First tuned M3 - Burger Motorsports hits 480whp

[GOLFFRR]

interested to see how all this tune stuff shakes out

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

doubtful. 5th is 1:1 iirc. I dyno'd my old e9x in 4th and 5th and it didn't make much of a difference in power on the dyno. IIRC the torque was a touch higher in 5th but it was negligible. to be fair, im no expert.

To answer some other comments, the e9x typically is between 335-360whp on a dynojet in stock form (not gonna count EAS's "magic" dyno that reads way too high).

Also, thrilled with stock power. That said, the tune is impressive but looks like small timing drop / correction right before 3000 RPM. clearly a first pass tune, but that would be unacceptable on my car

agreed - that's what I suspected. the salient point of this dyno chart, in my mind, is definitely that the stock S55 puts out huge power and is way underrated.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

doubtful. 5th is 1:1 iirc. I dyno'd my old e9x in 4th and 5th and it didn't make much of a difference in power on the dyno. IIRC the torque was a touch higher in 5th but it was negligible. to be fair, im no expert.

To answer some other comments, the e9x typically is between 335-360whp on a dynojet in stock form (not gonna count EAS's "magic" dyno that reads way too high).

Also, thrilled with stock power. That said, the tune is impressive but looks like small timing drop / correction right before 3000 RPM. clearly a first pass tune, but that would be unacceptable on my car

Specialty Z reads as high or higher than EAS. Just ask the people who have dyno'd both like DJSJ5 and xtyper.

[JoeFromPA]

I'm sorry, but what? His first day with the car he was able to begin manipulating boost levels without the car throwing problems at him? I'm surprised.

But, more importantly, 427whp on the BASELINE? Terry's dyno has been historically a solid dyno IIRC (neither low nor super high).

That's a ridiculous result if so. Wow.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by A418t81

He is basing it on the amount of flow the turbos are supposed to have, boost pressure the engine runs, and timing he is seeing. This in conjunction to RB turbos which are sort of the industry standard on the N54. Terry is very, very, very knowledgeable about anything that BMW has turbocharged.

Also, I'm amused that you think piggybacks still work that way. The days of map clamping and map sensor attenuation are LONG gone. Terry developed hardware and software that directly controls the electronic wastegate actuators themselves...no easy feat.

The BMS on the F10 M5 does nothing more than manipulate MAP sensor signals. And I know that AC Schnitzer for instance has far more advanced piggybacks than that. Those are also CAN compatible.

Please read this thread on the F10 M5 piggyback and Mike@N54tuning's replies and info on M5 piggyback tuning...

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=977822

Or the installation manual for the N63/S63 BMS piggyback:

http://www.burgertuning.com/instruct...e1_install.pdf

It's ONLY MAP sensors that is connected to the piggyback...

Still amused?

[JoeFromPA]

Also, compared to the N54/N55 which shows alot of variation in it's dyno, he added 5.5 pounds of boost and the dyno is reading very consistent across the entire range.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by JRV

And it's stock 427 at the wheels? Meanwhile the SportAuto was 465 crank and supposedly showing 380 peak at the wheels? Too much spread don't you guys think?

The MAHA dyno and a Dynojet RWHP can't be compared at all. See the other thread on the Sport Auto Supertest dyno results for more detailed info on differences between dynos

[AWTT335i]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The BMS on the F10 M5 does nothing more than manipulate MAP sensor signals. And I know that AC Schnitzer for instance has far more advanced piggybacks than that. Those are also CAN compatible.

Please read this thread on the F10 M5 piggyback and Mike@N54tuning's replies and info on M5 piggyback tuning...

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=977822

Or the installation manual for the N63/S63 BMS piggyback:

http://www.burgertuning.com/instruct...e1_install.pdf

It's ONLY MAP sensors that is connected to the piggyback...

Still amused?

Just MAP sensors huh? Did you notice the AFR on this particular dyno?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The MAHA dyno and a Dynojet RWHP can't be compared at all. See the other thread on the Sport Auto Supertest dyno results for more detailed info on differences between dynos

Yes i remember that thread. I got you about the comparing dynos but you have to admit something is not right here. He is disappointed about 427 stock to the wheels?? I will just sit back and wait to let things air out. What forum did this come from?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by AWTT335i

Just MAP sensors huh? Did you notice the AFR on this particular dyno?

Although I certainly don't know what spec piggyback he uses on the S55 engine, the N63/S63 does indeed only alter the MAP signals.

I notice a drop in AFR at around 2600rpm together with a drop in power at the same rpm. Apart from that the AFR looks fine I guess. The DME still has a MAF sensor telling it how much air enters the engine as well as a lot of other sensors that it can rely on to adjust fuelling to still get a good AFR.

Here is a dyno (found on the BMS website) of a N63 550i. This has a piggyback that ONLY alters MAP signals. Look at the AFR

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The BMS on the F10 M5 does nothing more than manipulate MAP sensor signals. And I know that AC Schnitzer for instance has far more advanced piggybacks than that. Those are also CAN compatible.

Please read this thread on the F10 M5 piggyback and Mike@N54tuning's replies and info on M5 piggyback tuning...

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=977822

Or the installation manual for the N63/S63 BMS piggyback:

http://www.burgertuning.com/instruct...e1_install.pdf

It's ONLY MAP sensors that is connected to the piggyback...

Still amused?

Yes. You don't know much of the 6 cylinder turbo market. The S63 market and design is not at all representative. We have had CAN and dash integration for years. Nothing the slightest bit new there. Auto-tuning maps with full CAN data streaming and the whole deal. The N/S63 is too low volume and utilizes an entirely different strategy than the 6 cylinder cars. Terry has already said that he isn't going to build a CAN setup with such low volumes of cars that would be tuned given his time constraints and ROI. The turbo V8s also do not use the electronic wastegate actuators like the new 4, and 6 cylinders.

[AWTT335i]

Originally Posted by JRV

Yes i remember that thread. I got you about the comparing dynos but you have to admit something is not right here. He is disappointed about 427 stock to the wheels?? I will just sit back and wait to let things air out. What forum did this come from?

He was not saying he was disappointed in the power output stock, rather he was disappointed in the numbers given how aggressive the turbos are already being pushed. We are used to seeing quite a bit more power on the N54 with a similar boost and timing curve on RB turbos (which are quite similar to the factory S55 turbos).

Forum Member:
Disappointed it's putting Down the advertised crank hp at the wheels? Or does your dyno read high and that's why you expected more?

Burger Motorsports: Disappointed 20psi on this "higher flowing" motor, with 8+ degrees of advance, produces so much less than say RB or Vargas hybrid turbos. But it is what it is. Hitting ~480rw tuned cheered me up a bit.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Yes. You don't know much of the 6 cylinder turbo market. The S63 market and design is not at all representative. We have had CAN and dash integration for years. Nothing the slightest bit new there. Auto-tuning maps with full CAN data streaming and the whole deal. The N/S63 is too low volume and utilizes an entirely different strategy than the 6 cylinder cars. Terry has already said that he isn't going to build a CAN setup with such low volumes of cars that would be tuned given his time constraints and ROI. The turbo V8s also do not use the electronic wastegate actuators like the new 4, and 6 cylinders.

Ok, how do you know what I know about the 6 cylinder market? As I said I do know a bit about the ACS line of tuning products that are far more advanced (and CAN compatible) than the BMS for the N63/S63.

Thing is, no one has a CAN compatible piggyback for the S63 in the M5. Not even ACS...

This is a new M engine and I assumed that the same issues the tuners have had with the S63 DME also would be present in the S55. Hence why I thought they had used the simpler piggyback here as well (especially considering the time frame here that allows for very little R&D).

My last reply was in response to your comment on how it was LONG since MAP manipulation was the way Piggybacks operated... They still do in some applications

It might very well be the more advanced line of piggybacks that is used here. As you have access to that forum, why don't you ask him so we can get it straight from the horses mouth

[FogCityM3]

Holy Cow!

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by CSanto

This is a piggy back tune I'm assuming.

Get use to piggyback only.

This ecu will not be cracked for a long long time. Dinan is now making piggy backs because of how difficult BMW ecu's have become to crack.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The BMS on the F10 M5 does nothing more than manipulate MAP sensor signals. And I know that AC Schnitzer for instance has far more advanced piggybacks than that. Those are also CAN compatible.

Have you seen Dinan's new piggybacks for the M5 and N55 vehicles?

[Sal@AUTOcouture]

And it begins! :thumbsp:

[AreOut]

judging by acceleration videos posted on youtube this car doesn't have even close to 400 whp stock let alone 427, he has maybe got a special example or something but 427 whp equates to almost 500 on crank which would mean there is a significant difference in acceleration between F80 and E90(if you consider weight - even more) but that simply doesn't happen

[JRV]

Originally Posted by AWTT335i

He was not saying he was disappointed in the power output stock, rather he was disappointed in the numbers given how aggressive the turbos are already being pushed. We are used to seeing quite a bit more power on the N54 with a similar boost and timing curve on RB turbos (which are quite similar to the factory S55 turbos).

Interesting...well I guess having 2 really small turbos doesn't help. 480 whp on day 1 is not bad.

[Myrder]

The dyno he used is the same dyno he used on all the other tuning platforms he has done. Stock N54's do 270-280rwhp on that dyno. FBO N54's do 450-470rwhp on that dyno. It's a consistent dyno. I for one am stoked by these baseline tune numbers and can't wait for it to have e85 mixed in. These 430rwhp fall in line with 118mph trap speeds, so I don't see what is so surprising.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by AreOut

judging by acceleration videos posted on youtube this car doesn't have even close to 400 whp stock let alone 427, he has maybe got a special example or something but 427 whp equates to almost 500 on crank which would mean there is a significant difference in acceleration between F80 and E90(if you consider weight - even more) but that simply doesn't happen

I would put drivetrain loss no more than 12%.

Looking at about 478 hp. In line with SportAuto 465 hp, dynojet always reads higher.

[Sean@PSI]

Awesome, more power already!!