[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Ace6180G07

Lol

[Mail4loys]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

...
I will stick with my original opinion, and quoting from MystroX5 , "The M60i is no more “M” than the M50i.".
If you've been told that there are major* changes on the " M dynamics packages" between the M50i vs M60i, you probably have been misled. Both of them are equally close "or far away" from being an M... They are both a BMW M-Performance vehicles....

This ^^

[joeyjoejoejr]

Originally Posted by srosenj

Nice try, but you are 100% incorrect. BMW had a public release on this engine...full M engine, same one will be used in other full M vehicles. They took nothing out of it for use in the X7 M60i. Don't be a know it all, when you don't know it all.

You bought a Tesla Plaid…okay…kinda coming together a bit.🙄

they did take at least one thing out and it looks to be about 100hp or more.

Do you consider the Mercedes S580 Amg-line an AMG-lite? It’s got an AMG developed V8.

This is just really decent marketing so M doesn’t lose face for not having their own specific engines anymore.

If you wanted the M V8 and to make sure you had the top of the line spec you should’ve gone with the XB7. It has the new S68 with Alpina upgrades. I had the F01 B7. An Alpina is nicer than anything M puts out these days.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr

You bought a Tesla Plaid…okay…kinda coming together a bit!��

they did take at least one thing out and it looks to be about 100hp or more.

Do you consider the Mercedes S580 Amg-line an AMG-lite? It’s got an AMG developed V8.

This is just really decent marketing so M doesn’t lose face for not having their own specific engines anymore.

If you wanted the M V8 and to make sure you had the top of the line spec you should’ve gone with the XB7. It has the new S68 with Alpina upgrades. I had the F01 B7. An Alpina is nicer than anything M puts out these days.

This ...

[Saejin]

Well, this has been fun. Figured since I did post up a few comments this topic does interest me, but the thread has probably gone too far off the rails now to provide any relevance to the greater forum besides what has already been discussed. Nevertheless here I go.

First, my take on the M60i:
- not a true M car
- has a great engine with the S68, although de-tuned or M-tuned or whatever
- the S68 when used in a true M car like the XM will produce much more power and will probably have additional parts swapped out to handle higher boost pressures, revs, heat, etc
- M designation as it pertains to the X7 M60i is mostly cosmetic, but does include some performance goodies such as sport diff, IAS, DHP, S68 base engine, exhaust, etc that you can't get on the 40i anymore...oh yeah, lots on M badging too


First, I agree with the OP on some points below:
- M60i is not just cosmetic only
- the M60i will probably be the only X7 given the M-lite treatment, as there will be no X7M and I don't see alot of the other M bits coming back to the 40i
- S68 is from the M division of BMW and tuned or de-tuned by them...you could say it was M tuned, but I really think of it as the base S68 motor...M division will do much more to it in order to bump up the power


Now, how did we digress on this thread
Really feel this revolves around the engine, S68. Now, there was some lack of acknowledgement from responders that the S68 engine was in the X7 M60i. One response in particular was hard to follow on my first read, but looks like after I read it again or maybe some edits were made that it became clearer. Bottom line is the M60i has an S68 motor built by the M division which will be tuned and used in the XM and upcoming LCI X5M and X6M and of course other M vehicles.

The M50i on the other hand has an N63 engine not built by the M division and the S63 is the motor that goes into the X5M and X6M currently.

So if you're really into BMWs you probably follow their motor designations. Typically in the M-lite cars, those motors have different designations than what's in an M car like N63 versus S63 and B58 versus S58 and so forth. Now you could say the M division starts with the B58, makes a ton of changes and then ends up with an S58...think there's more to it though. So, taking it further, if the M division developed the S68 motor, they would then add more to it to get it ready to drop into an X5M, but at least the S68 motor originated from the M division in the first place.

Think what the OP was trying to say was the M60i versions of the LCI X7, X6, and X5 will have the S68 designated motor developed by the M division and used in true M cars. Now, he may have gone a bit over by saying the X7M60i is a stealth X7M, but nonetheless, it's closer to an M car than say an M50i is when it comes to the motor lineage.


So, not sure why I'm posting this other than to just eat up some time while I wait for something.

None of us here that I know of are BMW engineers, but many of us follow BMW pretty well and of course given the money we spend on these cars are dedicated to the brand, somewhat, for now at least. No reason to jump on each others keyboards for some misunderstanding or lack of acknowledgement from post to post.

Good luck out there when doing 0-60 in 4.5 seconds to the next red light. Puts a smile on my face every time.

[srosenj]

I'm not a new member, but if I was I would certainly know who the DB is. I don't live on these forums... it's been a while and the site has changed its security provisions over time. My account had to be re-set due to inactivity. But, thanks for making uneducated assumptions.

I know the whole M story. Don't need an education. Have followed these cars in the past before graduating onto other vehicles. I know the M60i is not a "full" M. That was the point of the post. The engine is a proper M engine though, and if you want to debate that you are debating with yourself and losing credibility, as BMW will tell you otherwise, just like they already told the world and automotive community. I never said that the engine is not or cannot be tuned to other vehicles. And, M competition is a different story. I'd argue that line captures the original M spirit best these days. To be honest, with the hp ratings becoming less important (due to EV hp performance), all M cars are kind of blurring.

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

SMH.. Well, we a got a lot of newbie’s with such attitude when others try to correct them. Am goin to say it, thinking that a 520hp is a FULL M the engine is a dump/stupid argument (did you even see what numbers the S68 core delivers on full M cars? Of course u don’t. Go and check the S68 on the XM or XB7 which is the full M SUV). Accept the facts and try to appreciate all the info being shared with u than trying to underestimate info others are trying to share with u. Ur attitude in ur last post and the fact ur account showed up out of nowhere while admitting u r a former member tells me u have been blocked/banned in the past for behavioral reasons. U’ve got to learn than when u post something, people are here to freely share what they know which u should appreciate even when it is the opposite of what u thought the case is. I don’t think you understand the difference between an engine with the M engines core vs the same engine core that goes in the M vehicles. The vehicle that got the full tuned S68 engine is the XM. Now go ahead and try challenge the power and spec’s difference. BMW language: “ The X7 M60i is an M Performance model and not a full M model, ..//.. The 523 horsepower of the S68 version used in the X7 M60i is respectable, but powerful versions are on the way, considering the upcoming XM performance hybrid boasts total combined output equivalent to 750hp "644*" drivetrain”. How do you stand behind you argument that “ they took nothing out of it for use in the X7 M60i” when the same S68 core exist on another 2023 MY full M vehicle with nearly 20% more power in the XM? That’s up to you to pick your brain around it.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Saejin

..//..
- the S68 when used in a true M car like the XM will produce much more power and will probably have additional parts swapped out to handle higher boost pressures, revs, heat, etc
..//..
- S68 is from the M division of BMW and tuned or de-tuned by them...you could say it was M tuned, but I really think of it as the base S68 motor...M division will do much more to it in order to bump up the power
..//..
He “OP” may have gone a bit over by saying the X7M60i is a stealth X7M.

I agree with the statements above. Basically I said the same but in a different way. What I also would like to add is that the reason that BMW de-tuned an actial M engine on an M Performance car is mainly driven by two factors:
1. fun and marketing reasons (its gives character and can attract buyers who may wrongly assume it is a true M engine tuned as it would in an M vehicle). This “de-tuned” S68 engine will also make it’s way to other M-Performance vehicles, while the full M vehicles will continue to get the fully spec’d and tuned varian of that engine core.
2. It is widely known that BMW is not going to focus too much on combustion engine developments, hence, it makes sense to use one engine core going forward for both, M-Performance and M-vehicles, which will be cheaper especially with the economy of scale, with the understanding that the full M vehicles will get a tuned S68 engine variant with several internal parts and component designed up to the M spec’s that the de-tuned one is not getting. What benefits do we (the consumer) get out of it? As of right now, nothing really other than the mental pleasure of knowing that is was the M division of BMW that designed the engine core now… we’re still getting the same hp and “hopefully**” same reliability we used to get in the N63 with it’s 3rd technical upgrade on the 19-22 X7s. Hence, from a performance prospective, we can’t conclude in anyway or fashion that our vehicle is closer to a full M vehicle (again, from a performance prospective). If there was going to be an true X7-M, it‘s performance would be on a completely different level.

[Saejin]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

...

1. fun and marketing reasons (its gives character and can attract buyers who may wrongly assume it is a true M engine tuned as it would in an M vehicle). This “de-tuned” S68 engine will also make it’s way to other M-Performance vehicles, while the full M vehicles will continue to get the fully spec’d and tuned varian of that engine core.

Don't think this was a reason and don't think anyone is going to wrongly assume the M60i has a true M engine given the material and press releases I've seen. At the most, it would be great if they could convey the idea that their performance oriented M division engineered the engine in the new M60i version of the X7. And even then, unless they are a BMW enthusiast they probably don't care.

I would think between your previous iX and now your two X7 M50i's, you'd understand that some M60i buyers are pretty excited the motor in their car was designed and engineered by an M division team.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Saejin

Don't think this was a reason and don't think anyone is going to wrongly assume the M60i has a true M engine given the material and press releases I've seen. At the most, it would be great if they could convey the idea that their performance oriented M division engineered the engine in the new M60i version of the X7. And even then, unless they are a BMW enthusiast they probably don't care.

I would think between your previous iX and now your two X7 M50i's, you'd understand that some M60i buyers are pretty excited the motor in their car was designed and engineered by an M division team.

Yeah, I see your point. My iX was probably the worst vehicle I ever owned, lol, which is why it only lasted a few months (but admittedly, the market was good and spiking so I thought I'd let it go too for a good trade in offer at that time). I like my M50i because of it's true sporty feeling while also being a comfortable family SUV. To your point, I would certainly be somewhat excited if my engine was engineered by the M division team, but honestly, my feelings would only be limited to "excitement" and "mental happiness" however it will not lead to me thinking that it has the true M characteristics from a performance prospective or close to that as the XM or XB7. I had the chance to drive the XB7 for about 6 weeks (didn't own it or rent it, but had it in my possession for whatever personal reasons) which made me appreciate a fully tuned M engine to its full M specs, and I also drove the new X7 with its S68 engine in the LCI, and certainly since the HP is the same as the 50i, I didn't feel any difference from a performance prospective between the 50i vs 60i. I did however feel a true level of performance upgrade with the XB7 and I won't blame anyone for investing that much for the XB7. I am certain that the XM driving experience will be mind-blowing...

[PinkNinja400Guy]

BMW has stupid naming with M. Or perhaps it's intentionally misleading rather than stupid. Still stupid from a customer standpoint.

Honda:
- normal Civic
- Civic Si (Sport Injected)
- Civic Type R (race)

Ford:
- normal Focus/Fiesta
- Focus/Fiesta ST (sport)
- Focus/Fiesta RS (race)

Audi:
- A6 (normal)
- S6 (sport)
- RS6 (race)

Whereas with BMW it's (same for all their cars including X7, using the 5er as an example):
- 540 (normal)
- 540 M-sport (same as normal, but looks better)
- M550 (sport)
- M5 (race)

They dilute the M a lot. The names should really be:
- 540 (normal)
- 540 (normal, but looks better)
- m550 (lowercase - sport)
- M5 (race)

The X7 "M50" and "M60" are in that third category - "m". Nothing like an actual M car.
A lot of the suspension/chassis tech (and now the engine) is shared, but - as 10 other people have already explained here - m and M vehicles are extremely different despite those commonalities.

Mercedes does similar things with AMG. You can get an "AMG-line" appearance package on the base model non-sporty cars. Honda/Ford/VAG do the naming right.

Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr

My ’genius’ told me my new 760i was built on the same platform as the new Rolls Royce Ghost

It's the opposite. The Ghost used the 7 series platform as a base.

[Saejin]

Gotta give an honorable mention to Porsche

As an example because I'm looking to get one...maybe...Cayman

Cayman
Cayman T
Cayman S
Cayman GTS
Cayman GT4
Cayman GT4RS

I'm pretty much sticking to the S and GTS versions. Pretty simple...it's either go fast or go faster or go really freaking faster

And I'm by no means a Porsche gear head, so if I got the above wrong please let me know. Just know what I've been shopping for in the Cayman, Macan, and Cayenne lines. Don't have the deep pockets to step into Turbo or Turbo S territory on the SUVs and 911's.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

As an owner of a few AMG’s over the past, I was disappointed when Merc started the AMG 43 designation. When they started bleeding the line so closely with marketing language, I stopped buying AMG’s and went over to Porsche and never looked back as the 911 turbo brings daily smiles. If I were to buy a sedan, I would definitely want an M5. I had one years ago and once you own the real deal M car, you’ll never make the mistake of believing a M550 or other M ‘lite’ look like is in the same league. Boy, that car was a blast. Don’t get me wrong though, the M550 was great car as well but you can easily tell the difference when driving them. For us enthusiasts, it’s a hobby and taken a little serious as someone would with any hobby they love. I can absolutely relate with a some of the passionate comments above. Let’s just be happy we can afford these awesome machines.

Anyways, my biggest concern with the M60i is reliability vs. the M50i. It would seem to me the M60i would be less reliable over time thanks to the 48v system. The TTV8 runs very hot compared to the 40i and 48 volt batteries do not like excessive heat. Has this topic been brought up and is the hybrid system a cause of concern? I did like the 48V in my previous X7 40i as it was much better at stop ‘n go. Does the M50i allow you to coast or is that a hybrid deal only?

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by Saejin

Gotta give an honorable mention to Porsche

As an example because I'm looking to get one...maybe...Cayman

Cayman
Cayman T
Cayman S
Cayman GTS
Cayman GT4
Cayman GT4RS

I'm pretty much sticking to the S and GTS versions. Pretty simple...it's either go fast or go faster or go really freaking faster

And I'm by no means a Porsche gear head, so if I got the above wrong please let me know. Just know what I've been shopping for in the Cayman, Macan, and Cayenne lines. Don't have the deep pockets to step into Turbo or Turbo S territory on the SUVs and 911's.

Nice! Me personally, I’d absolutely get the GTS. A few reasons I would get the GTS over the S, is this could be the last flat 6 in the 718, stronger resale value and it’s the same 4.0 in the GT4. Unfortunately, the price delta is pretty steep jumping to the 4.0 and if you’re not planning on keeping it past 4yrs, stick with the S.

[andyli888]

Honestly, AMG is worse than BMW by a mile. AMG lite cars like GLE43, C43, GLA35, etc are simply slow. GLE43 is a 5.2 second car while the X5 45e is 5.3 and the x5 m50i (it's direct competition) is 4.1. I own a GLS63 as well so no hate on their "real" AMGs

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by andyli888

Honestly, AMG is worse than BMW by a mile. AMG lite cars like GLE43, C43, GLA35, etc are simply slow. GLE43 is a 5.2 second car while the X5 45e is 5.3 and the x5 m50i (it's direct competition) is 4.1. I own a GLS63 as well so no hate on their "real" AMGs

Yep, Merc ruined it for me. I was big time AMG fanboy and did most of the AMG academy classes up to Pro+ and thankfully at a discounted rate since I was a good customer. They offer a drift class but by the time you get to Pro+, it’s not super necessary but still would have been fun. The value of classes are 100% worth it and you won’t forget the great people you meet and learn from. How many people can say they’ve trained and raced on Circuit of Americas course. However, Merc just pissed me off with the water down AMG line and yes they are worse in that regard then BMW hands down. GLA has to be the biggest pile of crap ever made by Merc. Granted it’s fun on a short distance lap cone course, so I’ll give it that.

[Mani59]

Hi all,

Whatever your views, can you all please be respectful to each other.
If in doubt, please refer to the below thread.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1952844

Thanks, Mani

[srosenj]

It's not an 'actual M' car, true. But, for shits and giggles, name how it's 'nothing like an actual M car', given the components and systems including engine, brakes, suspension, differential, chasis, exhaust, and tech are the same components. Not as much as you think, but let's see. Other than where it is built and who it is built by, I am only coming up with 1 or 2 things...specific engine tuning for racetrack and forged wheels.

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

BMW has stupid naming with M. Or perhaps it's intentionally misleading rather than stupid. Still stupid from a customer standpoint.

Honda:
- normal Civic
- Civic Si (Sport Injected)
- Civic Type R (race)

Ford:
- normal Focus/Fiesta
- Focus/Fiesta ST (sport)
- Focus/Fiesta RS (race)

Audi:
- A6 (normal)
- S6 (sport)
- RS6 (race)

Whereas with BMW it's (same for all their cars including X7, using the 5er as an example):
- 540 (normal)
- 540 M-sport (same as normal, but looks better)
- M550 (sport)
- M5 (race)

They dilute the M a lot. The names should really be:
- 540 (normal)
- 540 (normal, but looks better)
- m550 (lowercase - sport)
- M5 (race)

The X7 "M50" and "M60" are in that third category - "m". Nothing like an actual M car.
A lot of the suspension/chassis tech (and now the engine) is shared, but - as 10 other people have already explained here - m and M vehicles are extremely different despite those commonalities.

Mercedes does similar things with AMG. You can get an "AMG-line" appearance package on the base model non-sporty cars. Honda/Ford/VAG do the naming right.



It's the opposite. The Ghost used the 7 series platform as a base.

[srosenj]

Porsche is so darn confusing, and how do you get a turbo on an EV?

Originally Posted by Saejin

Gotta give an honorable mention to Porsche

As an example because I'm looking to get one...maybe...Cayman

Cayman
Cayman T
Cayman S
Cayman GTS
Cayman GT4
Cayman GT4RS

I'm pretty much sticking to the S and GTS versions. Pretty simple...it's either go fast or go faster or go really freaking faster

And I'm by no means a Porsche gear head, so if I got the above wrong please let me know. Just know what I've been shopping for in the Cayman, Macan, and Cayenne lines. Don't have the deep pockets to step into Turbo or Turbo S territory on the SUVs and 911's.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Mani59

Hi all,

Whatever your views, can you all please be respectful to each other.
If in doubt, please refer to the below thread.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1952844

Thanks, Mani

I appreciate you keeping your eyes wide opened, and keeping things clean all the time. Sorry that you had to continuously delete some of the non-sense comments.

[andyli888]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

Yep, Merc ruined it for me. I was big time AMG fanboy and did most of the AMG academy classes up to Pro+ and thankfully at a discounted rate since I was a good customer. They offer a drift class but by the time you get to Pro+, it’s not super necessary but still would have been fun. The value of classes are 100% worth it and you won’t forget the great people you meet and learn from. How many people can say they’ve trained and raced on Circuit of Americas course. However, Merc just pissed me off with the water down AMG line and yes they are worse in that regard then BMW hands down. GLA has to be the biggest pile of crap ever made by Merc. Granted it’s fun on a short distance lap cone course, so I’ll give it that.

I don't mind the GLA45 but the GLA35 is an abomination on AMG's storied name. Can you really be a hot hatch when a camry is better than you in almost every way?

[andyli888]

Originally Posted by srosenj

It's not an 'actual M' car, true. But, for shits and giggles, name how it's 'nothing like an actual M car', given the components and systems including engine, brakes, suspension, differential, chasis, exhaust, and tech are the same components. Not as much as you think, but let's see. Other than where it is built and who it is built by, I am only coming up with 1 or 2 things...specific engine tuning for racetrack and forged wheels.

Honestly, at this point M cars don't really mean anything when you have non M cars nominally outperforming "true" M cars. (looking at your spec sheet M2 vs M550.) I mean look at the 2022 M240i vs the 2019 M2 that car and driver did. It's pretty much neck and neck. It's really a pissing contest now where it's mehhh.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

BMW has stupid naming with M. Or perhaps it's intentionally misleading rather than stupid. Still stupid from a customer standpoint.

Honda:
- normal Civic
- Civic Si (Sport Injected)
- Civic Type R (race)

Ford:
- normal Focus/Fiesta
- Focus/Fiesta ST (sport)
- Focus/Fiesta RS (race)

Audi:
- A6 (normal)
- S6 (sport)
- RS6 (race)

Whereas with BMW it's (same for all their cars including X7, using the 5er as an example):
- 540 (normal)
- 540 M-sport (same as normal, but looks better)
- M550 (sport)
- M5 (race)

They dilute the M a lot. The names should really be:
- 540 (normal)
- 540 (normal, but looks better)
- m550 (lowercase - sport)
- M5 (race)

The X7 "M50" and "M60" are in that third category - "m". Nothing like an actual M car.
A lot of the suspension/chassis tech (and now the engine) is shared, but - as 10 other people have already explained here - m and M vehicles are extremely different despite those commonalities.

Mercedes does similar things with AMG. You can get an "AMG-line" appearance package on the base model non-sporty cars. Honda/Ford/VAG do the naming right.



It's the opposite. The Ghost used the 7 series platform as a base.

Well said. Additionally, shared components is something we see between all kind of vehicles regardless of which category they do belong to, and it does not make any vehicle closer or more far away from another tier. The third category is probably where I'd be satisfied that my BMW Falls within, and I think that most BMW consumers are okay with the fact that the X7 is "nothing like an actual M car" to it's fully capacity because their is an XB7 if anyone wanted to take that route for that reason. There is an XB7 for a reason.