Who's getting the new M5?

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by clar

Seriously, if u drove the X6M for 2 blocks and turned back, u were never serious with that car to begin with. May I ask what is it about the ZF in the X6M that bothered u this much? U went to M6 from a 650i due to the gearbox? I drove the M6 on the track and it was a really nice drive. I think the difference between the M6 and the 650i is far more than simply the gearbox and speed.

Clar yes M6 is a nice car but not for track. I was serious about X6M but ZF turned me off. I hate ZF and thats the main reason I went to M6. Maybe its just me and as I said before I do respect you and all people like you that love ZF but not a right gearbox for me! ZF is too smooth for M-car but again this is just my opinion... Hopefully there is possibility to have DCT on next M6 because I am in favore of that car

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Clar yes M6 is a nice car but not for track. I was serious about X6M but ZF turned me off. I hate ZF and thats the main reason I went to M6. Maybe its just me and as I said before I do respect you and all people like you that love ZF but not a right gearbox for me! ZF is too smooth for M-car but again this is just my opinion... Hopefully there is possibility to have DCT on next M6 because I am in favore of that car

Man just get a GT3 and and call it a day, and keep the BMW M as a DD. (They are not good track cars too heavy)

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by cjackson1906

I agree with you. So since you have had most of these cars, which one would you suggest: F90 M5 (even though you haven't driven it yet); RS7 Performance; or new MB E63 AMG-S?

Tough call here but the truth of the matter is, I get the car that usually pops up first if Im in the market for that particular segment. Ive had an RS7 (tuned past the Performance numbers) and I liked it alot but it had its shortcomings so I would pass there. I cant get what is not out yet (as you alluded to) but I have no doubt the new M5 will be incredible. So for now the MB E63 would be the choice but sadly I dont need a sedan anymore so the M5 will be a keeper for a bit and then a coupe will come back into the fold. I also have a C63s coupe which I really enjoy currently.

Originally Posted by clar

Seriously, if u drove the X6M for 2 blocks and turned back, u were never serious with that car to begin with. May I ask what is it about the ZF in the X6M that bothered u this much? U went to M6 from a 650i due to the gearbox? I drove the M6 on the track and it was a really nice drive. I think the difference between the M6 and the 650i is far more than simply the gearbox and speed.

I think the TCU/ECU also plays a role in how the ZF feels or any other transmission for that matter. The RS7 and the Bentley had great software that made the ZF very driveable in aggressive situations and Jag was pretty good but not as good as the former(s).

Case in point from my ownership: Porsche has a incredible PDK but my 2011 in my Turbo "felt" worse than my 2009 BMW M3 DCT. Of course I say feel cause in reality who knows what was going on but I owned the cars and I owned them both for over a year so I have some perspective. I really felt the DCT was so aggressive and fast especially under paddle control while the PDK in the 2011 was slower in comparo and just not as responsive. But then Porsche updated their PDK software and the next batch in the 991 iteration was solid. I was doing 2nd gear chirps in my C4S of all cars (991.1) Of course P cars rock and thats why Im a customer for life and they made their PDK arguably one of the best out there. The GT3 PDK-S is stupendous with sling shot shifts and amazing reaction to human input. The ZF is going to be just fine in the M5 as I said and I know you and i concur on it.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Tough call here but the truth of the matter is, I get the car that usually pops up first if Im in the market for that particular segment. Ive had an RS7 (tuned past the Performance numbers) and I liked it alot but it had its shortcomings so I would pass there. I cant get what is not out yet (as you alluded to) but I have no doubt the new M5 will be incredible. So for now the MB E63 would be the choice but sadly I dont need a sedan anymore so the M5 will be a keeper for a bit and then a coupe will come back into the fold. I also have a C63s coupe which I really enjoy currently.




I think the TCU/ECU also plays a role in how the ZF feels or any other transmission for that matter. The RS7 and the Bentley had great software that made the ZF very driveable in aggressive situations and Jag was pretty good but not as good as the former(s).

Case in point from my ownership: Porsche has a incredible PDK but my 2011 in my Turbo "felt" worse than my 2009 BMW M3 DCT. Of course I say feel cause in reality who knows what was going on but I owned the cars and I owned them both for over a year so I have some perspective. I really felt the DCT was so aggressive and fast especially under paddle control while the PDK in the 2011 was slower in comparo and just not as responsive. But then Porsche updated their PDK software and the next batch in the 991 iteration was solid. I was doing 2nd gear chirps in my C4S of all cars (991.1) Of course P cars rock and thats why Im a customer for life and they made their PDK arguably one of the best out there. The GT3 PDK-S is stupendous with sling shot shifts and amazing reaction to human input. The ZF is going to be just fine in the M5 as I said and I know you and i concur on it.

You have good points about the TCU and I 100% agree with you; however there are many other factors such as power/torque input, gear ratios, weight distribution, drivetrain configuration (AWD/RWD/Trans-axle, etc), clutch capacity,... to define the performance of DCT or any other transmission even Torque convertor ZF8. Having said that the current MDCT is the same on M3/M4 and M5/M6 but I'm sure you felt the difference since you had both car at the same time. another example is Getrag DCT on AMG-GTS vs SLS. They are both almost the same with minor change on AMG-GTS but you feel the completely different performance just because of Trans-axle config on AMG-GTS causing even different weight distribution (of course beside the extra torque)... Let's see what's going on with F90...

[Vic55]

The AMG GTS DCT is clearly a software change- shift holding, downshifts, etc... the transmission is thinking much more and doing it better than the SLS. You are lumping feel into my points of driveability which is fine but the key is the software.

This was my point as well with the PDK in Porsche where the PDK updates changed the driveability. In my GT3- the above and beyond software named PDK-S is the same thing.

Bimmer6

Yeah lets see about the F90 and ZF8

[M6-Coupe]

LOL... I doubt

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

LOL... I doubt

Im gonna call my secret BMW installer in Germany he will tell me the truth

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Im gonna call my secret BMW installer in Germany he will tell me the truth

LOL... yes please and please ask him to talk to BMW and convince them to put Getrag 7DCL750 transmission on F90 M5 and then Gxx M6
Germans are conservative so 750 NM (550 lb-ft) claimed transmission is able to handle 600 lb-ft (10% over spec) easily and that's the next M5 torque

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

LOL... yes please and please ask him to talk to BMW and convince them to put Getrag 7DCL750 transmission on F90 M5 and then Gxx M6
Germans are conservative so 750 NM (550 lb-ft) claimed transmission is able to handle 600 lb-ft (10% over spec) easily and that's the next M5 torque

Well those same freaks from Ingolstadt did it with the RS7.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by clar

The only advantage of DCT over ZF autos is the shift time,

it doesn't even have that..If we're being honest.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-pdk-heres-how

eight-speed automatic is actually quicker-shifting than the PDK gearbox in the Porsche 911, GM officials say; and that’s a transmission that engineers benchmarked for the project.

But when we pressed the engineer overseeing the project for the single most important design attribute, he pointed to the ‘smart pump’ setup, in which GM incorporated a binary operation with two inlet discharge ports.
To put it as simply as possible, this clever hydraulic pump system works a bit like the cylinder deactivation the Corvette already has. Under acceleration and aggressive driving, the transmission uses both ports and provides more flow to the clutch packs, to speed up shifts. And then at cruising speed it relaxes to a single port, which reduces drag.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

it doesn't even have that..If we're being honest.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-pdk-heres-how

But the GM tranny is not a ZF- for clarification.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Vic55

But the GM tranny is not a ZF- for clarification.

I thought it was a ZF that GM modified?

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

I thought it was a ZF that GM modified?

You didnt read your own article that you posted?

That new ‘8L90’ transmission, designed completely within GM, by a dedicated team, is a traditional hydraulic automatic—solenoids, valves, planetary gearsets and all—but GM says that it provides the super-quick shifts of dual-clutch boxes, yet with more smoothness.

[clar]

Originally Posted by Vic55

You didnt read your own article that you posted?

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

it doesn't even have that..If we're being honest.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-pdk-heres-how

LOL....
Ok this is the simple thing:
GM 8 speed is faster than PDK.
MDCT is faster than PDK.
PDK is faster than ZF8...
The conclusion????

I can tell you....
PDK and GM 8 speed are as fast as 100-200 msec
ZF8 is about 200 msec
MDC is less than 80 msec

Can we feel this difference? well in fact the answer is yes and no because human body is not that fast to sense 20 msec BUT can sense the feeling of torque transfer in about 50-100 msec; however it's not just about that... The main difference depends on the software of Transmission Control Unit (TCU) that Vic is trying to explain to everybody.
The structure of MDCT makes it flexible for fast TCU which is the combination of shift points (you can read it threshold) and how fast torque can be transferred between two clutches at shift moment and this is what you can select (1,2,3) as drivelogic adjustment.

This video can help understanding the structure of Dual Clutch Transmission...

[Phatcat]

Guys, a coupe of years ago almost everyone here is ready to jump ship if the next M5 has AWD, now almost everyone is for it.

BMW knows what they are doing, if they really went for the ZF8, they must have tuned it enough that it will satisfy people.

I have a feeling in a year or so, people will be like "DCT? We don't need DCT."

[Bimmer6]

I was one that said I'm out minus AWD ............more power is a joke if your slidding around with TC lighting up like a Xmas tree. I will be on the sidelines and watch, and not buy gen one again, as we learned gen two is always better.

[Vic55]

I love our first world problems, trying to figure if we want a 130k car because of a transmission.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I was one that said I'm out minus AWD ............more power is a joke if your slidding around with TC lighting up like a Xmas tree. I will be on the sidelines and watch, and not buy gen one again, as we learned gen two is always better.

You are completely right but can you believe every single day I miss that power and easy sliding of M6??? Dont get me wrong I really enjoy KING but I miss that scary power and that xmas tree you mentioned...

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

I love our first world problems, trying to figure if we want a 130k car because of a transmission.

Well I got 80k car (KING) just because of Manual Transmission LOL

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Vic55

You didnt read your own article that you posted?

Or I can post other articles referring to it as a ZF transmission from 2014 lol which are plentiful lol, interpreting that as their internal code name or however they label it doesn't exactly make it not reading does it

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Guys, a coupe of years ago almost everyone here is ready to jump ship if the next M5 has AWD, now almost everyone is for it.

BMW knows what they are doing, if they really went for the ZF8, they must have tuned it enough that it will satisfy people.

I have a feeling in a year or so, people will be like "DCT? We don't need DCT."

Because power is to the point where people need assistance in most cases, lord help them if they start getting 800whp+ lol

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Because power is to the point where people need assistance in most cases, lord help them if they start getting 800whp+ lol

This kid has some good points LOL