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      12-04-2019, 11:04 AM   #1
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Thought about RR, went with X7. How many others??

I had been planning to dive into the SUV world for the first time after driving sports coupes and sports sedans for a long time. Maybe its a sign of getting older.. If I was going to jump into a SUV, I wanted it to be an actual SUV. I didn't really want another sedan type experience in a SUV form so wanted to "go big or go home". Disclaimer: no children or family quite yet so this is all for ME (how many more like me out there??)

When I first saw the X7 in pictures, I literally couldn't believe BMW's design direction. I was appalled, ridiculed the brand and decided to look elsewhere after having several BMWs previously. I always loved the RR look but after digging deeper into it, realized that reliability issues still plague the brand and hard to get a properly equipped full size RR for <100k. Plus it is towards the end of it's life cycle and I was planning on purchasing. I didn't want to be stuck longterm with something that will provide nothing but headaches.

It all changed when I saw the X7 in person. WOW it has presence. The same presence you see from the Rover. It is intimidating, large and in charge. The X5 does NOT provide that and neither do all the other SUVs from other brands. In fact, this makes the X5 look very bland in my opinion. I was hooked. Did a lot of research on packages and build options. Went with a Carbon Black X7 40i, M sport with cold weather (live in NE), premium, parking assist, glass controls. Will post pics soon!
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      12-04-2019, 11:24 AM   #2
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Congrats with the new car! I have always wanted to consider the RR but have been with BMW for the last 10 years. As much as the exterior of the RR is attractive, I am completely put off by the interior design and am somewhat concerned with the reliability issues although I think they are overblown. I am in the market for a new lease and may test drive the RR but can't say I am seriously considering one.
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      12-04-2019, 12:47 PM   #3
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While waiting (what seemed like eternity) for the X7 to come to market, I gave Range Rover a shot. From my opinion the quality was far inferior. Parts just spontaneously fell off the car including the handle trim and plastic trim in the passenger door. But what really turned me from RR and the reason I was happy to be done with them was the service. It just didn't feel like the service you get from owning a luxury vehicle and certainly not the level you get from BMW. When I got my RR they had actually double sided taped the license plate onto the car. It was never attached with bolts. Of course it fell off on the freeway and was gone forever. When serviced, I was on my own for a rental car and scheduling was a hassle. BMW communication and service has been excellent from the start. BMW actually sent me a $1000 check, completely unexpected, because there was a couple week delay with delivery. That is incredible. I am loving the X7 and am back with BMW for good.
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      12-04-2019, 11:21 PM   #4
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TL; DR- we really like the Range Rover Sport but ordered an X7...

Long form b/c I really like Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) and haven't seen anyone mention them for a while:

We checked out the X5, GLE, Range Rover Sport, and X7. Trying to thread a needle between soccer carpools, limited urban garage space, trips to the mountains, camping, and a modicum of performance.

Each offering lived up to the brand - the Mercedes felt cushy and passenger friendly. The RR had great pickup and also felt like it could go anywhere off-road. The BMW's were definitely the most dynamic.

FWIW, I love the RR aesthetic. The shape is beautiful and the customization (wheel selection, paint options, carbon fiber) are best in class IMHO. The core of the RR team is actually all former BMW- the engineer who originally proposed SUV's in Munich got shot down back in the 90s. Back then, the Germans thought the market was better suited to "proper estates" or station wagons.

Even so, BMW ended up beating Mercedes and Audi to the North American SUV market. The guy who first saw the opportunity ended up running Ford's Premier Auto Group (Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover) and then moved on to run other (non-auto) companies. When Tata bought JLR, they asked who could reinvigorate the brand. This guy and his team from Munich have been behind the new designs on the RR, the RR Sport, Velar, Evoque etc.

They are brilliant at design, but they are under resourced. Model proliferation went too far, and they have heavy cars which hurts when emission standards get tighter. Nonetheless, I thought the quality concerns had to be overstated- how can a luxury car manufacturer not resolve production issues that have hampered the brand for decades?

Anecdotally, we've had 5 friends buy LR brand cars. 2 were lemons. I looked up Tata's financials, and warranty costs have gone from 3% to 9% of sales, which indicates quality issues aren't just anecdotal. That, plus the order times for UK manufacturing, led us to choose the X7.

Again for TL;DR- RR's are beautiful but we ordered an X7 and should be taking delivery next week.
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      12-04-2019, 11:53 PM   #5
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The X7 just came out....so you really are comparing a brand new model versus a RR that is basically in the last year of this body style (maybe it has 1 more year, at most).

Couple this with the absolute archaic tech in the Range (Navi screen is basically what BMW had back in 2006)...it's not really a comparison.

RR is a nice looking car....but hard to overlook the other stuff.
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      12-05-2019, 08:00 AM   #6
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I have both 2018 RR autobiography and just got the 2020 X7M50.
When I drive my RR or see one on the road it still gives me goosebumps. It has presence , style and status and there is nothing like it on the road. I had never had a single issue with it and everything runs fine. You need to get into Autobiography trim to make it extra special and cover it with full leather , fancy seats, trims etc.
However when it come to driving dynamics and sound , X7M50 is a beast but more family oriented, soccer mom feeling ... lol. So two different cars , but RR is always a special car and there is nothing like it on the road.
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      12-06-2019, 10:16 AM   #7
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My wife had the RR for 3 years. All of her friends had the RR and she really wanted one because we never had one previously (I always refrained from purchasing one because I know how poorly they are build). But hey, you know the saying happy wife equals happy life, so I obliged. Probably the best riding SUV on the market today, but they cut corners in its build quality everywhere.

3 years of ownership translates into 3 sets of brake pads and 2 rotor replacements due to normal wear. No, you can't use the excuse that the car is heavy because none of my previous Porsche Cayenne Turbo S went through its brakes like that. After 3 years, my wife is now a believer, she will never go back to a Range Rover ever again.

Car has a nice interior, but many parts used on the car were just garbage. Air suspension were replaced under warranty due to leak and the alternator failed on the car after 2 years.

RR are great looking cars that has a good presence. Between this and the Escalade, it is THE suburban housewife car. BUT for those who are in the know, the RR is for people who doesn't know anything about cars, and they can't quite step it up to the next level (eg. Bentley Bentayga, Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, RR Cullinan).

Ultimately, the Range Rover needs to be a 160K car and the Autogbiography needs to be a 200K car with better quality materials used and proper engineering behind it. In my opinion, trying to cater the car for the masses at 100-120k is like claiming you are selling 3-star Michelin grade food at $100/person, nothing is free in life.
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      12-06-2019, 12:15 PM   #8
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Why can't the RR be a $120K car with better quality? BMW seems to be doing that well. Why should RR cost more than BMW? Do you think the ride quality or other things require it to be more expensive?
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      12-06-2019, 01:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Why can't the RR be a $120K car with better quality? BMW seems to be doing that well. Why should RR cost more than BMW? Do you think the ride quality or other things require it to be more expensive?
I dont get this either. I consider them in the same class along with Merc, Audi etc. They have been dominating the luxury SUV market for decades as this has been their niche. But they need to wake up as there is intense competition now in this segment with SUVs that drive and look great from many other brands.
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      12-06-2019, 01:40 PM   #10
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First of all, the Range Rover has off road capabilities that the BMW can't match. So in order for the BMW to match that, then the X7 base price will need to increase significantly while keeping the other stuff that it does do well remaining at the same level (eg. interior material quality, fit and finish).

Conversely, the Range Rover needs to upgrade a bunch of its internal components to increase reliability and durability. Take the braking system for example on the Range Rover, it's effective but it's not really durable. What it comes down to is that it needs better cooling and much bigger rotors and brake calipers/more pistons to increase its durability. Air suspension is also another RR's weakness in terms of quality. This is why I said in order for a Range Rover to have proper reliability and durability, they either need to up their MSRP and invest the extra $$$ in R&D and upgraded components OR just offer less off-road capabilities/amenities and divert that extra $$ to better existing components.

The best example I could give you is Porsche vs. BMW/Mercedes. On paper, BMW/Mercedes offers more power, more amenities and more bang for your buck compared to a Porsche equivalent. Have you ever tracked a BMW M model? If so, you will find out first-hand at how garbage the BMW M brakes are on track. While the brakes of a BMW are great on the road, they warp and overheat on track in no time. Porsche brakes last forever because they always over-engineer them and they test them hard on the track. Porsche uses premium materials and they have brilliant engineers working for them. BMW is a big company, but they don't have the know how's in that department.


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Why can't the RR be a $120K car with better quality? BMW seems to be doing that well. Why should RR cost more than BMW? Do you think the ride quality or other things require it to be more expensive?
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      12-06-2019, 02:57 PM   #11
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I think you are contradicting yourself. On one hand, RRs should be more expensive because they have off road capabilities but on the other hand BMWs should NOT cost more because today they have more reliable internal components than RRs. I think both cars should cost relatively the same with may be an additional cost for the off road package being an expensive extra. Everyone loves to talkl about RRs off road capacity but I am yet to see a study that shows that the RR owners do take them offroad. That may be limited to countries in the Middle East. Very few people in the US seriously do that.
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      12-06-2019, 06:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BythebeachBMW View Post
From my opinion the quality was far inferior.
Are you referring to a Range Rover Sport or Evoque?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OuaAia View Post
Model proliferation went too far, and they have heavy cars which hurts when emission standards get tighter.
BMW has more models/trims than LR/RR combined. In addition the Range Rover Supercharged weighs less than the X7 40i/50i also the RRSC has a 6g larger gas tank adding to weight but still lighter. The RRSC has a 16mpg combined and the X7 50i has a 17mpg but has 73hp less than the RRSC all the while doing it through a true 4WD system not an AWD set up like xDrive. Not sure what your comments were based on because if one were concerned about true numbers or MPG the LR/RR models still offer a diesel while the BMW X7 only has a 6cyl or 8cyl which neither are frugal on fuel.
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      12-06-2019, 07:10 PM   #13
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You are not reading my post correctly.

RR needs to be more expensive because at the current cost structure, it's using cheap components and it is sacrificing reliability and durability. It's a great off-road car, but due to budget concerns, something needs to be sacrificed. That's why I said in order to be a better road car while keeping all that off-road capabilities, it probably needs to be more expensive.

X7 will be a lot more expensive than today's MSRP if it wants to match the RR's off-road capabilities. This will require additional hardware reinforcements and more components. X7 already has decent hardware as a road car, but it doesn't do the off-road stuff well. For example, look at the RR's waterproof-depth vs. the X7. How much do you think it will cost BMW to make the X7 waterproof at those additional depth like the RR?

The X7 is a very road biased vehicle and for what my wife's needs (get groceries, pick up our kids and occasionally need room for 7), it's perfect. But it can't go off-road like a RR or a G wagon.

Lastly, just because you don't need see owners taking their Range Rover off-roading here in the US doesn't mean the car is not capable of doing that. Using your analogy, the 918 Spyder must be a slow car because most US owners doesn't drive their 918 on the road at 200mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aas5 View Post
I think you are contradicting yourself. On one hand, RRs should be more expensive because they have off road capabilities but on the other hand BMWs should NOT cost more because today they have more reliable internal components than RRs. I think both cars should cost relatively the same with may be an additional cost for the off road package being an expensive extra. Everyone loves to talkl about RRs off road capacity but I am yet to see a study that shows that the RR owners do take them offroad. That may be limited to countries in the Middle East. Very few people in the US seriously do that.
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      12-06-2019, 07:18 PM   #14
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you are absolutely right about your offroad comparison but i think bmw took into consideration the percentage of drivers who will actual offroad versus percentage of softroad and on-road and decided manufacturing beyond what the x7 is at the moment would be superfluous and cost-prohibitive or at a minimum impact profitability. on the flip side the LR/RR, Gelandewagen and the Land Cruiser with it's Lexus counterpart are designed specifically for individuals and markets that will absolutely use the vehicle for what it was designed and the rest will buy just because and they price that into their r&d and final product. i don't believe the x7 was ever meant to be a true offroad suv and i dont think it will ever be more than a softroader at best but that doesn't make it inferior it is just a different product.
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      12-07-2019, 09:11 AM   #15
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BMW once owned RR before selling it to Ford. Correct me if I'm wrong! 2021 RR's are coming with BMW's 4.4L V8's.
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      12-07-2019, 01:22 PM   #16
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I agree with you 100%. The X7 is more road based than the RR/G Wagon/LX570 and that's why given what my wife uses her car for, the X7 is the perfect car for her.

Going back to the RR, there is no free lunch in this world. The RR has great on road manners, good looks, legendary off-road capabilities and still competes in the 100-120k market segment?

So what's the catch? They use inferior parts and crappy reliability. Hence, that's why I believe the RR still needs to be a more expensive car to be the complete package.


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you are absolutely right about your offroad comparison but i think bmw took into consideration the percentage of drivers who will actual offroad versus percentage of softroad and on-road and decided manufacturing beyond what the x7 is at the moment would be superfluous and cost-prohibitive or at a minimum impact profitability. on the flip side the LR/RR, Gelandewagen and the Land Cruiser with it's Lexus counterpart are designed specifically for individuals and markets that will absolutely use the vehicle for what it was designed and the rest will buy just because and they price that into their r&d and final product. i don't believe the x7 was ever meant to be a true offroad suv and i dont think it will ever be more than a softroader at best but that doesn't make it inferior it is just a different product.
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      12-07-2019, 01:22 PM   #17
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Tata owns Land Rover and Jaguar now.

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BMW once owned RR before selling it to Ford. Correct me if I'm wrong! 2021 RR's are coming with BMW's 4.4L V8's.
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      12-07-2019, 01:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Tata owns Land Rover and Jaguar now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vink View Post
BMW once owned RR before selling it to Ford. Correct me if I'm wrong! 2021 RR's are coming with BMW's 4.4L V8's.
Yes... from BMW to Ford to TATA...
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      12-07-2019, 03:06 PM   #19
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Ultimately LR will need to make the Range Rover more road oriented OR make a more road oriented version
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      12-07-2019, 03:11 PM   #20
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Ultimately LR will need to make the Range Rover more road oriented OR make a more road oriented version
I don’t think they need to do that. They just need to make their product more reliable, increase their dealership footprint, improve tech so it actually works and not just look pretty.
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      12-07-2019, 03:22 PM   #21
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I don’t think they need to do that. They just need to make their product more reliable, increase their dealership footprint, improve tech so it actually works and not just look pretty.
don’t see them producing a reliable vehicle, ever, short of them aligning with a strategic partner that excels at that or at least doesn’t suck at it
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      12-07-2019, 09:56 PM   #22
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Funny you should mention RR aligning with a strategic partner, check this out:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-for-partners
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