M4 or used 911 turbo ?

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I expect the m3 to be almost as fast as the 997.1 tt and handle better.

I really would be surprised if this is true. Count me in the skeptical group.

[sizquik]

Search on Carmax for a TT. You can get one with a full warranty which covers just about everything. Mine has already paid for itself 2X over. You can't go wrong with a used turbo as long as you have a warranty.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I really would be surprised if this is true. Count me in the skeptical group.

The lap times for the 997.1 reqlly weren't that impressive

The car is very powerful, but the m3 power to weight will be close . The 997.1 trapped around 117-119, and I think we could see the m3 in this range.

But we will see for sure

[darkalley]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

The lap times for the 997.1 reqlly weren't that impressive

The car is very powerful, but the m3 power to weight will be close . The 997.1 trapped around 117-119, and I think we could see the m3 in this range.

But we will see for sure

I wonder how many of the "ring times" are real vs fake. Who is out there checking to make sure the cars are bone stock? I might be wrong but couldn't it be possible these times are, lets say, inflated!

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by darkalley

I wonder how many of the "ring times" are real vs fake. Who is out there checking to make sure the cars are bone stock? I might be wrong but couldn't it be possible these times are, lets say, inflated!

Ring times are nothing more than an indicator of a car's performance potential. People make too much fuss over the ring times, but there are simply way too many variables such as weather conditions, what kind of tires are used, etc. I still think it's a good information but it should not be a sole conclusive reference for a car's performance.

[JoeFromPA]

If you are out there chasing numbers, buy the best built stock car and build it up with more power, more suspension, more brakes, and more tires.

Otherwise, the winner will always be the vehicle you enjoy driving the most.

[Needsdecaf]

The last 911 Turbo I truly lusted after was the 993 version. The 996, 997 and now 991 just don't do anything for me. I'd much rather have a Carerra S or a GT3 than those cruisers. The 991 in particular is just hideous - the hips are far too big, PDK only, ugh. To me it's just an expensive GT-R.

I'd look for a 996 GT3 or 997 GT3 or CS if you can't swing the GT3.

Ironically now that I can just about afford a 911...I can't fit in one with the family. And a third car isn't in the cards so I'll have to wait until the kids are out of school. Sigh.

[Jopa201]

I'm going to drive one next Thursday and then I'll go the Detroit car show to see the new m4 and one I drive it I will have all the facts I need.

[bojanis]

Originally Posted by Jopa201

I'm going to drive one next Thursday and then I'll go the Detroit car show to see the new m4 and one I drive it I will have all the facts I need.

Had both 996 911tt and E46 M3. Bottom line, loved the M more.
Porsche is faster, no doubt, but the BMW was just better as a daily driver and just had a better feel to it. If I had to pick between today's 911 and M3/M4, I'd go for a Bimmer again, and use the money I've got left for little mods, Starbucks etc

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by darkalley

I wonder how many of the "ring times" are real vs fake. Who is out there checking to make sure the cars are bone stock? I might be wrong but couldn't it be possible these times are, lets say, inflated!

No one does, and thats what really sucks about Nurburgring times. There is no way of knowing whether or not the cars are the same as the cars you will buy in the showroom unless the manufacturer admits to modifying the car.

Even if all the manufacturers really did use stock cars, the times are still basically useless as there are different drivers driving each car. Then there is the weather, which could be vastly different even over certain parts of the track.

I mean the only way to make the times mean anything would be to enclose the whole track. And thats never going to happen.

[ixse]

considering most manufacturers want to post best ring times, they wouldnt run a hot lap on a bad weather day lol. the real variables are driver, tires, brakes. im sure some suspension set ups change but not the components.
probably better standards are tests run by third parties . although lately with all the garbage reviews that are funded by chevy that praise new corvette over pretty much anything On the market makes me think twice..

[pcbrs]

I am eagerly anticipating the arrival of the 2015 M3. It's going to be an amazing car, and very practical. Deposit is in and my configuration is almost finalized. However, I have just been offered a 2008 911 Turbo with less than 5000 miles for about the same price. Both cars can fit my daily needs, although the M3 would be easier for my 4 year old to get in and out of. Torn about what to do.

I've been reading this forum for quite some time, and trust the opinions and insights of the group here. I imagine some of you have experiences with both cars, and would appreciate your advice. Thank you.

[Necromancer]

Nobody has experience with 2015 M3 yet. Are you comparing 911 to M3 or M4?

[JoeFromPA]

Gents,

The 997.1 turbo is one of the most reliable Porsches since it's emergence 7 years ago. The 997 as a whole has been fairly reliable, with it's biggest weakpoint being the M96/M97 engines in the "regular" 911s. Those were cheaper, mass-produced engines with problems. The Mezger-line engine in the turbo was a far more expensive, race-derived engine with a proven history going back into the 90s. And outside of that, it's set in a very reliable model.

The 997.1 turbo is faster than the new m3. Straight line, corners, whatever, when performance figures come out that 7 year old turbo is going to be faster. I'm not saying that to denigrate the new M3, but that 480hp, turbo, AWD vehicle with a lower center of gravity (yes, I'm presuming, since it's both lower, smaller, and has a flat six low down engine), with a shorter wheelbase and a lot more torque....yes, it's still going to be faster.

Now it's no longer worlds faster. It'll trap 118mph stock, consistently, and 120mph on some occasions. It'll pull an 11.4 quarter miles all day long. The new m3 is likely an ~11.8-12.0 quarter mile vehicle and it will compete with the new 991 911 S apparently on the track.

But beyond that, it's a true race engine. The last Mezger engine, the last Mezger turbo engine. Dry sump, bolted in cylinder liners, and proven dead reliable at well over 700awhp (some even say over 800awhp).

A $1k tune alone puts that car at an 11.1 quarter mile consistent runner.

It is mostly depreciated and now good, clean examples can be picked up for $60-70k - even CPO versions can be picked up for ~$75k with 20-30k miles on them.

In terms of maintenance expenses, with mild DIY capability (oil and brakes, air filters, belts) it's about a $2k per year maintenance/repair cost expectation. The clutch is a weak point for super aggressive driving - it's near the limits of it's torque capacity at stock power levels. And a clutch job, with flywheel, is a $3k expense.

But the bottom line is it's a 911 turbo. It's a dream car, a super car.

I considered it versus the new m3....

....

And I'm on this forum because I realized I'd rather put 15k miles a year on a new m3 than spend the same amount of money on depreciation and maintenance for 15k miles a year on a 997.1 turbo.

For whatever this is worth.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Gents,

The 997.1 turbo is one of the most reliable Porsches since it's emergence 7 years ago. The 997 as a whole has been fairly reliable, with it's biggest weakpoint being the M96/M97 engines in the "regular" 911s. Those were cheaper, mass-produced engines with problems. The Mezger-line engine in the turbo was a far more expensive, race-derived engine with a proven history going back into the 90s. And outside of that, it's set in a very reliable model.

The 997.1 turbo is faster than the new m3. Straight line, corners, whatever, when performance figures come out that 7 year old turbo is going to be faster. I'm not saying that to denigrate the new M3, but that 480hp, turbo, AWD vehicle with a lower center of gravity (yes, I'm presuming, since it's both lower, smaller, and has a flat six low down engine), with a shorter wheelbase and a lot more torque....yes, it's still going to be faster.

Now it's no longer worlds faster. It'll trap 118mph stock, consistently, and 120mph on some occasions. It'll pull an 11.4 quarter miles all day long. The new m3 is likely an ~11.8-12.0 quarter mile vehicle and it will compete with the new 991 911 S apparently on the track.

But beyond that, it's a true race engine. The last Mezger engine, the last Mezger turbo engine. Dry sump, bolted in cylinder liners, and proven dead reliable at well over 700awhp (some even say over 800awhp).

A $1k tune alone puts that car at an 11.1 quarter mile consistent runner.

It is mostly depreciated and now good, clean examples can be picked up for $60-70k - even CPO versions can be picked up for ~$75k with 20-30k miles on them.

In terms of maintenance expenses, with mild DIY capability (oil and brakes, air filters, belts) it's about a $2k per year maintenance/repair cost expectation. The clutch is a weak point for super aggressive driving - it's near the limits of it's torque capacity at stock power levels. And a clutch job, with flywheel, is a $3k expense.

But the bottom line is it's a 911 turbo. It's a dream car, a super car.

I considered it versus the new m3....

....

And I'm on this forum because I realized I'd rather put 15k miles a year on a new m3 than spend the same amount of money on depreciation and maintenance for 15k miles a year on a 997.1 turbo.

For whatever this is worth.

I owned one, and I agree with some of what you said, not all.

From a roll, the new m3 will be very close to the 997.1 in straight line speed. The m3 will also be much easier to handle and drive on the track. the 997 suspension leaves a lot to be desired, and I would be willing to bet the m3 is very close on lap times, if not faster on some tracks.

The new m3 has quite a bit more sophisticated suspension technology and materials, including the new electromechanical LSD.

Bottom line is that imo the m3 will be equal in performance or better than the 997, and easier to drive

Ill also add that the 997 is very rough and loud, and hard to live with as an only car. It is far less refined than even the e92 m3. If I could do it again, and had to get a 997 I would easily choose a gt3 over the 997tt. Its suspension is much more well sorted from the factory. That said, the new 991s is worlds better than both of those cars overall imo, its very good.

[Brosef]

^agreed. I'd much rather have a 991S

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Gents,

The 997.1 turbo is one of the most reliable Porsches since it's emergence 7 years ago. The 997 as a whole has been fairly reliable, with it's biggest weakpoint being the M96/M97 engines in the "regular" 911s. Those were cheaper, mass-produced engines with problems. The Mezger-line engine in the turbo was a far more expensive, race-derived engine with a proven history going back into the 90s. And outside of that, it's set in a very reliable model.

The 997.1 turbo is faster than the new m3. Straight line, corners, whatever, when performance figures come out that 7 year old turbo is going to be faster. I'm not saying that to denigrate the new M3, but that 480hp, turbo, AWD vehicle with a lower center of gravity (yes, I'm presuming, since it's both lower, smaller, and has a flat six low down engine), with a shorter wheelbase and a lot more torque....yes, it's still going to be faster.

Now it's no longer worlds faster. It'll trap 118mph stock, consistently, and 120mph on some occasions. It'll pull an 11.4 quarter miles all day long. The new m3 is likely an ~11.8-12.0 quarter mile vehicle and it will compete with the new 991 911 S apparently on the track.

But beyond that, it's a true race engine. The last Mezger engine, the last Mezger turbo engine. Dry sump, bolted in cylinder liners, and proven dead reliable at well over 700awhp (some even say over 800awhp).

A $1k tune alone puts that car at an 11.1 quarter mile consistent runner.

It is mostly depreciated and now good, clean examples can be picked up for $60-70k - even CPO versions can be picked up for ~$75k with 20-30k miles on them.

In terms of maintenance expenses, with mild DIY capability (oil and brakes, air filters, belts) it's about a $2k per year maintenance/repair cost expectation. The clutch is a weak point for super aggressive driving - it's near the limits of it's torque capacity at stock power levels. And a clutch job, with flywheel, is a $3k expense.

But the bottom line is it's a 911 turbo. It's a dream car, a super car.

I considered it versus the new m3....

....

And I'm on this forum because I realized I'd rather put 15k miles a year on a new m3 than spend the same amount of money on depreciation and maintenance for 15k miles a year on a 997.1 turbo.

For whatever this is worth.

I think you're romanticizing the car a bit too much. I owned a 997 and it was great for its day, but I think people get too caught up in the nostalgia of the Mezger block.

[Yay-Z]

7 year car difference. Wait to test drive M4

[B-1Pilot]

Why not both?

///M car and Porsche look good in the garage together... I just went the opposite way than you are thinking. More powerful M, and a lowly 996.c2. By the way, Porsche maintenance really isn't any worse than BMW maintenance...

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by Hoopumpers

20k to replace CCB

WTF!

[jbockrd]

Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot

Why not both?

///M car and Porsche look good in the garage together... I just went the opposite way than you are thinking. More powerful M, and a lowly 996.c2. By the way, Porsche maintenance really isn't any worse than BMW maintenance...

very nice garage!!

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I think you're romanticizing the car a bit too much. I owned a 997 and it was great for its day, but I think people get too caught up in the nostalgia of the Mezger block.

What part? I just said I decided to go new m3 over the 997tt. Please bear in mind that my comments were specifically about the 997tt.

The Mezger turbo engine in the 997 is impressive not because it featured the latest technology (though variable turbo geometry is still cutting edge today in gas vehicles), but that in a car putting out effectively 500crank HP in 2007 (from 3.6 liters) it's been proven to be pretty darn reliable to 200k miles with almost no known problem spots. No bearing issues, valve issues, ring issues, crank issues, etc. - even the turbos are reliable, if properly cared for.....

I'm not commenting on ride quality, NVH, etc....though I've found the NVH at least to be just fine personally and the interior build quality to be outstanding.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

From a roll, the new m3 will be very close to the 997.1 in straight line speed. The m3 will also be much easier to handle and drive on the track. the 997 suspension leaves a lot to be desired, and I would be willing to bet the m3 is very close on lap times, if not faster on some tracks.

The new m3 has quite a bit more sophisticated suspension technology and materials, including the new electromechanical LSD.

Bottom line is that imo the m3 will be equal in performance or better than the 997, and easier to drive

Ill also add that the 997 is very rough and loud, and hard to live with as an only car. It is far less refined than even the e92 m3. If I could do it again, and had to get a 997 I would easily choose a gt3 over the 997tt. Its suspension is much more well sorted from the factory. That said, the new 991s is worlds better than both of those cars overall imo, its very good.

Genuine question but are your comments specifically geared towards the 997tt? I ask because, as far as I know, it's incredibly easy to drive on the track. The AWD 997s as a whole were praised for their poise, solidity, and easy of driving at the limit - even compared to the 996, but worlds better than the aircooled versions. I have limited 911 seat time, so I'm going off wide ranging feedback here.

Surprised by a lot of your other comments as well, which made me ask again if you were speaking to the tt in particular.

But on technology - yes, definitely. The f80, though an f30 at heart, is in essence a 2014 model while the 997 platform is in essence a 2004 model at heart. There's a solid 9 years separating the two in terms of technology and build, or in the f30's case more like 7-8 years. Huge difference. One of my additional reasons for choosing the f80 m3.