[jofbay]

I am curious to know what you all think of the Grand Highlander?

It's new for 2024 and has many of the same features as the X7. Surely it doesn't capture all of the same luxury and performance as the X7 but it's at least 85% for 50% of the cost.

Would any of you consider moving from the X7 to the highlander?
What if you have the M50i, M60i or even Xb7, could you go to a 4 cylinder SUV?

Just curious to get some thoughts on X7 versus Grand Highlander (or Toyota Grand Highlander Hybrid MAX)

[Caveno]

To say the Grand Highlander is 80% of the X7 is an exaggeration. It has a small 4cyl engine and drives, looks, and feels nothing like an X7. It’s a great car however, but I don’t think anyone who owns an X7 would consider it close to equal.

[cochese]

We were looking at the Lexus TX before we got our X7. It was (and might still be) impossible to get one of the nicer versions, and we could get an X7 quickly so we did.

Our XC90 was self destructing so we didn’t have time to wait. Happy with our X7 though.

[chicagox7]

Wonder how different it is in drive and quality from the regular Highlander. Also wonder if Toyotas are still demanding’msrp premiums.

I’ve rented the regular a few times and it’s adequate, though the X7 is materially better in my mind (comfort/drive). That said- we would have seriously considered the grand Highlander had it been available when we needed a new car. Our search actually started with the sequoia- though the 20k over msrp turned us away (among other issues/things not to our taste). It also put the price close enough to the X7 and competitors that we switched our focus on those choosing the X7. (We were also close to an LX600- but the 30/40k over msrp turned us off yet again).

[jofbay]

Originally Posted by cochese

We were looking at the Lexus TX before we got our X7. It was (and might still be) impossible to get one of the nicer versions, and we could get an X7 quickly so we did.

Our XC90 was self destructing so we didn’t have time to wait. Happy with our X7 though.

Good point, while the Lexus TX and the Grand Highlander are technically the same car, the Lexus TX makes a better comparison to the X7

[blutob2]

Originally Posted by jofbay

Good point, while the Lexus TX and the Grand Highlander are technically the same car, the Lexus TX makes a better comparison to the X7

We looked at the TX as well but yeah just can't find the 500 or 550. However, we're more interested in the new GX550 Luxury+, when that comes out. Hoping to see one at our car show here in a couple weeks.

We do love our X7, just concerned with reliability since we drive lots of miles.

[jofbay]

Originally Posted by blutob2

We do love our X7, just concerned with reliability since we drive lots of miles.

Same thing that has me concerned. So far out of 2 months of owning an X7 I have had it in my garage 3 days... that's it LOL

Starting to wonder if this is just what it's like owning an X7

[Bimmerfun82]

GH is 50% of the X7 across the parameters that make the X7 a purchase for us. Wouldn’t consider it. The LX Lexus maybe of all the options from Toyota.

You are basically asking us “why spend $100k when you can spend $50k?” It is a ridiculous comparison and feels like a marketing inquiry.

We’ve had 0 problems with our X7 over 7k miles. Sorry you’ve had issues.

[jofbay]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

GH is 50% of the X7 across the parameters that make the X7 a purchase for us. Wouldn’t consider it. The LX Lexus maybe of all the options from Toyota.

You are basically asking us “why spend $100k when you can spend $50k?” It is a ridiculous comparison and feels like a marketing inquiry.

We’ve had 0 problems with our X7 over 7k miles. Sorry you’ve had issues.

I knew when I was trying to think of a percentage that regardless of what number I picked that someone would take issue with it. I left in the percentage because I figured it would trigger some conversation around the topic and I do think it's an interesting topic. However, I assure you I am not some Toyota secret marketer. I love the X7 and waited a very long time to be able to afford one. I do get a little discouraged though hearing that the V8 in this thing won't do over 100K. I have had so many cars that last 250K+

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by jofbay

I knew when I was trying to think of a percentage that regardless of what number I picked that someone would take issue with it. I left in the percentage because I figured it would trigger some conversation around the topic and I do think it's an interesting topic. However, I assure you I am not some Toyota secret marketer. I love the X7 and waited a very long time to be able to afford one. I do get a little discouraged though hearing that the V8 in this thing won't do over 100K. I have had so many cars that last 250K+

Willkommen bei den deutschen Automobilherstellern!

It will last 250k+, it will just cost you the price of another X7.

Here’s the successful approach: drive it 50k miles and exchange for another one. It’s the only way.

Otherwise buy a Lexus.

[MC113]

Originally Posted by jofbay

I knew when I was trying to think of a percentage that regardless of what number I picked that someone would take issue with it. I left in the percentage because I figured it would trigger some conversation around the topic and I do think it's an interesting topic. However, I assure you I am not some Toyota secret marketer. I love the X7 and waited a very long time to be able to afford one. I do get a little discouraged though hearing that the V8 in this thing won't do over 100K. I have had so many cars that last 250K+

Reading this made me LOL because my partner is a market researcher for a (non-BMW) German luxury auto brand.

I have a ‘24 X5 M60i and someone on the X5 forums recently asked for thoughts on a Mazda comparison that left me similarly scratching my head. I’m just curious - not from a place of judgement - what is it exactly you’re trying to learn from your question?

The reason why professional automotive reviewers cluster vehicles into classes for comparison is to try to make real-world cross shopping more straightforward between similar vehicles. If you’re genuinely cross shopping or considering a flagship product from a premium-to-luxury brand (BMW X7) with an economy product - you’re kind of outside the bounds of meaningful comparison, right? If you personally need a bulletproof, million mile SUV that’s more comparable to an X7 I’d say check out a Lexus LX600?

This is like asking diners at a Mexican Michelin star restaurant what they think of eating at a Chipotle because they both offer Mexican food. The X7 and the Grand Highlander are both three row SUVs. Yes…and?

Virtually every consumer product purchasing decision comes down to financial, cultural, social, psychological variables. Your subjective judgments of things like the product’s quality, personal values, budgetary limitations and preferences etc. are going to dictate your purchasing decisions. Anyone who can afford a given premium or certainly luxury product can theoretically afford to purchase a mainstream economy product. A Mercedes S Class owner could purchase a Toyota Crown, a person buying a Chanel handbag could purchase a handbag from Coach, a person buying a luxury apartment could get a rent controlled economy apartment. These aren’t meaningfully similar or comparable products or services as - if they were - we’d basically only have economy products and veblen goods in the market.

[jofbay]

Originally Posted by MC113

Reading this made me LOL because my partner is a market researcher for a (non-BMW) German luxury auto brand.

I have a ‘24 X5 M60i and someone on the X5 forums recently asked for thoughts on a Mazda comparison that left me similarly scratching my head. I’m just curious - not from a place of judgement - what is it exactly you’re trying to learn from your question?

The reason why professional automotive reviewers cluster vehicles into classes for comparison is to try to make real-world cross shopping more straightforward between similar vehicles. If you’re genuinely cross shopping or considering a flagship product from a premium-to-luxury brand (BMW X7) with an economy product - you’re kind of outside the bounds of meaningful comparison, right? If you personally need a bulletproof, million mile SUV that’s more comparable to an X7 I’d say check out a Lexus LX600?

This is like asking diners at a Mexican Michelin star restaurant what they think of eating at a Chipotle because they both offer Mexican food. The X7 and the Grand Highlander are both three row SUVs. Yes…and?

Virtually every consumer product purchasing decision comes down to financial, cultural, social, psychological variables. Your subjective judgments of things like the product’s quality, personal values, budgetary limitations and preferences etc. are going to dictate your purchasing decisions. Anyone who can afford a given premium or certainly luxury product can theoretically afford to purchase a mainstream economy product. A Mercedes S Class owner could purchase a Toyota Crown, a person buying a Chanel handbag could purchase a handbag from Coach, a person buying a luxury apartment could get a rent controlled economy apartment. These aren’t meaningfully similar or comparable products or services as - if they were - we’d basically only have economy products and veblen goods in the market.

What I'm hoping to learn? Exactly the kind of thought process that you just shared over the topic. Really enjoyed reading your perspectives. Thanks for sharing.

It occurs to me that the concept of diminishing returns does apply here.
Assuming any cheaper product functionally is 80% of a more premium product, you almost always pay a lot to squeeze that last 20% of benefit out of something. I don't care if it's computer hardware, bicycle parts or cars. It always seems to work that way. I realize I could Trade my 2021 X7 in and get enough for a brand new TX 500h or MDX Type S
But what exactly will I give up for that and what will I gain. It's an interesting thought. I really do just love the 2021 X7 at the moment. Maybe with some luck someday it will be out of the shop and in my garage.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by jofbay

What I'm hoping to learn? Exactly the kind of thought process that you just shared over the topic. Really enjoyed reading your perspectives. Thanks for sharing.

It occurs to me that the concept of diminishing returns does apply here.
Assuming any cheaper product functionally is 80% of a more premium product, you almost always pay a lot to squeeze that last 20% of benefit out of something. I don't care if it's computer hardware, bicycle parts or cars. It always seems to work that way. I realize I could Trade my 2021 X7 in and get enough for a brand new TX 500h or MDX Type S
But what exactly will I give up for that and what will I gain. It's an interesting thought. I really do just love the 2021 X7 at the moment. Maybe with some luck someday it will be out of the shop and in my garage.

1) you’re still dinging the X7 for reliability while not saying what happened to yours…. Not that you have to, but if I bought a car and experienced such frustrating problems, I would be looking at another brand as well.

2) Mercedes and BMW and Audi and to some extent Lexus are at the edge of the premium luxury segment where you usually get what you pay for. Above that and you’re paying for a bit more performance and/or luxury with a significant amount for brand perception or status symbols. These German brands generate about 10% operating profit - and of course it’s probably a bit higher on an X7 or GLS than a 2 series. But safety, quality, comfort, and luxury features are a class above a Toyota or Mazda.

3) you need to compare apples-to-apples for size and features. The GLS, suburban high country, and Escalade etc are closer comparables to the X7 than an MDX. At least be honest about size and cargo space and engine power and towing capabilities.

At the end of the day, if you come into a BMW forum and ask “hey, why didn’t you get a Toyota” brace yourself for a worldview that doesn’t accept that logic.

[jofbay]

I agree with everything you said except for the part about the worldview in a BMW forum because I haven't give any statement about "my logic" or if I prefer a cheaper vehicle. I just came for the discussion. I fully expect people here to be very PRO BMW. I would expect nothing less. However, just to be clear I am also very pro bmw. It has so many features and luxuries that just hit the sweet spot for me. I know it's a preference but I especially enjoy the pre LCI.

With that said, the issues with my X7 are more about Fremont CA BMW than about my specific car. Those people have treated me very badly and turned a big moment in my life into a less than desirable situation. But I think the car is still great and it will eventually be in good working order.

Here are some images from it at the dealership right before I dropped it off the last time a few weeks ago. So beautiful.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by jofbay

I agree with everything you said except for the part about the worldview in a BMW forum because I haven't give any statement about "my logic" or if I prefer a cheaper vehicle. I just came for the discussion. I fully expect people here to be very PRO BMW. I would expect nothing less.

Gotcha, so the Highlander was just an example of the logic you were posing to the forum.

In general I would not consider a cheaper vehicle. Specifically the Highlander would be at the bottom of my list, since it’s the most anonymous and boring of all the midsize SUVs.

This is what happens when you downgrade: initially you’re excited to have spent less money or get money back on the trade and have a new warranty, but once the newness wears off you realize the inferior quality - driving experience, materials, features, capabilities, noise levels, etc.

[dcoopdeville]

Originally Posted by blutob2

We looked at the TX as well but yeah just can't find the 500 or 550. However, we're more interested in the new GX550 Luxury+, when that comes out. Hoping to see one at our car show here in a couple weeks.

We do love our X7, just concerned with reliability since we drive lots of miles.

This is my thinking as well. Glad someone finally said it. LOL. I think the X7 will hold up but we all know that lexus quality is proven. I was thinking of getting the GX550 as an add on to the X7 or a replacement if it breaks.

[crackerjack15]

Originally Posted by MC113

Reading this made me LOL because my partner is a market researcher for a (non-BMW) German luxury auto brand.

I have a ‘24 X5 M60i and someone on the X5 forums recently asked for thoughts on a Mazda comparison that left me similarly scratching my head. I’m just curious - not from a place of judgement - what is it exactly you’re trying to learn from your question?

The reason why professional automotive reviewers cluster vehicles into classes for comparison is to try to make real-world cross shopping more straightforward between similar vehicles. If you’re genuinely cross shopping or considering a flagship product from a premium-to-luxury brand (BMW X7) with an economy product - you’re kind of outside the bounds of meaningful comparison, right? If you personally need a bulletproof, million mile SUV that’s more comparable to an X7 I’d say check out a Lexus LX600?

This is like asking diners at a Mexican Michelin star restaurant what they think of eating at a Chipotle because they both offer Mexican food. The X7 and the Grand Highlander are both three row SUVs. Yes…and?

Virtually every consumer product purchasing decision comes down to financial, cultural, social, psychological variables. Your subjective judgments of things like the product’s quality, personal values, budgetary limitations and preferences etc. are going to dictate your purchasing decisions. Anyone who can afford a given premium or certainly luxury product can theoretically afford to purchase a mainstream economy product. A Mercedes S Class owner could purchase a Toyota Crown, a person buying a Chanel handbag could purchase a handbag from Coach, a person buying a luxury apartment could get a rent controlled economy apartment. These aren’t meaningfully similar or comparable products or services as - if they were - we’d basically only have economy products and veblen goods in the market.

Outstanding viewpoint. I think people fail to take into consideration the amount of engineering and testing that generally goes into higher end products. Also, word comparisons of features doesn't always translate into the same experience. Example... in 2014 I purchased a Toyota highlander limited. It had a "heated" steering wheel. But what they fail to tell you is only parts of it are heated not the entire wheel. Wtf. And "JBL" stereo, your thinking well it has a branded upgraded stereo which should sound good. Wrong. Junk. The car had decent "specs" but drove like a front wheel drive golf cart. It would be a nice vehicle for someone who doesn't care about driving dynamics and simply needs a decent vehicle. My mistake thinking i was getting a bargain. I traded it in on a 2015 X5. Best thing I ever did. Fast forward three X5's and three X7's later. You get the point.

[Zer00]

Originally Posted by crackerjack15

Outstanding viewpoint. I think people fail to take into consideration the amount of engineering and testing that generally goes into higher end products. Also, word comparisons of features doesn't always translate into the same experience. Example... in 2014 I purchased a Toyota highlander limited. It had a "heated" steering wheel. But what they fail to tell you is only parts of it are heated not the entire wheel. Wtf. And "JBL" stereo, your thinking well it has a branded upgraded stereo which should sound good. Wrong. Junk. The car had decent "specs" but drove like a front wheel drive golf cart. It would be a nice vehicle for someone who doesn't care about driving dynamics and simply needs a decent vehicle. My mistake thinking i was getting a bargain. I traded it in on a 2015 X5. Best thing I ever did. Fast forward three X5's and three X7's later. You get the point.

So true... I used to have a fully loaded GLC 300 and circumstances led me to get a barebones 328i for my wife. I'm a sucker for a nice interior but a drive in the 328i was all I needed to to swap cars with her. The transmission tuning in the BMW and the suspension dynamics (even on freeways) was just so much superior. I can only imagine how much worse a FWD architecture CVT would drive.

Now I get there are people for whom drivetrain refinements are not tangible (my wife for example.. she cant tell a CVT from a PDK) and then it comes down to features and yes an equivalent lexus/toyota might have all the same features and might become a consideration and thats ok. But if you love driving, then a boaty grand highlander with a 4 cylinder engine, unresponsive gearbox with a much inferior chasis is not in consideration.

[omnid00d]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

This is what happens when you downgrade: initially you’re excited to have spent less money or get money back on the trade and have a new warranty, but once the newness wears off you realize the inferior quality - driving experience, materials, features, capabilities, noise levels, etc.

I haven't seen the GH or TX but I went through the similar exercise with the MDX Type S and the RX500h before deciding on my X7 M50i and I really +1 on this comment. The RX500h dropped off pretty quickly, even compared to the MDX-S. The MDX-S maybe has like 75% of my X7 but after driving both, the differences start to come out fast. Now plenty of ppl may not notice or care much about the differences and they'll be happy as a clam with the MDX-S (I still quite like it). I'm not in that group and once I see it, I couldn't un-see it. I simply wanted the more premium experience and of course way more power and that last 20% (or whatever you want to call it) is really what you're paying for. There's obviously also a component of what the market will bear for that last 20% (which is quite a lot apparently). I wouldn't call it diminishing return, I feel like it's more so setting a higher product target across a series of metrics to push for high end user experience.

I came from an XC90 and I thought THAT was supposed to be X7 caliber but it is clearly 1 step below. Nothing wrong with that, still an excellent car that makes a lot of ppl happy. I still recommend it to ppl. I’m sure the GH/TX/MDX will make a lot of ppl extremely happy but IMO, the X7 really caters to a different crowd and there's a next-level-ness/overall package that the X7 brought to the table. But some appreciate it and some don't. Heck, I nearly pulled the trigger on the MDX-S but it was obvious it wasn’t an X7 and once I discovered CPOs going for less than the MDX-S, my mind was made up., In the end, it's different strokes for different folks.

[sharp]

I can't comment on the Grand Highlander, but I had a 2015 Highlander before the X7. It was a great car with nice interior, lots of space for a family of 4, and literally trouble free ownership experience for 8 years and 80k miles. The only maintenance I had to do is oil changes and new brake pads. Even the brake rotors were original at 80k miles and didn't need replacement. That was definitely great.

On the other hand, the Highlander had significant body roll, brakes were weak, road noise was pretty loud in the cabin, the MPG wasn't great, etc.

The X7 doesn't have any of these cons. It drives much better, doesn't roll that much, very quite and has better MPG. On top of that it has many other convenience and luxury features that I do like a lot. The time will tell how it compares reliability wise.

Would I buy a Highlander again? Yes, if I need a workhorse vehicle. No, if I want a comfort vehicle.

[itiongo]

The average consumer will not notice the higher quality of an X7 vs the Grand Highlander, if, they are driving something similar to the Grand Highlander. My wife drove a Toyota Corolla for 10+ years, then, I bought her a fully loaded Audi A6. She was very upset due to the price. She drove that for 5 years. Now she drives a BMW M550i. I kid you not... Every time my wife sits in a Toyota (her sibling's car), she complains to me about the huge differences in quality. Especially in ride quality. She will never purchase another non-luxury car again.

The Grand Highlander, paper spec-wise, will look fantastic for the price when compared to a base model X7. It comes with a lot of options that the average consumer will take as the same. I can see why the OP says the Grand Highlander is 80% of the X7. The average consumer just doesn't realize the big difference in quality for the same options. It's similar to buying a knock off.

[bradythedog12]

I. pretty sure the average consumer would probably not consider a BMW, let alone an X7. Those of us that are fortunate enough to drive a BMW/X7 are not your average consumers.