[MR_M2]

Some great comments here.
Core article: https://www.tuvsud.com/en/press-and-...the-difference

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by MR_M2

Some great comments here.
Core article: https://www.tuvsud.com/en/press-and-...the-difference

Very interesting and in-depth article. Thanks!

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

- Digital keys don’t conflict between two users. The car always recognizes who is driving.
-No turning on and off
-Instant torque and no gearbox shifting can’t be compared to anything else.
-One pedal driving is super comfortable.
-One pedal driving means you never need brakes service.
-One pedal driving means your wheels don’t get dirty instantly like in many cars.
-Car is practically 100% maintenance free.
-Many warranty stuff can be done by Tesla at your house.
-Car is fully charged every morning.
-Tons of fuel savings.
-Tesla navigation and software is years ahead of any other brand. I mean, it even recommends to charge 100% when a hurricane is coming.
-Turn signal cameras for blind spots.
-Cruise control can be activated from 10mph. Useful for school zones. (BMW 20mph minimum).
-Theater system is amazing.
-Not only software and features keep improving very frequently, but they also keep coming up with new ones.
-Front and rear trunks storage.
-Phone can be seen while on the wireless charger.
-Car is always recording its surroundings parked and driving.
-You can view all the cameras live from the app.
-You can leave the A/C on all you want while parked without an engine idling.
-A/C is VERY strong.
-Seats A/C works.

…among many others.

My point isn’t that it is a perfect car. Our X7 has some things that are better than our Tesla like a more luxurious interior, a very soft ride, B&W sound is amazing, etc. and I do like the X7, but definitely if one car has to go, it will be any other before the Tesla. But hey, to each their own ✌��.

A few more that I like:
- A ton of autonomous features, such as:
- Car shifts automatically the the most likelihood gear (D or R) based on AI or situation around
- Car opens the home garage door automatically when it knows u arrived your home driveway
- The car will learn to ALWAYS raise up it’s heigh each time u reach specific location or spot or road (do it once, and car will automatically do it each time
- No secondary multimedia system (the native car system and maps are 2nd to none
- No turn on or off… Just jump to the car seat and move.. or just leave the car… without pressing a single button beside opening the door.
- For Model X, the front (and rear) doors automatically open and automatically close (like a RoseRoyce or new S-class).
- Supports so many THIRD PARTY APPS… this is huge to me. Via one single button on my Apple Watch, I can pre-heat the car.
- You can use your Apple Watch as the key if u go to Gym or run outside (no phone needed) or u can even buy a 20 bucks ring from Amazon and make it a key, even 3rd party accessories
- The stability is 2nd to none… the tires on the Model S and Model X are so wide, and traction control is amazing. Torque vectoring in the Plaid is awesome.
- For BMW drivers, u won’t miss any sporty feeling, in fact I found the Model S more stable and fun to drive than my former 7-series or 5-series
- The technology keeps evolving.. u can literally have a 7 years old car, and Tesla will surprise you with NEW features u never realized. They continue to support and update all cars due to minimal changes year over year…
- The current vehicles with Hardware 4.0 are expected to stay on top of the game tech wise for at least 10 years.
- Kids really like the rear infotainment screen (standard on Model X and S).
- the headlights can be easily adjusted up from the driver screen, service window, and their brightness is 2nd to none… The best headlights on any car I ever owned (had to raise them up 2 notches).
- U can access “LIVE” streaming from your phone and see all the 6 cameras around the car
- The vehicle as you drive is actually recording 100% of the time.
- The seats are the most comfortable seats… Tesla seats have great polyurethane foam and are known to be so comfortable.
- The vegan seats leather is actually better than any high-end leather I have on all my other 100K cars… zero maintenance, zero cracks, doesn’t even need conditioning, and feels way too soft.
- The screen is huge and I never ever need to swipe from window to another as am driving.. all main functions are readily available to the touch unlike ID7 or ID8.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

- Digital keys don’t conflict between two users. The car always recognizes who is driving. I don’t have this problem with my Wife and her key
-No turning on and off This is not a feature, but an attribute of EV’s, including BMW EV’s and PHEV’s and someone with an ICE isn’t necessarily disadvantaged by lacking this attribute
-Instant torque and no gearbox shifting can’t be compared to anything else. this is not a feature, but an attribute of EV’s, including BMW EV’s and PHEV’s and someone with an ICE isn’t necessarily disadvantaged by lacking this attribute
-One pedal driving is super comfortable. this is not a feature, but an attribute of EV’s, including BMW EV’s and PHEV’s and someone with an ICE isn’t necessarily disadvantaged by lacking this attribute
-One pedal driving means you never need brakes service. This is not a feature, but an attribute of EV’s, including BMW EV’s and PHEV’s and someone with an ICE isn’t necessarily disadvantaged (brake wear is entirely subjective to the individual’s driving style)
-One pedal driving means your wheels don’t get dirty instantly like in many cars. this is not a feature, but an attribute of EV’s, including BMW EV’s and PHEV’s and someone with an ICE isn’t disadvantaged by lacking this attribute… I ceramic coat my rims for fast/easy cleaning
-Car is practically 100% maintenance free. Tesla replaces routine mechanical maintenance with fit/finish/reliability problems that for many owners makes it just as expensive and frustrating to own as a problematic ICE, including the need to eventually replace the batteries, which will essentially total the car because it’s not worth the expense. Furthermore, many of us understand the relative simplicity of the BMW B58/ZF8/Xdrive drivetrain and could service these cars ourselves without dealership expenses outside of warranty
-Many warranty stuff can be done by Tesla at your house. This means nothing to anyone with a dealership nearby with a loaner fleet, which is the majority of BMW dealerships and BMW owners
-Car is fully charged every morning. This means nothing to me. I would rather spend 3 to 5 minutes at the gas station every 500-600 miles than retrofit a charging system into my garage and constantly have to plug and unplug it every day… how delusional are EV owners to think they’ve somehow made their lives better by integrating range anxiety into their daily lives
-Tons of fuel savings. Where I live in California, both PG&E and Tesla charging stations charge more per kWh for electricity than the cost of premium fuel! Many states are quickly heading in the same direction. I would have to spend $15000 to expand my home solar footprint to justify the existence of an EV in my garage to avoid being ripped off by the electric grid
-Tesla navigation and software is years ahead of any other brand. I mean, it even recommends to charge 100% when a hurricane is coming. (This is beyond subjective and not a feature at all. Many prefer Android auto, Apple CarPlay or Idrive… does Tesla navigation project your location with map and next turn onto the HUD… this is actually a practical feature missing in a Tesla related to navigation
-Turn signal cameras for blind spots. BMW has active blind spot monitoring lights and avoidance technology… near enough makes no difference
-Cruise control can be activated from 10mph. Useful for school zones. (BMW 20mph minimum). ?? Have you read you manual to know what your X7 can do? BMW driver assistance professional and professional plus works at all speeds, stop and go and hands free up to 80mpg. Maybe you skipped this feature on your build or don’t know how to use it? There actually a strong consensus that BMW DAPP functions more reliably than Tesla autopilot
-Theater system is amazing. To entertain yourself while stuck in your car at a supercharger station? I have no interest in having a theatrical experience in my car… a well tuned stereo while I drive will more than suffice
-Not only software and features keep improving very frequently, but they also keep coming up with new ones. I’ve read through the “software update” change logs that Tesla constantly pushes out… they’re either fixing something that is broken, or they’re introducing some new gimmick to help keep you distracted while you deal with the frustration of being trapped at a supercharger for 30+ minutes
-Front and rear trunks storage. (YES! LITERALLY THE ONLY THING ON THIS ENTIRE LIST THAT IS A PRACTICAL FEATURE LACKING IN A BMW)
-Phone can be seen while on the wireless charger. (I do not want to see my phone or touch my phone while I am driving, it’s fully integrated into my vehicle via CarPlay and the need to see my phone is pointless)
-Car is always recording its surroundings parked and driving. BMW drive recorder records any event that triggers the alarm… near enough makes no difference
-You can view all the cameras live from the app. BMW has a similar feature called remote 3D view… near enough makes no difference
-You can leave the A/C on all you want while parked without an engine idling. Sounds like wasted battery. BMW can be configured to remotely start and precondition the cabin prior to departure either on the fly or at a planned departure time
-A/C is VERY strong. I’m not complaining about the strength of my AC… this is subjective
-Seats A/C works. Again, very subjective as some say it works and others don’t. I personally don’t run hot or have back sweat and have never benefited from seat cooling, I only care about seat heating. My guess is larger folks are the ones who need beefy seat cooling, which is the very subjective

…among many others. (Please go on… I’m curious what else you purport to be a missing “feature” in a BMW)

My point isn’t that it is a perfect car. Our X7 has some things that are better than our Tesla like a more luxurious interior, a very soft ride, B&W sound is amazing, etc. and I do like the X7, but definitely if one car has to go, it will be any other before the Tesla. But hey, to each their own ✌��.

I honestly see where you’re coming from and no doubt you enjoy your EV experience, but the only practical feature on that entire list you just made was front trunk storage. Your list is composed of things that aren’t even features, but things specific to EV’s, including BMW EV’s. What I see is you inadvertently revealing you simply prefer the Tesla implementation vs the BMW implementation, which is cool and all, but that doesn’t mean I have to swallow your biased pill. I mean, if an ICE driver is completely comfortable using two pedals after a lifetime of using a gas pedal and a brake pedal, should they care about the potential to drive with one pedal? And let’s not get into the weeds about how EV makers have poorly programmed brake light functionality during the slowdown/regenerative part of one-pedal driving, which can cause accidents. In all seriousness, your list is mostly rubbish.

[tatoweb]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I honestly see where you’re coming from and no doubt you enjoy your EV experience, but the only practical feature on that entire list you just made was front trunk storage. Your list is composed of things that aren’t even features, but things specific to EV’s, including BMW EV’s. What I see is you inadvertently revealing you simply prefer the Tesla implementation vs the BMW implementation, which is cool and all, but that doesn’t mean I have to swallow your biased pill. I mean, if an ICE driver is completely comfortable using two pedals after a lifetime of using a gas pedal and a brake pedal, should they care about the potential to drive with one pedal? And let’s not get into the weeds about how EV makers have poorly programmed brake light functionality during the slowdown/regenerative part of one-pedal driving, which can cause accidents. In all seriousness, your list is mostly rubbish.

I don't agree with most of your answers and could write an argument on each one and/or explain how some things work on Teslas which clearly, you are assuming wrong (by the way, in your BMW try to engage DAP when going less than 20mph and see if it engages) in order to keep an enjoyable debate, but when I read "delusional", "swallow your biased pill" and "your list is rubbish", honestly I have zero interest in continuing any type of debate with you.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I honestly see where you’re coming from and no doubt you enjoy your EV experience, but the only practical feature on that entire list you just made was front trunk storage. Your list is composed of things that aren’t even features, but things specific to EV’s, including BMW EV’s. What I see is you inadvertently revealing you simply prefer the Tesla implementation vs the BMW implementation, which is cool and all, but that doesn’t mean I have to swallow your biased pill. I mean, if an ICE driver is completely comfortable using two pedals after a lifetime of using a gas pedal and a brake pedal, should they care about the potential to drive with one pedal? And let’s not get into the weeds about how EV makers have poorly programmed brake light functionality during the slowdown/regenerative part of one-pedal driving, which can cause accidents. In all seriousness, your list is mostly rubbish.

This is the silliest response I ever read here, lol… arguing that something is an “attribute” and not a “feature”… lolol who the … cares what you call it… feature or attribute, it’s still a plus for the owner, we are not in an english class lol.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

I don't agree with most of your answers and could write an argument on each one and/or explain how some things work on Teslas which clearly, you are assuming wrong (by the way, in your BMW try to engage DAP when going less than 20mph and see if it engages) in order to keep an enjoyable debate, but when I read "delusional", "swallow your biased pill" and "your list is rubbish", honestly I have zero interest in continuing any type of debate with you.

If you had no interest in continuing the debate, you wouldn’t have replied like you just did with an attempt to get the last word in. You simply need to understand that when you enter the realm of the PURELY SUBJECTIVE when speaking of your vehicle’s attributes as if they’re somehow better when they are quantifiable not, you should be prepared for a stern response that puts you in your place.


If you really want to talk about the practicality of your EV, you’ve got a front trunk and one pedal driving… but here is the trade-off.

1. Reduced range (well below advertised range) on pure highway driving. Tesla is facing a class action for this.

2. Significantly reduced range in the extreme cold.

3. Reduced range in high heat. Better not turn on that super cold blowing A/C or your range will go to shit

4. Dependency on unstable electricity rates. As I already mentioned, California rates are higher than premium fuel!

5. You can never travel further than ~150 miles from a charging network for fear of being stranded, barring many travel destinations in our country’s interior with underdeveloped EV infrastructure, such as national/state parks, historical destinations, entire swaths of middle America. The whole point of a SUV is to be able to go anywhere you want. Leave your EV at home if you want to go somewhere that is actually memorable, EV’s are good for going to the store to buy toilet paper.

6. “Topping off” or constantly keeping your battery at 100% reduces its lifespan, so you should keep it at 80% whenever possible. But don’t let it go below 30% either! Jesus! I guess that means only 50% of my battery is actually usable on a day-to-day basis. This sure is getting confusing!

7. Once your car is out of warranty, almost any sort of drivetrain problem is going to total the car… 10, 20, 30k repair bills are commonly reported. Dead battery as mentioned in #6 costs more than the car!

8. EV hell during the holidays trying to travel long distances with all the other EVs on the roads. Have fun with that!

9. EV insurance rates are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year because of #7

10. Electricity rates for charging are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year.

11. EV sales have effectively crashed as I type this and depreciation rates are primed to take a major dump.


12. EV’s are actually terrible for the environment when you trace their carbon footprint to the source.

13. Did I mention how stupid it is to have to wait 30+ minutes for your car to recharge at a supercharger? Charge times way longer at inferior chargers you may be forced to use.

14. Battery fires, better call Saul!

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

This is the silliest response I ever read here, lol… arguing that something is an “attribute” and not a “feature”… lolol who the … cares what you call it… feature or attribute, it’s still a plus for the owner, we are not in an english class lol.

It’s your problem, not mine, if you can’t navigate the nuances between objective vs subjective and features vs attributes and how they are related to each other.

Instant EV torque is an attribute, not a feature. I can prove it in one simple example: Some people complain about the head jarring effect of instant torque from EV on full throttle, while some praise it. Who is right? Can you arbitrarily say who is right? Of course not, it’s simply an attribute.

Objective vs Subjective: You think you giant middle screen in your Tesla that forces you to take your eyes off the road is better than my panorama screen with HUD that ensures I’m always looking ahead? Clearly this is subjective because it’s my preference against yours… nobody wins this argument! Get a clue!

The whole reason I’m replying to these threads is because I have plenty of Tesla seat time and whenever I drive my ICE BMW’s, I always think to myself that it’s different but not necessarily better and I have to roll my eyes at anyone who says differently.

[cochese]

Teslas are fun, I owned one since 2016, but they suck for road trips. Waiting in a long line, then waiting to charge means hours of time not on the road. To me, all that other stuff doesn’t matter if you’re stuck with this limitation. Just took our first road trip with the family in our new X7 and it was really enjoyable. Didn’t worry for an instant about having to stop and wait. It’s freeing, after wrestling with our model S on long trips for too long.

[rjabend]

I was reading that the superchargers shorten battery life over the destination chargers. I was wondering if anyone can gauge the difference. Is it really that significant a difference in battery degradation? There is probably no need to use the superchargers when for example you are staying overnight. Timewise the superchargers hardly slow you down while on the road.

[tatoweb]

Originally Posted by rjabend

I was reading that the superchargers shorten battery life over the destination chargers. I was wondering if anyone can gauge the difference. Is it really that significant a difference?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-r...y%20longevity.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

Short answer: no.

Long answer: https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-r...y%20longevity.

That graph shows little and likely no difference. Fast charging means higher current and more heat. No difference in degradation likely means that Tesla is using higher quality batteries with large conductors that reduce the IR drop and resultant temperature increase. Cooling system efficacy is likely helping also. ++ for Elon.

PS - There could also be current limiting circuitry that senses temperature rise and adjusts current flow rate accordingly.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by rjabend

That graph shows little and likely no difference. Fast charging means higher current and more heat. No difference in degradation likely means that Tesla is using higher quality batteries with large conductors that reduce the IR drop and resultant temperature increase. Cooling system efficacy is likely helping also. ++ for Elon.

It will take a lot of supercharging to see a real measurable difference. If you have a garage and charge at home, and only use supercharge during trips, i will not even see any different.

Plus, for someone who buys a brand new 80-100K car, I just assume they u r not going to keep it for >8 years. In the case, Tesla GUARANTEES the degradation to stay within a certain reasonable limit, so I could really care less.. TeslaFi has a HUGE database of millions of datapoints… Going through them I can tell than 99% of the vehicles stay within a very small degradation level. Tesla has been in the EV game long enough and I think they make the best batteries.

[BMW5and7]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I..//.. You simply need to understand that when you enter the realm of the PURELY SUBJECTIVE when speaking of your vehicle’s attributes as if they’re somehow better when they are quantifiable not, you should be prepared for a stern response that puts you in your place.

Your original long post above here (shortened here to avoid repeating the misinformation) is full of wrong, lies and misinformation… I hate to see that in public forum especially when things are just shared and spread without adequate knowledge.

Claim 1: Not true, mine has 405 miles, and I get exactly 402 estimated from a full charge, based on extrapolating my usage from 10 to 95%….

Claim 2. Significantly reduced range in the extreme cold.
WRONG… it is not “significant”.. Reduced? Yes… significant? No; wrong. I just made a 240 miles trip at 30 degrees in snow…. The only different was only 25 miles compared to 70-80 degF weather out of 240 miles for the same charge % (about 10%). NEW tesla uses a very efficient heat pump… older Teslas did NOT. Other EVs also have severe drop but not new Tesla… ur knowledge seems to be outdated here an inaccurate.

Claim 3. … claim does not have any quantification behind it, so it’s worthless to respond. Reduce range in hot weather? Sure, but how much. Well, not much based on my experience, not even 5% different between 95 degF and 75 degF.

Claim 4. Who cares about CA rates.. lol… That’s one state out of so many…. Globally, 99% of the times kWh would be cheaper per mile than gasoline.

5. You can never travel further than ~150 miles from a charging network for fear of being stranded
Absolutely stupid wrong claim. I drove just fine up to 370 miles, leaving a good 30 miles and 10% towards the end of my trip…. and I did that several times. The same way I do that in my ICE cars (until the last 30 miles range) I do that in my EV too.

6. “Topping off” or constantly keeping your battery at 100% reduces its lifespan, so you should keep it at 80% whenever possible. But don’t let it go below 30% either!
That tells me that u have zero experience with EVs. 100% wrong to some degree. The fact that u should avoid 100% charge is true, but the 30% avoidance is WRONG.. In fact, degradation is LOWEST level between 10-60%. U avoid going below 10%, but NOT 30%… in fact the battery is at it’s healthiest level between 30-40% for Lithium ion batteries. Also if u have a Model 3, in fact, it is healthier to keep it at 100% all the time based on the battery type… so whatever u said has no basis and wrong generally speaking. U can always charge to 100% just fine for long trips… but there is no need to keep it 100% EVERY FREAKING DAY… Just like ICE, u never keep it full 100% every single day… treat EV same way, u only need 100% during road trips and do it once every week or month 100% is okay and will have no measurable impact if only done this way.

Claims 7 -8 are just random talk… records say that EV have the lowest cost of ownership and maintenance compared to any other car even at high mileage.

9. EV insurance rates are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year because of #7
This is a lie. I have a 120K X7, a 95K X5, a 160K S-class, and a Tesla Model S. The current re-sale value of my Tesla is higher than any of them because it is the newest one, however, it has the LOWEST insurance rate compared to all of them!! Literally the lowest rate… and no rate has not been going exponentially.. in fact in some states u can even get insurance directly from TESLA… waaay too cheap.

10. Electricity rates for charging are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year.
Lie. Sounds like u have no idea what exponentially mean. Also electricity for charging or other uses is the same electricity… if u mean supercharging, then u r also wrong… it may have increased, but not exponentially and still way cheaper than gasoline in 99% of the cases and locations globally and in the US

11. EV sales have effectively crashed as I type this and depreciation rates are primed to take a major dump.
Lololol… Model Y is the best selling car IN THE ENTIRE GLOBE. PERIOD… EV sales in general for some brands is down cause they make trashy car, but for Tesla, they are CONSISTENTLY GOING UP UP YEAR OVER YEAR. Again, let that sync in, Tesla Model Y is the best selling car ever (of any type, any-where).
“ Global plugin vehicle registrations were up 45% in August 2023 compared to August 2022, rising to 1,238,00 units.Oct 7, 2023”
also right from Reuters: “ Dec 12, 2023 — Sales of BEVs and PHEVs hit a fresh monthly record of 1.4 million units, up from 1.1 million in November 2022. Sales have continued to rise ...”
U seem to just write things randomly… That’s why I dislike unmoderated forums from the prospective of fact-checking.. People write random things and are free to draft lies out of their imagination.

12. EV’s are actually terrible for the environment when you trace their carbon footprint to the source.
Bla bla bla okay okay… so? Lol. Majority of folks here drive V8. If u buy EV to save the earth, then u r dump, cause I hardly doubt majority of buyers do it for this reason. Despite all of that, I still believe that in the future EVs will have much better carbon foot print.

13. Did I mention how stupid it is to have to wait 30+ minutes for your car to recharge at a supercharger? Charge times way longer at inferior chargers you may be forced to use.
Lie.. longest i ever had to wait was 20 minute to get from 20 to 80%, majority of time I do less because I charge it from 10% to 60% where it’s fastest “about 9 minutes only” as takes much less to go through that 50% at low charge levels than going from 40% to 90%.

14. Battery fires, better call Saul!
This shows how much of a amateur u r in such topics. According to the analysis of U.S. government data, EV fires occur less frequently than ICE vehicles, with 25.1 fires for every 100,000 vehicles sold compared to 1,529 fires for ICE vehicles (Date: Aug 24, 2023). Tesla isolated fires are even much lower than statistical average of all EVs together.

[jtariq]

If you really want to talk about the practicality of your EV, you’ve got a front trunk and one pedal driving… but here is the trade-off.

1. Reduced range (well below advertised range) on pure highway driving. Tesla is facing a class action for this.

2. Significantly reduced range in the extreme cold.

3. Reduced range in high heat. Better not turn on that super cold blowing A/C or your range will go to shit

4. Dependency on unstable electricity rates. As I already mentioned, California rates are higher than premium fuel!

5. You can never travel further than ~150 miles from a charging network for fear of being stranded, barring many travel destinations in our country’s interior with underdeveloped EV infrastructure, such as national/state parks, historical destinations, entire swaths of middle America. The whole point of a SUV is to be able to go anywhere you want. Leave your EV at home if you want to go somewhere that is actually memorable, EV’s are good for going to the store to buy toilet paper.

6. “Topping off” or constantly keeping your battery at 100% reduces its lifespan, so you should keep it at 80% whenever possible. But don’t let it go below 30% either! Jesus! I guess that means only 50% of my battery is actually usable on a day-to-day basis. This sure is getting confusing!

7. Once your car is out of warranty, almost any sort of drivetrain problem is going to total the car… 10, 20, 30k repair bills are commonly reported. Dead battery as mentioned in #6 costs more than the car!

8. EV hell during the holidays trying to travel long distances with all the other EVs on the roads. Have fun with that!

9. EV insurance rates are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year because of #7

10. Electricity rates for charging are rising EXPONENTIALLY year after year.

11. EV sales have effectively crashed as I type this and depreciation rates are primed to take a major dump.

12. EV’s are actually terrible for the environment when you trace their carbon footprint to the source.

13. Did I mention how stupid it is to have to wait 30+ minutes for your car to recharge at a supercharger? Charge times way longer at inferior chargers you may be forced to use.

14. Battery fires, better call Saul!

You have some interesting points here and I think they should be discussed objectively. The fact is that ICE engines are heavily affected by the environment (not as much as battery operated) as well, temperature, altitude gain, winter mix of ethanol, etc. and we also see range estimates tends to be way off even in our BMW X7s. However, ready access to the gas stations makes that a non issue. For the first 5 items plus items 8 and 13 in your list the root cause is actually the same for all. We simply do not have the pervasiveness of fast chargers like we have gas stations everywhere. Once the charging infrastructure gets ubiquitous like the gas stations, those 5 issues you mentioned will become less of a concern but the fact is that we are still a few years from getting there. Quite frankly, that is what is saving the bacon for the traditional ICE companies like BMW because all of us need and use our X7s specially for longer family trips etc which are few and far between, and EVs can fill the gap for 90% of our use without any issue.

Item 6 is becoming less of an issue as LFP batteries are taking hold but in general for those of us that owns Teslas as well, staying within that 50% range is a non issue, very few people drive more than 150 miles and hence that “limitation” causes very little to no inconvenience. Ironically, those who do drive a lot more miles in a day tend to financially benefit the most from owning an electric vehicle.

Items 9 and 10, no doubt the insurance rates tend to be higher but there is nothing “exponentially” increasing about them. Similarly, in most states the electricity rates are not increasing exponentially. Although, I do agree that as a society we have to figure out how to manage the cost of electricity as the demand shifts. Having said that, Solar Power is also continuing to expand and some interesting alternatives are developing.

Item 11 is actually affecting us current EV owners more than the new prospective owners. However, the primary driver for that is that Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that has reached scale and they are waging a price war against all late entrants and this is actually good for consumers to get the commoditization to happen quickly.

Item 12 is no doubt an issue as well, however EVs are a step in the right direction and are less terrible than the traditional ICE cars. Hopefully processes and battery technology will continue to improve and we will see the carbon footprint continue to decline.

Finally, I think we will continue to have growing pains and engineering issues that lead to issues like you identified in item 14. Those actually apply across the board, and we have to just evolve through them. I am sure you have seen ICE engines with fire raging under the hood. No doubt that EVs have a higher burden to address such issues since a battery occupies a lot of space.

Fundamentally I think we all see where the future lies. For some of us, we are early adopters while others want to see a more robust infrastructure getting in place before they start adopting the EVs.

IIMHO, Tesla has revitalized the auto industry that was moving slowly (and some may say for good reason) and has pushed us all to think of our vehicles in a new way and challenged the conventions that had taken hold without a lot of logic to it. They make cars that are fun to drive, keep getting better with updates, and keep pushing the boundaries for a more interesting future. At the same time, they need to learn from (some) traditional auto manufacturers how to improve quality.

[cochese]

Originally Posted by rjabend

Timewise the superchargers hardly slow you down while on the road.

Well that’s just not true. If you happen to be lucky and pull up to a station with an open charger, you’re looking at a minimum 45 minute charge. Hopefully there’s a meal nearby and you can absorb the time. But if you pull up to a station with a line of cars you may be there for 2-4 hours. I speak from experience. The tough part is it’s totally unpredictable. You can’t know how long you’ll be waiting a week beforehand when you’re planning your route. Or if it’s a holiday you can just predict a long wait I guess.

[tatoweb]

Originally Posted by cochese

Well that’s just not true. If you happen to be lucky and pull up to a station with an open charger, you’re looking at a minimum 45 minute charge. Hopefully there’s a meal nearby and you can absorb the time. But if you pull up to a station with a line of cars you may be there for 2-4 hours. I speak from experience. The tough part is it’s totally unpredictable. You can’t know how long you’ll be waiting a week beforehand when you’re planning your route. Or if it’s a holiday you can just predict a long wait I guess.

A minimum 45 minutes charge?. I’ve driven around 150,000 miles between the few Teslas I’ve had and never sat at a charger for “a minimum” of 45 minutes. However, if during a road trip you plan to make just short stops, you’ll definitely arrive faster in an ICE car.

Just for illustration, here’s a random trip I just programmed in the app from Texas to Nevada and I don’t see the need to charge for 45+ minutes anywhere. And if you had a Tesla, you know how accurate their nav system is.

[cochese]

Originally Posted by tatoweb

A minimum 45 minutes charge?. I’ve driven around 150,000 miles between the few Teslas I’ve had and never sat at a charger for “a minimum” of 45 minutes. However, if during a road trip you plan to make just short stops, you’ll definitely arrive faster in an ICE car.

Just for illustration, here’s a random trip I just programmed in the app from Texas to Nevada and I don’t see the need to charge for 45+ minutes anywhere. And if you had a Tesla, you know how accurate their nav system is.

Good luck doing that in California. Nope.

Look, I love my Tesla, but im not a fanboy koolaid drinker. It’s good at some things but stress free road trips with my family is definitely not one of those things.

[tatoweb]

Originally Posted by cochese

Good luck doing that in California. Nope.

Look, I love my Tesla, but im not a fanboy koolaid drinker. It’s good at some things but stress free road trips with my family is definitely not one of those things.

I’ve never been to California in my car so can’t refute your point. I’m also a believer that a road trip (and even more with kids) is easier in a gas car.

I was just relating my experience with supercharging during these years.

I don’t see where or how I’m calling you a fanboy or a koolaid drinker 😄. Just relax.

[turnem05]

Originally Posted by BMW5and7

It is easy to talk trash about Tesla from the outside…. But as seen above, almost everyone who have tried or currently owns a Tesla can tell you that it is a great car with a great ownership experience.

I wouldn’t mind selling my X7, or X5 or my Benz, but I’d never leave my garage without a Tesla.

You won’t get the same BMW service dealership experience, because service by design isnt a big part of owning a Tesla, but even when u need them, u submit a ticket using the app and then they come to your garage to fix things for u… as simple as that.

As for Self Driving, I’d never pay the 12K, but on long road trips, u can unlock that feature for 200 bucks for a full month. The most recent release, is actually almost like magic… the car really drives itself… hands down better than every other driving assistant system on any other car. And by the way, Auto Pilot is FREE and STANDARD on every Tesla, and is way more than enough for 99% of the times, unless u really want the car to drive u through city u-turns and do the stop signs and hard turns for u, then get the full self driving.

I've owned a Model 3 and it will go down as one of my favorite vehicles of all time!

I've currently just traded in my X5 for an X7 as I wanted a bigger SUV to more comfortably transport my family on longer road trips. I was THIS close to getting a Model X and the main reasons I went back to the X7 were:

• The Model X falcon wing doors are just too "showy" for me. I love the convenience of them but I just don't think I'd be comfortable knowing that people are looking at us all the time.
• The M60 engine in the X7 is almost as fun as the Model X. Close enough!
• The fit/luxury of the Model X is quite good but the X7 still edges it out considerably.
• FSD (even in its current state) is better than BMW's driver assistance. However, BMW's driver assistane modes are close enough to what Tesla's offers (excluding their FSD Beta) to give me what I want.

I originally wanted to get the Captains Chairs for the X7 but there's not a good way to slide between them to access the back row... even for my 11 year old son. So I went with the bench seat which will give me WAY more storage and still give my son his own space in the back instead of wedging in between his two sisters!

[Saejin]

This went downhill fast. Understand people can get passionate about their cars and was enjoying reading the different perspectives. The problem is depending on how you look at things everybody is right and everybody can be wrong.

Anyway, on to the next thread, think this one has run its course.

[rjabend]

Originally Posted by Saejin

This went downhill fast. Understand people can get passionate about their cars and was enjoying reading the different perspectives. The problem is depending on how you look at things everybody is right and everybody can be wrong EXCEPT ME .

Anyway, on to the next thread, think this one has run its course.

--Just kidding!