Dinan vs. Procede?

[w1LL]

either way, you will either pay the cost in losing a warranty or having more power... honestly... i can live without the extra power if i know my car will take the changes from the dinan software much easier...
FI is a slippery slope, and it seems every car reacts differently... i'd just hate to be that guy who gets a slap in the face for being that young guy who chose power over practicality

[sadu77]

Originally Posted by Esmallstii

Good Poll!
Love the Dinan Warranty,.
One thing that should be considered is the cost?
(Also,..Im sure the people whose warranties got voided forgot to remove the Procede before they took it in for service,..otherwise,..it leaves no trace.?)

$1295 Vishnu PROcede

$1999 Dinan

Dinan=$700 more (Thats alot)

Does this change anyones mind?

No. The warranty is important.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by Esmallstii

Good Poll!
Love the Dinan Warranty,.
One thing that should be considered is the cost?
(Also,..Im sure the people whose warranties got voided forgot to remove the Procede before they took it in for service,..otherwise,..it leaves no trace.?)

$1295 Vishnu PROcede

$1999 Dinan

Dinan=$700 more (Thats alot)

Does this change anyones mind?

??
You don't get "limp modes" with a Dinan tune. You don't have to load new maps for different octane and you don't have to install anything.

Why spend $1300 and have "limp modes", even one of them? You have to buy a reader and also have a laptop for Procede. Then you have to worry about if the connection will come loose, etc.

Sorry, $700 isn't that much when it comes to reliability. I've spent $200 on a bar tab! I want the N54 to work, not limp!

With other ECU flashes coming this summer there will be several choices to choose from, it seems like the only real choices are the AA piggy or the Dinan. Procede is just not stable.

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by bimmernet

From what I understand, the Vishnu system is a piggy-back, plug in module that does make any permanent mods under the hood or leave fault codes as footprints. It simply intercepts and modifies the messages from the BMW Black Box.

I'd like to know why the warranties were voided if the owners followed the instructions for stealth and removed the modules before the car was checked by a dealer.

If the Vishnu system is undetectable then I'd go that way. However, if the dealers are figuring out the car's been chipped then Hello Mr. Dinan.

Bimmernet

I asked my dealer how mod/race friendly they were. They said they have no problem with track cars. They said if i was tracking my 1 they would still replace the brakes. However, if I was going through pads every 6 months they would probably cut me off.

As far as piggy backs, they have plenty of employees that do it and they are not going to just deny warranty work. However, if I have a piggy back and come it with overheating problems, I'm on my own. I choose not to go that route, regardless of how much is is speculated it is not detectable. Nor do I feel like covering my tracks everytime I want to take it to the dealer. I don't have such concerns with Dinan.

[brakefade]

Originally Posted by bimmernet

From what I understand, the Vishnu system is a piggy-back, plug in module that does make any permanent mods under the hood or leave fault codes as footprints. It simply intercepts and modifies the messages from the BMW Black Box.

Interesting...

But that would make me a little more nervous honestly. A piggy-back makes an assumption on AFR corrections...it's a static assumption...not dynamic for actual conditions. You have to hope that the corrections are conservative enough to make sure you don't go into a too lean condition. Not the best way to go with an FI car.

Plus I think the ecu would still record the overboost and that would be found by the dealer if they pull the data.

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by brakefade

Plus I think the ecu would still record the overboost and that would be found by the dealer if they pull the data.

In a previous thread on this topic over at E90post, this suspicion was confirmed by a BMW tech that posts here as well. The ECU does store boost pressures, and it will see and record the higher boost numbers. The Procede is not invisible, even after uninstall.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by brakefade

Interesting...

But that would make me a little more nervous honestly. A piggy-back makes an assumption on AFR corrections...it's a static assumption...not dynamic for actual conditions. You have to hope that the corrections are conservative enough to make sure you don't go into a too lean condition. Not the best way to go with an FI car.

Plus I think the ecu would still record the overboost and that would be found by the dealer if they pull the data.

This ECU is so good at adapting dynmically that it's actually pretty safe. I'd wait for v2.1 of procede though. It seems some people with earlier versions had some pretty serious problems with boost regulation. 20+ psi spikes.

Honestly, procede has had enough problems that it wouldn't be my first choice, especially for $$ that approaches Dinan.

[SirMattieP]

What about Active Autowerke i never hear anybody talking about their EM product, especially that they focus in BMW.

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by SirMattieP

What about Active Autowerke i never hear anybody talking about their EM product, especially that they focus in BMW.

Exactly. To me it's AA or Dinan. I don't know why Vishnu get's so much press and AA none. Vishnu comes from Subarus and Active has a been a BMW tuner for a long time. They had a product out at the same time and there are a couple of advantages over Proceed.

All you here about is Procede yet little history with BMW, questionable customer service, and arguably a little hot with their tunes. :iono:

[stefan]

My SA was all about Dinan.. He was telling me all about it during the test drive, and it seems like my local dealership is big on it. That counts for something.

[SirMattieP]

So since AA is a big bmw tuner company... Do you think that means it may still be fine under warranty, like Dinan? maybe?

[Jockey]

Dinan is the only one I've heard of with the warranty

[AJN334]

Active FTW.

[BMWeber]

if I was considering the DINAN flash I'd probably get the SSTT it produces only a little less power, is very reliable, plug and play and cost about 1/4 the DINAN. but I want big power so it will be PROcede, AA, or helix.

[ScottyGams]

take note... dealerships still cannot detect procede if uninstalled correctly. if you blow the engine, the dealership must prove it was your modification that did it. Kind of hard to do with no trace of a modification

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by ScottyGams

take note... dealerships still cannot detect procede if uninstalled correctly. if you blow the engine, the dealership must prove it was your modification that did it. Kind of hard to do with no trace of a modification

Again, this is wrong.

The OP to the thread below has his warranty voided because he forgot to connect a vacuum tube.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ocede+warranty

However, you will also find in this thread mention that the ECU does in fact store boost pressures. This information is not intercepted by the Procede, and the ECU records these overboost pressures, which the dealer can see during diagnostic runs.

Secondly, besides this, service techs are getting very good at spotting evidence of tampering with the ECU, whether this consists of scratching on the screws securing the paneling or ECU box, electrical tape residue, or anything else that appears out of place. The point is, you must cover your tracks very well if you really don't want to leave any physical evidence behind, and doing this several times over the life of the warranty can be a huge PITA.

Finally, as mentioned in several threads (read your buyers agreement) ANY modification outside of factory specs can void the warranty whether or not it causes damage to the car. If the manufactuer specifies this, then Magnuson-Moss does not protect you, it protects BMW. Your individual dealers will probably look past many mods, but this clause is still in your buyers aggreement.

[ScottyGams]

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

Again, this is wrong.

The OP to the thread below has his warranty voided because he forgot to connect a vacuum tube.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ocede+warranty

However, you will also find in this thread mention that the ECU does in fact store boost pressures. This information is not intercepted by the Procede, and the ECU records these overboost pressures, which the dealer can see during diagnostic runs.

Secondly, besides this, service techs are getting very good at spotting evidence of tampering with the ECU, whether this consists of scratching on the screws securing the paneling or ECU box, electrical tape residue, or anything else that appears out of place. The point is, you must cover your tracks very well if you really don't want to leave any physical evidence behind, and doing this several times over the life of the warranty can be a huge PITA.

Finally, as mentioned in several threads (read your buyers agreement) ANY modification outside of factory specs can void the warranty whether or not it causes damage to the car. If the manufactuer specifies this, then Magnuson-Moss does not protect you, it protects BMW. Your individual dealers will probably look past many mods, but this clause is still in your buyers aggreement.

I get what you are saying, and I agree for the most part, but that does not make me the "again this is wrong" guy haha. If uninstalled correctly, it really is indistinguishable from a tech working on your car to hook up the M.O.S.T computer for ECU checks.

Legally speaking, which is more important, BMW can put in all the waivers they want. You can take them to court, and the Mag Moss act will get upheld in protection of the consumer. I know of 2 cases against toyota that i watched battled out. In one, Toyota settled and replaced the engine on a Greddy turbocharger blowing the engine on WAY too much boost. The other one, Toyota lost and had to give the value of a new car (too much heat in cat converter, not boost related, but it is still the company losing). If I have a waiver that says I am not held responsible for you leaving my house drunk, and you drink and drive and get hurt, I'm still getting sued. You cannot trump the law. That coupled with the fact that companies hate horrible PR attached to legal battles = settling for replacement. I hate that whole argument of BMW has more money than you. They will win. Extended Trials+Bad PR+Lawyer Fees are more expensive than an engine. All BMW will care about is their bottom line if fought long enough.

I read the thread you linked to, and the guy did mess up on the uninstall, and every member agrees that his warrenty cannot just be VOIDED. BMW needs to show how the lack of a proven part caused the engine to fail. He messed up by not putting everything back together (hoses in this case).

You do bring up something I have not heard of before from my readings on E90post. What is this you say about the ECU remembers boost pressure. I thought the whole idea of Vishnu is that it edits the readings of the sensors to make the ECU react. How can it store anything if it does not think anything is wrong? I am not challenging you validity or anything, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction with a thread link, because that is very disturbing. Thanks in advance.

I am not fighting or anything, I just want to give other readers the info so they can make their own decision. I will admit, it is rough have aftermarket piggybacks and a blown engine. To casual tuners, I would suggest listening to "Yearofthe1" Even though the chances of something going wrong on the stock map are slim, and you can proably wiggle your way out of legal trouble. Do you want to go through the headache on any aftermarket product?

For me, Juicebox looked too sketchy. Vishnu seems to have a viable product with a good reputation. Dinan is good stuff too, just $700 more than my budget allows. Maybe if what I here is true, it may be $700 well spent!

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by ScottyGams

take note... dealerships still cannot detect procede if uninstalled correctly. if you blow the engine, the dealership must prove it was your modification that did it. Kind of hard to do with no trace of a modification

Lets just say multiple accounts of warranties being voided due to procede.

Dinan x35i software: zero

[ScottyGams]

Originally Posted by slickone

Lets just say multiple accounts of warranties being voided due to procede.

Dinan x35i software: zero

ok, good deal... i have heard of a couple. I wonder how many Procede are sold to each dinan upgrade however, and if the users decided to custom make their own maps.

Let me cut straight to the point in my motivation for speaking up at all. I am noticing that the 1addicts board has a lot of first time BMW buyers, and a lot of first time modifiers. I do not mind the Pro-Dinan rallying cry at all. I just want to make sure we do not scare people out of aftermarket solutions for the car. The more product selection we have the better. The more tuners we have, the more products will be available to satiate their need for more power. I believe the 1 could be the big tuner market car for BMW. I want to make sure in this early stage we do not start slamming products before they are installed on cars.

Maybe because I know a guy that has Procede (3 series) that goes to my dealer. It is an awesome product, and the power delivery is not jerky. It feels OEM, just better. He takes it off at his yearly service, and no one is the wiser.

Anyway, I think both you and 'YearOneofthe1' have convinced me to pony up the extra $$$, but please don't label the Procede as a faulty product in any way. It is an AWESOME product in its own right.

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by ScottyGams

ok, good deal... i have heard of a couple. I wonder how many Procede are sold to each dinan upgrade however, and if the users decided to custom make their own maps.

Let me cut straight to the point in my motivation for speaking up at all. I am noticing that the 1addicts board has a lot of first time BMW buyers, and a lot of first time modifiers. I do not mind the Pro-Dinan rallying cry at all. I just want to make sure we do not scare people out of aftermarket solutions for the car. The more product selection we have the better. The more tuners we have, the more products will be available to satiate their need for more power. I believe the 1 could be the big tuner market car for BMW. I want to make sure in this early stage we do not start slamming products before they are installed on cars.

Maybe because I know a guy that has Procede (3 series) that goes to my dealer. It is an awesome product, and the power delivery is not jerky. It feels OEM, just better. He takes it off at his yearly service, and no one is the wiser.

Anyway, I think both you and 'YearOneofthe1' have convinced me to pony up the extra $$$, but please don't label the Procede as a faulty product in any way. It is an AWESOME product in its own right.

I actually have nothing against the Procede as a tuning product, and I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a good tune. It is a great tune! But we were comparing Dinan and Procede, and I offered what I know about the two. I'm just cautious of all the probs I've seen over at E90post. I'm pretty sure the limp mode issues had more to do with the fact that most of those cars did not have a factory oil cooler (not the case with our 1er ;-). Vishnu does have a lot of experience tuning engines, but got into BMW engines recently. Dinan is exclusively a BMW tuner, and has been for many years. The real ingenuity has to go to the Dinan tune. Vishnu changes only three parameters, while leaving the rest of the engine management to the ECU. But this produces conditions that the factory software may not necessarily have protections for (overboost, running the turbos faster than their design limitations, overheating, etc.); the Dinan tune acknowledges and addresses these issues. I feel the extra $700 is well worth the peace-of-mind, not just for the warranty, but for the built-in protections as well.

As to the post I've seen about the ECU storing the boost levels, this will take some searching, as it's buried in the threads over at E90post somewhere. I came across this over three months ago.

[ScottyGams]

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

I actually have nothing against the Procede as a tuning product, and I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a good tune. It is a great tune! But we were comparing Dinan and Procede, and I offered what I know about the two. I'm just cautious of all the probs I've seen over at E90post. I'm pretty sure the limp mode issues had more to do with the fact that most of those cars did not have a factory oil cooler (not the case with our 1er ;-). Vishnu does have a lot of experience tuning engines, but got into BMW engines recently. Dinan is exclusively a BMW tuner, and has been for many years. The real ingenuity has to go to the Dinan tune. Vishnu changes only three parameters, while leaving the rest of the engine management to the ECU. But this produces conditions that the factory software may not necessarily have protections for (overboost, running the turbos faster than their design limitations, overheating, etc.); the Dinan tune acknowledges and addresses these issues. I feel the extra $700 is well worth the peace-of-mind, not just for the warranty, but for the built-in protections as well.

:thumbup:that's how you sold me personally:thumbup:

just don't want a bash fest BEFORE people put it on their cars!

[E82tt6]

I'm pretty darn sure that was related to reflashes (like Dinan). The ECU will know if you reflashed. I think it was basically warning Dinan users not to go to a non-Dinan dealer, otherwise there could be warranty hassles.

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

I actually have nothing against the Procede as a tuning product, and I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a good tune. It is a great tune! But we were comparing Dinan and Procede, and I offered what I know about the two. I'm just cautious of all the probs I've seen over at E90post. I'm pretty sure the limp mode issues had more to do with the fact that most of those cars did not have a factory oil cooler (not the case with our 1er ;-). Vishnu does have a lot of experience tuning engines, but got into BMW engines recently. Dinan is exclusively a BMW tuner, and has been for many years. The real ingenuity has to go to the Dinan tune. Vishnu changes only three parameters, while leaving the rest of the engine management to the ECU. But this produces conditions that the factory software may not necessarily have protections for (overboost, running the turbos faster than their design limitations, overheating, etc.); the Dinan tune acknowledges and addresses these issues. I feel the extra $700 is well worth the peace-of-mind, not just for the warranty, but for the built-in protections as well.

As to the post I've seen about the ECU storing the boost levels, this will take some searching, as it's buried in the threads over at E90post somewhere. I came across this over three months ago.