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      12-15-2014, 02:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul
IMHO way too polished to be a mule. Could be a side project car that has no production intent. Also very strange this would be driven on the street in this form- usually these are trailered to the test track -

Dunno but obviously BMW wanted us to speculate because these types of shots are more often then not staged (imagine that).
Photos do look that way,,,
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      12-15-2014, 02:11 PM   #90
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Looks bloody awful. Reminds me of the old ugly compact series.
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      12-15-2014, 02:13 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I have a hard time believing it is the M2. Why would BMW go such great lengths and cost to lower the roofline on the M2 over the base cars. So many components need to be changed for that one change (interior parts, exterior sheet metal, all glass). It doesn't ad up for a very low volume car.
I'll tell you why: because it further seperates it from the M4. The lower roofline means that the rear seats will be even less usable. Therefore anyone who has children (aka the older crowd) will be more likely to go to the M4.

The lower roofline attracts younger buyers who do not yet need the space of the M4.

The people saying that this is Toyota/BMW are forgetting the fact that this Roofline drop is CLEARLY well executed. Look at the fitment, it's flawless.

You don't alter and re-sculpt body panels to test for a toyota/bmw joint car. The sculpting has clearly been stylized. This is for a production model.

This is actually getting ridiculous how people keep insisting that it cannot be an M2 test.

Carbon fiber roof. Double Bubble roof. Carbon fiber hood. Lowered Roof line. Recaro seats.

It's development testing for the M2. No question about it.
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      12-15-2014, 02:14 PM   #92
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My guess is that we are seing the replacement platform for the next Z tested together with some light weight parts that will be on the future M2.
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      12-15-2014, 02:16 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
THere are a lot of fun things being said on here by some people who obviously don't know how the automotive design process works. Let's discuss what it's not.

It's not a 2 series / M2. There is no way that BMW would change the roofline and chop the wheelbase for either a 2 series LCI or an M2. Think about it people, that would require a complete set of crash tests. Just not going to happen.

It's not a Mini. No way that car is FWD. Proportions are off. There is too much body panel between the door and front wheel, and as has been stated, you can see the diff.

It's not a GTS / Race car. Those cars have homologation rules, which require a certain number of cars built (varies by series). Again, would have to crash test / type approve to sell, then sell the cars in limited numbers, to make a small race car? Just not not a feasible project.

It's either a Z4 mule, or a new sports coupe.
Exactly this. There is ZERO chance of the M2 having this extensive of modifications. Automakers make cars like this all the time. Nearly every new program starts out with a cut up version of a current vehicle. Most of the time they are not this nice, but they are typically not driven on public roads, either.

As for the cost of one-off body panels . . . that's inconsequential. Automakers do it all the time for concept cars and show cars. This one car probably cost 7 figures to make, so using a carbon fiber roof or hood to get the CoG right is no big deal.

It's a Chassis Mule for the BMW/Toyota joint venture or another unknown sports car.
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      12-15-2014, 02:17 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKRAPOVICOWNS View Post
Could be an early grancoupe 2 series mule
Good call!
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      12-15-2014, 02:18 PM   #95
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      12-15-2014, 02:19 PM   #96
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Could it just be an optical illusion? Sometimes it's hard to tell from the pics. Looks like an M235i with CFRP roof / hood (M2 body mule).
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      12-15-2014, 02:19 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
I'm with @Adem1534 on this one, M2. They wouldn't produce a mule with such polish and body panel fitments for something so completely different like Toyota/Z-car/Mini.

- Further differentiates the M2 from the M235i, and additionally the M2 from the M4.
- explains delayed release of M2 over standard 2-series.
- Shorter/lower/lighter could provide the physics to achieve all that we've been looking to improve on the standard 2-series platform

Has anyone compared the wheel base of this to the previous M2 test mules? That's the only piece that doesn't add up. Why they would have spent so much time testing on a different wheelbase.

Yes...this is SO MUCH MORE ATTRACTIVE than the M235i. Current model just looks like a smaller 4-series...this is the aggressive bulldog it should have been.
Thank you.

To me, it's clear as day, and I understand what others are saying, but to put it bluntly I think they're completely wrong.

A company does not re-design a car's roofline like that for nothing.

IT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE that the lower roofline is being tested with 4 (YES, FOUR) separate design choices that everyone was speculating about the M2.

Carbon Fiber roof.
Double Bubble roof.
Recaro Sport seats.
Carbon Fiber hood.

And now we see a suspicious M235i testing with these things equipped, and everyone is screaming Toyota/BMW sports car! Ridiculous.

From an engineers perspective. That car, with that well exectuted roof line, is NOT a test mule for a different car. Everything flows specifically with the 2 series body.

This is for the M2. Carbon fiber parts all over a suspicious 2 series and here we are, listening to people yell about how it's not an M2 because of the lowered roof line.

Ugh. Enough ranting for the day.
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      12-15-2014, 02:19 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135
My guess is that we are seing the replacement platform for the next Z tested together with some light weight parts that will be on the future M2.
Agreed
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      12-15-2014, 02:22 PM   #99
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Holy crap, a CF roof! It's happening after all.
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      12-15-2014, 02:27 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
I'll tell you why: because it further seperates it from the M4. The lower roofline means that the rear seats will be even less usable. Therefore anyone who has children (aka the older crowd) will be more likely to go to the M4.

The lower roofline attracts younger buyers who do not yet need the space of the M4.

The people saying that this is Toyota/BMW are forgetting the fact that this Roofline drop is CLEARLY well executed. Look at the fitment, it's flawless.

You don't alter and re-sculpt body panels to test for a toyota/bmw joint car. The sculpting has clearly been stylized. This is for a production model.

This is actually getting ridiculous how people keep insisting that it cannot be an M2 test.

Carbon fiber roof. Double Bubble roof. Carbon fiber hood. Lowered Roof line. Recaro seats.

It's development testing for the M2. No question about it.
1. We have seen M2 development vehicles, and they are not this.

2. It's too late in the development cycle for these changes to be made to the M2. The final prototypes have been on the road for months now with the production body work. The car launches next fall, that means the car will basically be production ready by spring at the latest. If this were the M2, we would have seen this car a year ago, and the other prototypes would already have this body work.

3. It's also much shorter than an M235i. This, along with the chopped roof, would basically force a completely new vehicle in order to fit passengers properly.

4. It doesn't have wide fenders or other M body work. If they were going to do all the body work for the roof and wheelbase, they would have included all the M body work.

5. Race car, CSL, GTS versions would not be developed using the stock M235i body work at this point. They would either be using the same M2 mules as the other ones we've seen or they would wait for the production car to launch and modify one of those.

6. Early chassis mules almost always have aftermarket Recaro seats along with a cage and harnesses for safety reasons. Several early M3/M4 prototypes had them as well.

I work in the auto industry. I'm telling you there is no chance that this is an M2 mule.
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      12-15-2014, 02:29 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
My guess is that we are seing the replacement platform for the next Z tested together with some light weight parts that will be on the future M2.
It is possible that the curvature/size of the roof panel (as well as the hood) is compatible with the current 2-series, despite the test mule's lower roof line. However, I can't tell definitively from the photos whether or not this is true.
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      12-15-2014, 02:35 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
Thank you.

To me, it's clear as day, and I understand what others are saying, but to put it bluntly I think they're completely wrong.

A company does not re-design a car's roofline like that for nothing.

IT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE that the lower roofline is being tested with 4 (YES, FOUR) separate design choices that everyone was speculating about the M2.

Carbon Fiber roof.
Double Bubble roof.
Recaro Sport seats.
Carbon Fiber hood.

And now we see a suspicious M235i testing with these things equipped, and everyone is screaming Toyota/BMW sports car! Ridiculous.

From an engineers perspective. That car, with that well exectuted roof line, is NOT a test mule for a different car. Everything flows specifically with the 2 series body.

This is for the M2. Carbon fiber parts all over a suspicious 2 series and here we are, listening to people yell about how it's not an M2 because of the lowered roof line.

Ugh. Enough ranting for the day.
I usually agree with you on most things, but not this time. And this is coming from an engineer in the automotive industry.

I'm willing to bet that this is NOT the M2. Makes 0 sense to modify the wheel base and roof line of the car for an M2 that might account for 1/5 of the sales of the 2 series (consider that Europe gets diesel cars).

Not to mention we've already seen 3 prototypes (the black, white and then most recently the red one) that showed wider arches to accommodate M3/4 running gear. So all of a sudden, they went backwards and to an M235i style components? Makes no sense. Not to mention, on the red car they've more or less shown the front end of the car (bumper), and now all of a sudden they've gone back?

Think about BMW's Roadster, going all the way back to the 60s. Shorter rear end, longish front end. If you look from the character line down, you can almost see roadster proportions if you ignore the rear bumper skin.

Lastly: The 2er has already limited rear legroom. BMW is not going to shorten the wheelbase even more to make it essentially a 2 seater (again showing that this is a completely different project).

My 2 cents. Having said that, this kind of gives me hope that the M2 will get CF roof and hood. I'm really hopefully it does.

P.S. There are plenty of instances of manufacturers testing brand new platform on a current gen body FYI. Not that unheard of.
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      12-15-2014, 02:36 PM   #103
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Can this be a new 2/M2 while the current one with long wheelbase for 2GC?
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      12-15-2014, 02:43 PM   #104
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looking on proportions and brake's disks it's a rwd car.. maybe a z2 or maybe rwd tests on new platform
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      12-15-2014, 02:43 PM   #105
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Welcome back to the BMW Z3.
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      12-15-2014, 02:44 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Welcome back to the BMW Z3.
THANK YOU.

Enough with this ridiculous M2 arguing.
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      12-15-2014, 02:47 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
Thank you.

To me, it's clear as day, and I understand what others are saying, but to put it bluntly I think they're completely wrong.

A company does not re-design a car's roofline like that for nothing.

IT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE that the lower roofline is being tested with 4 (YES, FOUR) separate design choices that everyone was speculating about the M2.

Carbon Fiber roof.
Double Bubble roof.
Recaro Sport seats.
Carbon Fiber hood.

And now we see a suspicious M235i testing with these things equipped, and everyone is screaming Toyota/BMW sports car! Ridiculous.

From an engineers perspective. That car, with that well exectuted roof line, is NOT a test mule for a different car. Everything flows specifically with the 2 series body.

This is for the M2. Carbon fiber parts all over a suspicious 2 series and here we are, listening to people yell about how it's not an M2 because of the lowered roof line.

Ugh. Enough ranting for the day.
Oh jeez, are you kidding me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
1. We have seen M2 development vehicles, and they are not this.

2. It's too late in the development cycle for these changes to be made to the M2. The final prototypes have been on the road for months now with the production body work. The car launches next fall, that means the car will basically be production ready by spring at the latest. If this were the M2, we would have seen this car a year ago, and the other prototypes would already have this body work.

3. It's also much shorter than an M235i. This, along with the chopped roof, would basically force a completely new vehicle in order to fit passengers properly.

4. It doesn't have wide fenders or other M body work. If they were going to do all the body work for the roof and wheelbase, they would have included all the M body work.

5. Race car, CSL, GTS versions would not be developed using the stock M235i body work at this point. They would either be using the same M2 mules as the other ones we've seen or they would wait for the production car to launch and modify one of those.

6. Early chassis mules almost always have aftermarket Recaro seats along with a cage and harnesses for safety reasons. Several early M3/M4 prototypes had them as well.

I work in the auto industry. I'm telling you there is no chance that this is an M2 mule.
Please listen to this guy. He works in the industry. I do not, but I have very good friends that do (for the manufacturers, not dealers). You simply cannot change the body in white on a car and up and sell it. You have to crash it. Racer20 may be able to confirm for me, but last I checked, it costs between $3M and $5M to certify a car for crash test purposes. You're not going to do that for a car that you're going to sell in the tiny numbers that the M2 is going to sell for (relatively speaking).

You may be an engineer, and I am as well, but just because the car has some awesome panel gaps does not mean it's production ready. Look at any history of new models. Any time a new platform is launched, virtually 100% of the time it shows up as a mule that looks like a mutant version of a current production car. Then, once it's closer to production, and they actually have started making the true production body in white, then it gets camouflage. Usually the "mule" version is a few years out, maybe 3, certainly not a model that's coming out next year. The production times for the tooling, etc., are just too long for that.

It's a mule for something completely different.
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      12-15-2014, 02:49 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Welcome back to the BMW Z3.
Nice
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      12-15-2014, 02:50 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmundy View Post
THANK YOU.

Enough with this ridiculous M2 arguing.
It does show you that an M2 with CFRP roof is completely feasible.
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      12-15-2014, 02:54 PM   #110
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This is a good mystery. We've already seen numerous M2 mules. It doesn't make sense to me that they would be that far into developing the M2 then make a huge change like this. The proportions appear the same in the front and back ends, it's the 6 or so inches chopped from between the back end of the door and the front of the rear wheel that have changed...along with the significantly dropped roofline.

To me those changes suggest a roadster. We lose the rear seat, and we have a much shorter windshield/lower roof. This fits the character of the next Z. But still, why they would pair that development with a non convertible body is odd. Maybe BMW is happy enough with the 2 series chassis that they are using that as the basis for the next Z? Maybe the roof and hood are not the only parts with CFRP? Maybe the chassis is CFRP as well. In that case we have a much lighter next gen Z...just what all of us have been asking for.

Bottom line, if I was a betting man my money would go with the next Z.
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