shine. So when I went from 300 to 420 on my 335i, it was like night and day for daily driving. But on the 911, it felt more like the difference between cobb stage 1 and stage 2, because the added power only shined in 3rd gear and up. And if I was doing that, I was double any speed limit by me (55mph). I know the faster you go the more impact the higher hp has as friction and gearing take more of an effect. But I don’t track my cars and rarely break 100mph, so the benefit of the 911 starts getting lost. I knew I could be content with 500ish hp every day of the week. And honestly, how much do I even use that.
• Clutch – it was assisted and was pretty bad. You couldn’t launch the car well unless you dumped it at very high rpms. Was very annoying, never liked it. For $4-6k you can remove the assist, but more costs to an already expensive car. I am shocked at how bad that was being back in a bmw.
• AWD – yes it was better than RWD in a straight line and dry, but nothing like I expected. I could still break it loss with easy, but less predictable. Also the AWD did loss some fun from a rwd. In the end though, it didn’t feel like it had the benefits to out weigh the extra weight and more stuff that could break. And nothing is more terrifying than taking a corner and have all four tires break loss. Instead of counter steering like losing traction in a RWD car, you just get sideways with a puckered ass and flashes of your insurance costs going up.
• Cost – I couldn’t justify the 911 and its 60% more costs a month to own compared to the 2011 bmw 335is (850 miles on it, never sold to a customer at $12k under invoice). So, for the cash I am going to get off selling the mods from the 911 turbo, I will push the 335is as best I can to get it back to something close to the stock 911 and pocket the monthly savings. (I actually got within about 50 hp of the 911 with a power band that pulled to 7k rpms vs the 911 having power drop after 5,500) And I won’t have to stress about something breaking on a $140k car.

There are a lot of things about it that were amazing, like the attention. The fact that every person from age 4-84 loved the car. I would drive by families and hear kids that couldn’t even name 5 car makes turn to their parents and say that liked my car or even yell out that the loved my car. Folks would pull up to me on the highway and give me the thumbs up. It was an attention whore.

All that being said, I am so happy with the 335is. After about 15 seconds of driving, it felt like I had come home. BMWs are a very tamed version of the 911 and despite pretending I am a racecar driver, I prefer the softer sports coupe vs. a hard car super/sports car.

Here's my write up on the 911 comparing all my bmws to the 911, but only after 400 miles.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694095

Here's my dyno results from the tune. You can see the power by 50 whop after 5k rpms

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740463

Here's a write up on my 335is
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847231

Cheers,
James

[pcbrs]

Thank you for the great replies. Helped me make my decision.

[phrozen06]

m4

[Installsplus]

Thanks for that James I am also in the same situation and regretting selling my 2003 M3...But if you guys knew what i got for it you would also let it go. I have looked at a couple 2007 911tt and I was so disappointed they where beaten up,paint work,dents,seats where all cracked and they where asking 80gs freaking NUTS! and good luck trying to find a mint 2007-08. Here in Canada we have a shortage of 911's and if there is one for sale its junk and the color is wrong. So tired of wasting gas driving around looking for a used car that people never looked after. I have never been so confused!! I think the M4 would be the ideal car for me and practical.This is a great thread which really helped Thanks

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by Installsplus

Thanks for that James I am also in the same situation and regretting selling my 2003 M3...But if you guys knew what i got for it you would also let it go. I have looked at a couple 2007 911tt and I was so disappointed they where beaten up,paint work,dents,seats where all cracked and they where asking 80gs freaking NUTS! and good luck trying to find a mint 2007-08. Here in Canada we have a shortage of 911's and if there is one for sale its junk and the color is wrong. So tired of wasting gas driving around looking for a used car that people never looked after. I have never been so confused!! I think the M4 would be the ideal car for me and practical.This is a great thread which really helped Thanks

Yea, the prices on the used 997tt dont make sense any more. At $80k, you can pick up a new stingray or m3 and likely have a faster all around car than the TT with a warranty and modern amenities. (my TT had no aux or usb input, ugh, it was annoying to spend $600 so I can play music from my phone).

[Ioannis]

Originally Posted by Jopa201

So I sold my 2010 m3 .. And I'm now debating between the upcoming m4 Or a used 2007 911 turbo.

2 questions

What would you do ?

For those that maybe had 911 turbo are the maintenance cost outrageous! I have read that their ceramic brakes are like 10k to replace.

Indeed expensive maintain for the Porche and dont forget its 7 years old vehicle

[YellowMellow]

Originally Posted by Kadema

There is no e91 M3...

Typo... meant M3/E93.

A tuned 997.1TT will hit < 3.0 sec.
The new M3/M4 appear to be really nice and I wouldn't mind one as daily driver.
However IMO, your comparing a sports car versus a sporty car/coupe.
Our M3 vert is nice but weighs a lot (3,800 lbs) and you can feel it in every corner but its fine for around town, cruising, etc

If its your only car, I'd probably go with the M4 as it probably has better useable backseats. The seats in 911 isn't that bad for around town but not for long trips

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by YellowMellow

Typo... meant M3/E93.

A tuned 997.1TT will hit < 3.0 sec.
The new M3/M4 appear to be really nice and I wouldn't mind one as daily driver.
However IMO, your comparing a sports car versus a sporty car/coupe.
Our M3 vert is nice but weighs a lot (3,800 lbs) and you can feel it in every corner but its fine for around town, cruising, etc

If its your only car, I'd probably go with the M4 as it probably has better useable backseats. The seats in 911 isn't that bad for around town but not for long trips

Ha, you have to be sub 5'6" to get in the back seat and really, you should be saying "seat" as its really just two boat cushions bolted vertical and horizontal.

[YellowMellow]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

Ha, you have to be sub 5'6" to get in the back seat and really, you should be saying "seat" as its really just two boat cushions bolted vertical and horizontal.

Very true! I'm too tall to fit in the back but I guess in an emergency you can fit someone taller than 5'6"

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by YellowMellow

Very true! I'm too tall to fit in the back but I guess in an emergency you can fit someone taller than 5'6"

Ha, you can, but they better be prepared to get to second base with the back of the driver/passenger seats, cause its gets intimate

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Jopa201

So I sold my 2010 m3 .. And I'm now debating between the upcoming m4 Or a used 2007 911 turbo.

2 questions

What would you do ?

For those that maybe had 911 turbo are the maintenance cost outrageous! I have read that their ceramic brakes are like 10k to replace.

One of my sons finally, finally traded his original dream car (a 2001 996 triple black Cabrio) for a 2012 Carrera 4 GTS Cabrio (6-speed), also in triple black, with around 5k miles. The GTS 911s are arguably the pinnacle of normally aspirated street Carreras, and they all come with practically everything as standard equipment, meaning all the alphabet soup including PASM, Sport Chrono, LOL, ROFL, etc.

Overall straight-line performance of a "normal" RWD GTS would be fairly close to an M4, but out on the back roads, the 911 will speak to you in ways the M4 probably won't manage, plus the terrific brakes, of course. Then there's also the CPO warranty if you buy one from a dealer.

His GTS was listed at $90K by the dealer, and net of the 996 Cabrio, $66k. I'm guessing that the reason he in theory got $24K for his 996 (very high) was that the 2012 car was a 6-speed, and today everybody (except perhaps me and thee) wants a PDK.

I'd guess that a more "normal" 6-speed RWD GTS wouldn't be much more than that $66K after the back-and-forth negotiations, so it would be a valid option for you, money-wise.

Just a thought.

Bruce

[///M Power-Belgium]

In a few words....
The 911/Turbo and that all day long,no matter the $$$$$ !

[328skidpad]

Being a member for over 10 years I am now somewhat hiding. I drove a boxter S 6mt and was surprised by the "experience" as compared to the m4 6mt I drove a few day earlier.

my white/saddle 2008 335 6mt 44K miles is up for sale.

I was again reminded why people dont compare a 4 seater to a 2 seater as I bought a new 15 Boxter gts 6mt...(have owned every 3 series and toyota mr2 and honda crx 90's

Drive one for 10-15 miles and you will enter the dark side of engineering boxter S included.
Hope to trade in my odyssey minivan for a x5 to still enjoy the forums..

FYI go drive a new 911 they feel vastly refined but the cabin is huge meaning wide