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      10-23-2021, 09:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
Curious...How is it you have the B&W menus if your car was built with HK? Maybe I missed something in the thread.

Also, extensive experience with Tidal and Qobuz auditioning on my home audio system for a couple of months..I am a true 2ch audiophile listening to both of these sources on very revealing equipment. I can tell you unequivocally that Qobuz sounds better (to my ear) than Tidal, and the price is much better too. Tidal you're paying for a slightly (and I mean slightly) more expansive library and all that high rez crap that NO car DAC can reproduce anyway..And quite honestly it's meaningless since most of it all comes down to the recording, not the resolution.

How are you liking the Bavsound? I am deciding between it and the Bimmertech kits. I have the hifi system and it's not going to cut it for us.
I coded the B&W menus (which includes the B&W DAC options as well) to use with my HK system. While not originally designed for the HK system, B&W DAC options produce a better sound experience with the HK system IMHO. As far as the Bavsound upgrade, I find it to be a very noticeable improvement - especially when paired with a good sound source. I don’t have any experience with the Bimmertech stuff, but I will speculate the Bimmertech stuff will have a similar improvement.
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      10-24-2021, 09:17 AM   #46
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“My point, if that's what you're referencing, wasn't a comparative analysis to a high-end home system, rather a capability assessment based on what "high res" is supposed to do in the first place .... which is to resolve very small details that normally get dropped like the echo off of the bass off the piano, when the singer's lips part, the scratch of the guitar pick on the string “

Absolutely no car environment would ever support these nuances even to the trained audiophiles ear. Agreed!

“The point isn't to ding (or compare) the B&W system, rather to simply ask: if the B&W system's DAC, amp, & speakers aren't capable of that resolving & reproducing those tiny details, then high-res (and any effort spent on it) wouldn't be worth much.“

Didn’t take that way and totally agree. Was just referencing my initial intent when I started the thread. I had a lot of souls searching to do when I did the build sheet based on “forum/internet” opinions and feedback on the B&W. The broad consensus was that while it had good mid and highs clarity was lacking bottom end etc. I was happily relieved that when we got the car and set up basic EQ settings and use of good quality source material I was fully satisfied with the performance of the system

That aside your information in your post is excellent. I would have never known that the source device SW limitations capped out at the CD quality level but as you said other than a high end system in an acoustically configured environment are you ever going to be able to hear the difference. In the car environment CD does sound really good especially when you consider that with the advent of streaming etc we have forgotten how good CD sounds compared to the compressed low but rate streaming material.

Thank you for the research and sharing of the info in your post

.
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      10-24-2021, 06:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hammer110! View Post

In the car environment CD does sound really good especially when you consider that with the advent of streaming etc we have forgotten how good CD sounds compared to the compressed low but rate streaming material.

Thank you for the research and sharing of the info in your post
Thanks Hammer! Your point about CD quality ... it's very ironic that only now - in 2021 - have we gotten back to the digital quality we had in the 1980s!


Here's a funny side note:

Over the years I've bought a few Ind Manufaktur cars - I don't know if this is why - but one day awhile back, out of the blue, BMWNA sent me a pair of B&W headphones!



Now these aren't anything too fancy, but they were much higher quality what what I'd been using (PSB M4U2s) ... and they got me to start digging into my old stuff ...

WAY back in the late 80s when I was just a kid getting my license I got REALLY into car stereo stuff, eventually custom building a pretty kickass system - well I also had a huge CD collection, that I digitized online, but then I fell out of all of it for a decade or two ...

Then I got those B&W P5s, started digging through my old CDs and WOW! Emotion in songs I hadn't noticed in years!

So that got me back into it, and eventually back into some better home equipment ... and, for me, DACs DEFINTELY make a difference ... something like a Chord Mojo paired with a good headphone will convince anyone who's ever liked music
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      10-25-2021, 08:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by jmciver View Post
I coded the B&W menus (which includes the B&W DAC options as well) to use with my HK system. While not originally designed for the HK system, B&W DAC options produce a better sound experience with the HK system IMHO. As far as the Bavsound upgrade, I find it to be a very noticeable improvement - especially when paired with a good sound source. I don’t have any experience with the Bimmertech stuff, but I will speculate the Bimmertech stuff will have a similar improvement.
Can this be done with the sh*tty hifi system mine was delivered with?

Eton makes speakers that are Plug and play for this vehicle and that should most certainly be better than the Bavsound I just need to learn more about the efficiencies of each before I commit.
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      10-25-2021, 08:37 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmciver View Post
I coded the B&W menus (which includes the B&W DAC options as well) to use with my HK system. While not originally designed for the HK system, B&W DAC options produce a better sound experience with the HK system IMHO. As far as the Bavsound upgrade, I find it to be a very noticeable improvement - especially when paired with a good sound source. I don’t have any experience with the Bimmertech stuff, but I will speculate the Bimmertech stuff will have a similar improvement.
Can this be done with the sh*tty hifi system mine was delivered with?

Eton makes speakers that are Plug and play for this vehicle and that should most certainly be better than the Bavsound I just need to learn more about the efficiencies of each before I commit.
Sure it can. However, I am not sure how well the new DSP profiles, etc will work with the HiFi system. The equipment for the HiFI, HK and B&W systems are all different, most notably the amps in all 3 systems are different. However, the specs for the B&W and HK systems, including the amps, are much closer to each other than the HiFi system specs.

This is not to say that coding the B&W stuff won't help the HiFi system sound better (I have not heard the HiFi system in the X7 though). But the sound improvement may not be the same like what I, and others, have heard when using the B&W coding with the HK system. But the coding is very simple with BimmerCode so if it does not work out, you can easily code it back to stock.
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      10-25-2021, 10:27 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by jmciver View Post
Sure it can. However, I am not sure how well the new DSP profiles, etc will work with the HiFi system. The equipment for the HiFI, HK and B&W systems are all different, most notably the amps in all 3 systems are different. However, the specs for the B&W and HK systems, including the amps, are much closer to each other than the HiFi system specs.

This is not to say that coding the B&W stuff won't help the HiFi system sound better (I have not heard the HiFi system in the X7 though). But the sound improvement may not be the same like what I, and others, have heard when using the B&W coding with the HK system. But the coding is very simple with BimmerCode so if it does not work out, you can easily code it back to stock.
Where do you find the option for this in bimmercode.

Thanks
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      10-25-2021, 11:06 AM   #51
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmciver View Post
Sure it can. However, I am not sure how well the new DSP profiles, etc will work with the HiFi system. The equipment for the HiFI, HK and B&W systems are all different, most notably the amps in all 3 systems are different. However, the specs for the B&W and HK systems, including the amps, are much closer to each other than the HiFi system specs.

This is not to say that coding the B&W stuff won't help the HiFi system sound better (I have not heard the HiFi system in the X7 though). But the sound improvement may not be the same like what I, and others, have heard when using the B&W coding with the HK system. But the coding is very simple with BimmerCode so if it does not work out, you can easily code it back to stock.
Where do you find the option for this in bimmercode.

Thanks
It has been a while since I connected my X7, but it should be an option under the HU_MGU module (which is the main iDrive module).
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      10-25-2021, 03:49 PM   #52
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It has been a while since I connected my X7, but it should be an option under the HU_MGU module (which is the main iDrive module).
Got it. Also did some digging and found 3d option in the expert mode setting. Makes it sound a little different. But it's better than before
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      10-25-2021, 06:42 PM   #53
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Where do you find the option for this in bimmercode.

Thanks
Tell me more about this...Appears to be an app I download? Then what? I buy and OBD reader to plug into the port and that syncs with this app? Then code away?

Sorry for the dumb question new to BMW. #Audi4Life! 🤣
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      10-27-2021, 02:19 AM   #54
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Let's me clear about bandwidth requirements.

16bit audio sampled at 44100 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*16*44100/ (8bit per byte) = 176,400 bytes a second.

24bit audio sampled at 192,000 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*24*192000/ (8bit per byte) = 1,152,000 bytes a second.

5ghz wifi can handle 25,000,000 bytes a second or more.

So the bandwidth should be there to handle it.

24bit/192Khz dacs are easily included on $60 PC sound cards.
https://www.newegg.com/creative-soun...82E16829102178

There is no reason the BMW shouldn't support hi-res audio, but it probably doesn't anyway.
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      10-27-2021, 09:39 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
Tell me more about this...Appears to be an app I download? Then what? I buy and OBD reader to plug into the port and that syncs with this app? Then code away?

Sorry for the dumb question new to BMW. #Audi4Life! 🤣
Here you go...recent post I made regarding coding and diagnostic tools...ista/esys and protool are similar to rosstech in the vw/audi world...bimmercode and bimmerlink are really easy to use with most basic coding and diagnostic functionality most here will ever need...me on the other hand I have a problem as I have all of them...lol:
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I have a few that I like for BMWs as they don't just pull generic codes, but also BMW specific error codes, please see below:

IOS App BimmerLink - Not my favorite, but very convenient given it's on IOS so it always on my phone. Requires a BT adapter that they list as compatible, but once you have that you can also buy Bimmercode, which I use to adjust factory set features, including disabling auto/start/stop.

Android app Protool - depending on the module you purchase, it can do both diagnostics and coding. This is probably the most feature-rich tool besides ISTA and ESYS which are both BMW SW tools

Foxwel NT510 or higher...ECS also sells a Schwaben version of the same scanner - Also very convenient, no BT adapter required as it is a standalone device. Less user-friendly than a phone app, but pretty easy to navigate.

ISTA for Diagnostics and ESYS for coding Both are BMW proprietary SW programs, that require a laptop and OBD2/Enet cable to run, but you literally have the same tools dealers technicians use, so you have access to repair protocols, etc. The software is out there in the forums and I will leave that at that.
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      10-27-2021, 09:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
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Let's me clear about bandwidth requirements.

16bit audio sampled at 44100 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*16*44100/ (8bit per byte) = 176,400 bytes a second.

24bit audio sampled at 192,000 times a second with 2 tracks = 2*24*192000/ (8bit per byte) = 1,152,000 bytes a second.

5ghz wifi can handle 25,000,000 bytes a second or more.

So the bandwidth should be there to handle it.

24bit/192Khz dacs are easily included on $60 PC sound cards.
https://www.newegg.com/creative-soun...82E16829102178

There is no reason the BMW shouldn't support hi-res audio, but it probably doesn't anyway.
I was referring to the connection between phone and car, and the related compression.

If you connect to the car using Bluetooth Audio (not CarPlay or Android Auto), the Bluetooth protocol as far as I know compresses the audio using an SBC codec from back in 2003. As far as I know, its relatively lossy compression protocol.

Many newer (last 5 years) bluetooth headphones will use more efficient compression schemes such as LDAC or AAC or aptX, which because they are more efficient maintain fidelity even in compressed format. I think there are versions of these codecs that are considered lossless. Not sure if BMW Bluetooth supports these codecs.

I am unsure how the audio is transferred to the BMW if you use CarPlay or Android Auto. Those two protocols do use Wi-Fi, but given that both interfaces need to work across many different types of hardware, I would not be surprised if the phone using a fixed codec to compress audio before transmitting it to your head end unit, regardless of how good the source audio was. Purely a guess, but I would be surprised if it was transmitting uncompressed WAV audio.

Even if you have a 192 kHz, 24 bit file on your phone, if the phone then compresses that to a low bandwidth using a lossy codec, you will lose fidelity.
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      10-28-2021, 05:17 PM   #57
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I was referring to the connection between phone and car, and the related compression.

If you connect to the car using Bluetooth Audio using an SBC codec its relatively lossy compression protocol.

Newer bluetooth headphones will use LDAC or AAC or aptX, there are versions of these codecs that are considered lossless. Not sure if BMW Bluetooth supports these codecs.

Even if you have a 192 kHz, 24 bit file on your phone, if the phone then compresses that to a low bandwidth using a lossy codec, you will lose fidelity.
That was my point. The bandwidth is there, the capability to playback hi-res should be there.

But at the end of the day it's about making sure you've got the right feature set to support high-quality audio and it is a frequent oversight in consumer electronics in general, not just auto.
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      10-29-2021, 12:36 AM   #58
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That was my point. The bandwidth is there, the capability to playback hi-res should be there.

But at the end of the day it's about making sure you've got the right feature set to support high-quality audio and it is a frequent oversight in consumer electronics in general, not just auto.
The reason BMW doesn't support hi-res is because it'd be complicated & expensive as hell for not much (likely zero) benefit.

(1.) How many consumers are interested in high-res? Not a ton

(2.) Of those who are, how many actually know what it means AND have experience with what it means? I can tell you that number is exceedingly small. Even audiophile people spending $4,000 for a single pair of headphones don't really know what it is / how it works (those who do use pretty complicated software / apps) ... and I've never met a single one who can reliably tell the difference between a 16/44.1 and any higher stream. Not one. And that's in perfect conditions, not the very imperfect listening environment that's an auto interior ...

(3.) What kind of system would BMW have to build to take advantage of high-res? A pretty expensive one ....


Beyond all that, however, both Android & Apple are capping "high res" at 48kHz in the car (and effectively with their software unless you specifically know how to get around that) so the bandwidth is kinda moot anyway.

Therefore, in order to make it work, BMW would have to add a Wi-Fi streamer into its electronics and, unless they're gonna use a Raspberry Pi, those are pretty expensive, and most consumers aren't gonna be running Roon or some other expensive streamer app.
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      11-01-2021, 11:40 AM   #59
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The reason BMW doesn't support hi-res is because it'd be complicated & expensive as hell for not much (likely zero) benefit.
The benefit might be there, but it's neither expensive or complicated. It just needs to be part of the design. If a $15 sound card can do hi-res, a $3000 stereo upgrade should be able to as well.

I'll accept that it may only be supported by direct USB playback because other software doesn't support it, that would be apple/google/spotify responsibility to unblock. But there is no excuse not to support it in with the DACs. Hell at work I run my headphones through my display because I flip between like 3 inputs for different PCs, all with HDMI in, and it can do 24b 96khz.
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      11-01-2021, 01:17 PM   #60
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The benefit might be there, but it's neither expensive or complicated. It just needs to be part of the design. If a $15 sound card can do hi-res
A $15 sound card supporting hi-res is like a toddler "supporting" $1000/oz caviar: does it work? Sure. Does it accomplish anything meaningful? nope.

There's a few reasons to use hi-res like low noise floor, micro-details, etc but that stuff is incredibly hard to hear, most people wouldn't notice even if their equipment can reproduce it, and that equipment - to do it well - is usually a few grand. at least. E.g., Focal Utopia headphones alone are $4,400, then you need good hi-fi electronics like amp, dac, & source. If you're extremely knowledgeable and experienced you can probably do that for $1,000 but most people who want those micro-details are going to more, say, $2,500 for a Schiit Yggy DAC, and at least another, say, $1,000 for a decent tube amp, but probably more like another $2,500. And then you need the interconnects, maybe clean power, etc, so plan on another $500-$1,000 ... thus, a "standard" high-res hi-fi headphone system will be in the $5k-$10k range.

Sure, it's absolutely possible to build something decent hi-res hi-fi for <$1000, say, Senn hd-600s ... but not without losing something. And that's headphones - about the cleanest speakers-to-ear system you can get (and with only 2 drivers); not the interior of an SUV! Hell, even a good pair of campfire ear buds are $1500 ...

Net-net: you can feed hi-res to a $15 dac chip, and you can feed hi-flav caviar to 15 month old baby ... but should you? Is there any value in doing it? Almost certainly not.
That was more the point.
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      11-02-2021, 09:48 PM   #61
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As any FYI to any Tidal HiFi people, I've been getting Tidal HiFi for $10/month ($120/year) for years by searching for promotions whenever I have to renew ... it's usually a Best Buy offering, so you just go to their website and search for tidal.


The downside is, sometimes I have to switch accounts - i.e., kill the old account and start a new one. This last July when I renewed again I was able to keep all of my credentials and keep the $10/month ... but if you do have to switch accounts, then you lose all your saved playlists, artists, etc UNLESS ... you use soundiiz

It's a website/app that allows you to export all of that and then reimport it into new accounts OR port your stuff from one service to another. It's pretty awesome.

In any event, I love Tidal simply because I like a pretty eclectic range of music (ironically very little rap) and they have most all of it and all of their music is CD quality minimum (which, IMO, is the highest quality a car stereo, or most systems, can realistically utilize/present.)
Worked like a freaking charm once I figured you had to import current tidal material from existing trial and then export it to the new Best Buy tidal subscription. Thanks Bud saved me some coin and introduced to a cool app Soundiiz 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
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      11-19-2021, 03:48 PM   #62
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As another data point for those who want to tweak, below are a few pics of my EQ and other settings. But as I mentioned in my post above, the EQ settings are very similar to what many consider "good" settings. I like a bit of extra bass with my music and these settings give me that. My speakers and subs are the Bavsound upgraded units - not quite as good as the B&W speakers I will speculate, but better than the original HK speakers that they replaced…

jmciver
Thanks for the info been following...What makes you think the Bavsound is better than the HK speakers? Aside from your ear.

Was it a noticeable difference on just the factory amp? I am going to upgrade the hifi speakers, the amp is still a question mark as to what I should do there. Not sure if our cars have an ASD or not (X7 40i) but that I believe impacts any aftermarket amp choices.

If the Bavsound quality is good I'd consider it. Eton is the best option but they don't make a center channel option for our cars. They have speakers for every other location though. Bavsound on the other hand is drop in plug and play for our cars.
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      11-19-2021, 08:27 PM   #63
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jmciver
Thanks for the info been following...What makes you think the Bavsound is better than the HK speakers? Aside from your ear.

Was it a noticeable difference on just the factory amp? I am going to upgrade the hifi speakers, the amp is still a question mark as to what I should do there. Not sure if our cars have an ASD or not (X7 40i) but that I believe impacts any aftermarket amp choices.

If the Bavsound quality is good I'd consider it. Eton is the best option but they don't make a center channel option for our cars. They have speakers for every other location though. Bavsound on the other hand is drop in plug and play for our cars.
I am not an audio engineer by any stretch, but the Bavsound speakers sound better with the factory HK amp based on their design (i.e. materials, etc) and more efficient use of the signal coming from the factory HK amp - especially when paired with a high quality sound source. You can really hear the difference if you can do a direct comparison between a stock sound system and an “upgraded” one (i.e. going directly from one car to another..).

All that said, I believe the amp is a key player to improved sound, just like the speakers. The Bavsound speakers (and BimmerTech ones as well I will speculate), sound good because the HK amp is very good. The HK amp is much better than the HiFi amp (power, DSP, etc) - and there is no PnP amp upgrade for the G-series cars with HK at this time, only for the HiFi amp. So the sound improvement using Bavsound speakers with the HiFi amp may not be as good - but that can be a bit subjective. For this reason, there are some that recommend that to get the best sound upgrade in a Hifi equipped car, you should do both the speakers and the amp.

Lastly, the 40i does not have ASD (which is a good thing IMO if you value music sound quality in your car). The M50i has it I believe though….
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Last edited by jmciver; 11-19-2021 at 08:34 PM..
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GrussGott18113.00
      11-20-2021, 08:06 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmciver View Post
I am not an audio engineer by any stretch, but the Bavsound speakers sound better with the factory HK amp based on their design (i.e. materials, etc) and more efficient use of the signal coming from the factory HK amp - especially when paired with a high quality sound source. You can really hear the difference if you can do a direct comparison between a stock sound system and an “upgraded” one (i.e. going directly from one car to another..).

All that said, I believe the amp is a key player to improved sound, just like the speakers. The Bavsound speakers (and BimmerTech ones as well I will speculate), sound good because the HK amp is very good. The HK amp is much better than the HiFi amp (power, DSP, etc) - and there is no PnP amp upgrade for the G-series cars with HK at this time, only for the HiFi amp. So the sound improvement using Bavsound speakers with the HiFi amp may not be as good - but that can be a bit subjective. For this reason, there are some that recommend that to get the best sound upgrade in a Hifi equipped car, you should do both the speakers and the amp.

Lastly, the 40i does not have ASD (which is a good thing IMO if you value music sound quality in your car). The M50i has it I believe though….
Awesome info, thank you!

You make a good point on the amplification differences between hifi and HK and I tend to agree the amp is probably the better place to start. Bavsound is redesigning their amp so nothing available at the moment. Maybe just do the speakers get it out of the way and then grab the amp once it's available. Good to know on the ASD, that will certainly make things easier to upgrade and not have to bi-pass any factory settings.
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