Yeah so the 2015 Z06 starts at just under 79k

[Divexxtreme]

I have one on order, but mine loaded will be around $100k. It's still a ridiculously phenomenal car at that price.

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by swanson

[/B]
Incorrect. There are guys getting mid 30's mpg while cruising.

32-34 mpg here. Literally.

[DocWeatherington]

People, two different cars. Its like comparing an apple to an orange. Need I remind everyone the Corvette and the ZO6 is built from the ground up from start to finish on a 2 door, 2 seat sports car foundation. It is the better "Sports Car", the M3/M4 is built upon a chassis that includes an awd wagon that supports numerous transmissions and motors including hybrids. The Vette in any configuration is a bargain just as well as the M3/M4 is in its duality.

Now the real questions is when is BMW going to answer the 911, Corvettes and F-type with a 2 door sports car built from the ground up with that sole purpose. I think then we will have an Apple to Apple comparison.

An yes for 100k its quite a bargain if you can deal with the Chevy Aveo, I mean Cruz as a loaner... But yeah it is a bargain

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by swanson

[/B]
Incorrect. There are guys getting mid 30's mpg while cruising.

+1

Chevy says they're rating it in touring mode so as not to exaggerate. They're also figuring the new A8 transmission will get "well into" the 30s in eco mode but are saying 28/29 because they figure most people will be in touring.

Either way, given the size of that engine and output that's silly high mpg.

[ixse]

wow.. what a deal.. considering this will probably dip into high 10s or even mid 10s..

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by swanson

[/B]
Incorrect. There are guys getting mid 30's mpg while cruising.

Not at all, I didn't say it wasn't possible if you went highway cruising. I said the combined mpg is difficult to get to on normal local/highway mix. Edmunds got the closest I've seen on combined of 18.8 with best of 30.8, worst of 9.4 fill ups. I don't doubt the 4 cylinder cruising mode will net 30+ mpg, I'm saying from the tests I've read so far it seems that it under performs on the combined mpg.

[bogdan]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

I have one on order, but mine loaded will be around $100k. It's still a ridiculously phenomenal car at that price.

Knowing your penchant for modding cars, I can't wait to see what you come up with.

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Now the real questions is when is BMW going to answer the 911, Corvettes and F-type with a 2 door sports car built from the ground up with that sole purpose. I think then we will have an Apple to Apple comparison.

+1

and

Love the 'HOLY SH!T!' hang on for dear life handle --->passenger side center console. This beast is sweet...inside and out.

[zosoboogie]

No one wrote about the dealership mark up...when the ZR1 came our my local Chevy dealer had a $25,000 "ZR1 locator fee"

[M4LF]

Originally Posted by F80JMcD

The interior is awful. The steering wheel looks like it came from the 80's.

Originally Posted by ssabripo

welp, that didn't take long

freaking hilarious!!

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by zosoboogie

No one wrote about the dealership mark up...when the ZR1 came our my local Chevy dealer had a $25,000 "ZR1 locator fee"

I'm paying MSRP for mine. Anyone that doesn't is an idiot who doesn't do his research.

[gthal]

Holy crap!! Great pricing. AMAZING car.

Originally Posted by ssabripo

listen, I LOVE BMW, and I am completely smitten with GmBH for a long time now, but come the f*ck on, anyone saying any M4/M3 is "better" in any way (interior included) than this C7 Z06 is just a myopic sackrider, plain and simple.

my 0.02

Generally true... I do think the F8X interior is a tad better... but just a tad. And the C7 needs an M-DCT equivalent... the A8, as has been reported, isn't as crisp even if it shifts fast. Other than that, I completely agree. The Z06 will embarrass cars that are literally twice as much money and do it in style.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

listen, I LOVE BMW, and I am completely smitten with GmBH for a long time now, but come the f*ck on, anyone saying any M4/M3 is "better" in any way (interior included) than this C7 Z06 is just a myopic sackrider, plain and simple.

my 0.02

+1

This car calls out badge whores more than any car ever.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

People, two different cars. Its like comparing an apple to an orange. Need I remind everyone the Corvette and the ZO6 is built from the ground up from start to finish on a 2 door, 2 seat sports car foundation. It is the better "Sports Car", the M3/M4 is built upon a chassis that includes an awd wagon that supports numerous transmissions and motors including hybrids. The Vette in any configuration is a bargain just as well as the M3/M4 is in its duality.

Now the real questions is when is BMW going to answer the 911, Corvettes and F-type with a 2 door sports car built from the ground up with that sole purpose. I think then we will have an Apple to Apple comparison.

An yes for 100k its quite a bargain if you can deal with the Chevy Aveo, I mean Cruz as a loaner... But yeah it is a bargain

This whole "the M4 is not a true sports car" is an overly-used and lame argument. Yeah, the M4 has parts, designs, engineering that are partially derived from its 4 series younger brother....BUT GUESS WHAT!!! just about every car brand (with the exception of the supercar makers) are doing that.

The Porsche Turbo and GT3 have engineering and chassis commonalities with the Carrera.

The Z06 willl share many parts, including nearly the whole aluminum sub-frame, with its C7 Stingray sibling.

The M4 has the parts of a sports car (LSD, brake upgrades, high-strung engine, track-oriented oil and cooling system, DCT and manual options), it has the performance numbers of a sports car, it has the price of a sports car...it is a sports car.

People should have no qualms about comparing it to other sports cars (the C7 Stingray is a much better comparison both in terms of price and performance).

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

This whole "the M4 is not a true sports car" is an overly-used and lame argument. Yeah, the M4 has parts, designs, engineering that are partially derived from its 4 series younger brother....BUT GUESS WHAT!!! just about every car brand (with the exception of the supercar makers) are doing that.

The Porsche Turbo and GT3 have engineering and chassis commonalities with the Carrera.

The Z06 willl share many parts, including nearly the whole aluminum sub-frame, with its C7 Stingray sibling.

The M4 has the parts of a sports car (LSD, brake upgrades, high-strung engine, track-oriented oil and cooling system, DCT and manual options), it has the performance numbers of a sports car, it has the price of a sports car...it is a sports car.

People should have no qualms about comparing it to other sports cars (the C7 Stingray is a much better comparison both in terms of price and performance).

The flaw here is that the Carrera and the Stingray are ALSO true sports cars. The cars you mentioned... the super performance sports cars... are derived from a sports car platform. The Ms are derived from a luxury car platform.

Regardless, I'm not making excuses for the M but the reality is BMW needs to make more compromises in an M than a dedicated sports car does. The M has to be great at accommodating a wide range of expectations from practicality, luxury, comfort and performance. A true sports car is focused largely on performance. The M4, regardless of its price or performance, is not a sports car IMO but that doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't get compared to a true sports car.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by gthal

The flaw here is that the Carrera and the Stingray are ALSO true sports cars. The cars you mentioned... the super performance sports cars... are derived from a sports car platform. The Ms are derived from a luxury car platform.

Regardless, I'm not making excuses for the M but the reality is BMW needs to make more compromises in an M than a dedicated sports car does. The M has to be great at accommodating a wide range of expectations from practicality, luxury, comfort and performance. A true sports car is focused largely on performance. The M4, regardless of its price or performance, is not a sports car IMO but that doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't get compared to a true sports car.

But the Z06 also has to make compromises because it's a Chevy. That's why the Z06 has a automatic tranny instead of a DCT bc that tranny also has to be used in Chevy's trucks.

With BMW making it a point to distinguish the coupe (M4) so prominently from the sedan (M3) it seems to me that they are inviting more of these sports cars comparisons.

[mkoesel]

It's not really about the 4 Series. The M4 and 4 Series are both simply sedans that have been coupe-ified solely for marketing reasons. They gain absolutely nothing by adopting a curvier greenhouse and losing the rear doors and center rear seat other than appealing to a select customer base who wants to avoid the stigma of a sedan (or wants to gain the allure of a coupe if you prefer). They are - in every sense of the word - sedans in coupe's clothing, and they don't even bother trying to hide this on the spec sheet where they are 100% mechanically identical to their sedan siblings and thus perform identical to them (for all intents and purposes) as well.

They are certainly not the only vehicles on the market that are guilty of this, but they do seem to get roped into the most comparisons to vehicles built from the ground up specifically for high performance. Vehicles which have limited occupancy and limited ease of egress/ingress because this format follows directly from their function rather than because clever people realized they could squeeze another 10% of sales out of vehicle program by de-utilifying their bread and butter family cars.

As practical family cars go, by the way, the M3 is the fastest in the world around the 'Ring. That's right - no other sedan nor coupe-de-duped sedan is faster. And as I said above, it turns out that ripping the back doors off isn't good for any more performance. I think we all agree that you could - just to satisfy your curiosity to see if this phenomena is reflexive, say - add rear doors to a Corvette and it wouldn't make it any faster either. Not even if you added a rear seat to keep them from being nonsense (though no less nonsense than taking those doors off a sedan is, if you think about it). But if for some reason GM did go ahead and do the latter you'd see that Frankenstein Corvette suddenly baited into all sorts of battles against real sedans - you know, the ones built from the ground up for utility - and get systematically creamed for being a terrible family car. And then, once that was established, people would start criticizing the two door Corvette for not being a good family car either.

Originally Posted by Dalko43

This whole "the M4 is not a true sports car" is an overly-used and lame argument. Yeah, the M4 has parts, designs, engineering that are partially derived from its 4 series younger brother....BUT GUESS WHAT!!! just about every car brand (with the exception of the supercar makers) are doing that.

[M3guy3]

i was pretty convinced the Z06 was a 100k car. wow !

[gthal]

Originally Posted by trinim3

But the Z06 also has to make compromises because it's a Chevy. That's why the Z06 has a automatic tranny instead of a DCT bc that tranny also has to be used in Chevy's trucks.

With BMW making it a point to distinguish the coupe (M4) so prominently from the sedan (M3) it seems to me that they are inviting more of these sports cars comparisons.

There are lots of reasons it has a traditional auto... that auto also shifts faster than a PDK.

EVERY manufacturer makes compromises for many reasons. BMW makes compromises too. I don't think that is the point. The point, to me anyway, is that the Z06 is built off a dedicated performance car platform. The BMW isn't. The M4 will be compared to sports cars because it is a sporty car with performance than rivals those cars. However, everyone knows that the true comparisons to the M4 are the RS5, C63 and Lexus. Cars also built into high performance machines but based on a regular car platform.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by gthal

The flaw here is that the Carrera and the Stingray are ALSO true sports cars. The cars you mentioned... the super performance sports cars... are derived from a sports car platform. The Ms are derived from a luxury car platform.

Regardless, I'm not making excuses for the M but the reality is BMW needs to make more compromises in an M than a dedicated sports car does.

But see this is my issue: Why are the Carrera and Stingray considered "true" sports cars but the M4 is not? I understand the seating difference between the M4 and the C7 (the Carrera, has 2 back seats, no matter how small they are), but that aside, what is so different among these cars?

How is the M derived from a "luxury" platform but the Porsche is not? What compromises does the M4 make (other than seating) that the C7 and porsche don't make?

If all you can say is that the M4 is not as performance-oriented as it could have been, I can point out similar issues in the C7 and porsche (which have vast differences from their race-track versions). All street-legal cars have compromises in terms of performance, otherwise they wouldn't be suitable or legal for daily driving.

I realize that the "sports car" label can be ambiguous at times, in the same way that the "super car" label can be. But if the M4 has an e-diff, like the Porsche, an adaptable suspension, like the Porsche, a DCT or manual option, like the Porsche, a track cooling and oil system, like the Porsche, track-ready steel brakes or CCB, like the Porsche, and has similar performance to the Porsche, how is the Porsche worthy of being called a "sports car" but the M4 is not.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

But see this is my issue: Why are the Carrera and Stingray considered "true" sports cars but the M4 is not? I understand the seating difference between the M4 and the C7 (the Carrera, has 2 back seats, no matter how small they are), but that aside, what is so different among these cars?

How is the M derived from a "luxury" platform but the Porsche is not? What compromises does the M4 make (other than seating) that the C7 and porsche don't make?

If all you can say is that the M4 is not as performance-oriented as it could have been, I can point out similar issues in the C7 and porsche (which have vast differences from their race-track versions). All street-legal cars have compromises in terms of performance, otherwise they wouldn't be suitable or legal for daily driving.

I realize that the "sports car" label can be ambiguous at times, in the same way that the "super car" label can be. But if the M4 has an e-diff, like the Porsche, an adaptable suspension, like the Porsche, a DCT or manual option, like the Porsche, a track cooling and oil system, like the Porsche, track-ready steel brakes or CCB, like the Porsche, and has similar performance to the Porsche, how is the Porsche worthy of being called a "sports car" but the M4 is not.

At the end of day, there is no "right" answer

My view is that true sports cars are designed with a more singular purpose... performance. That doesn't mean they don't accommodate other design agendas but that there is more focus on ultimate track performance. The F3X platform is primarily an entry level luxury platform and designed as such and the F8X is built off that. Maybe that is splitting hairs too much and I'm all full of B.S.

I do see your point relative to what BMW designs into the M cars (suspension, brakes, etc) vs. Porsche. The difference, IMO, is that the car comes from a more "handicapped" starting point being based off the regular luxury car. If BMW decided to build a completely new, performance oriented and dedicated M3/4 platform car with nothing at all based on the 335/435, I would bet the car would be a higher performing car... I also bet it would cost as much as a 911S and feel like more of a DD compromise.

[Damasconian]

Originally Posted by gthal

At the end of day, there is no "right" answer

My view is that true sports cars are designed with a more singular purpose... performance. That doesn't mean they don't accommodate other design agendas but that there is more focus on ultimate track performance. The F3X platform is primarily an entry level luxury platform and designed as such and the F8X is built off that. Maybe that is splitting hairs too much and I'm all full of B.S.

I do see your point relative to what BMW designs into the M cars (suspension, brakes, etc) vs. Porsche. The difference, IMO, is that the car comes from a more "handicapped" starting point being based off the regular luxury car. If BMW decided to build a completely new, performance oriented and dedicated M3/4 platform car with nothing at all based on the 335/435, I would bet the car would be a higher performing car... I also bet it would cost as much as a 911S and feel like more of a DD compromise.

Great discussion guys, Ive enjoyed it this morning. Great points all around.