M3 or M4 for staged track build out?

[///Mobbin]

I'm curious what folks think is the better option here. If I were to pick up an M3 or M4 with the intentions to DD it for 2 years and then turn it into a track car, which car would you pick?

My build would include the following options for either car:
DCT, Cloth Seats, Carbon roof, 19's (to better fit a front BBK), and Harmon Kardon

I would immediately buy a set of track wheels/tires and then add the rest a little at a time between track events to address what I thought needed improvement. This would include, suspension mods such as sways, coilovers, camber plates or adjustable control arms, etc., a BBK front and rear, possibly a tune.

Then when I can pick up another DD, I would have a half-cage welded in and install one piece racing seats, harnesses, etc. At that point I'd probably put a track exhaust on also. The reason for the half cage is in hopes to keep the car street legal for occasional weekend drives or the Friday commute when the weather is nice. (I would also rather drive to the track for the time being but could tow if needed).

Thanks for hearing the plan, now which would you choose!

[CanAutM3]

M4 -> 50lb lighter, lower center of gravity and lower aero drag (smaller frontal area)

[FTS]

It would be a much better proposition to buy a Cayman S/GTS/GT4 IMHO if you intend to turn it into a track car/DD, far fewer mods would be needed.

[MaynardZed]

Yes the M4 is a tad lighter, but M3 is $4k less and that money could be used for race parts, coilovers, etc. In theory the M3 would have a stiffer body, but probably not relevant nowadays.

Honestly I'd go with whichever one you like the looks of better.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

but M3 is $4k less

Good point for the US, but I thought the difference was $2.2k .

Also, for most of the rest of the world, the price difference between the M3 and M4 is negligible (~$800USD).

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Good point for the US, but I thought the difference was $2.2k .

Also, for most of the rest of the world, the price difference between the M3 and M4 is negligible (~$800USD).

Oh yeah, just $2200 difference now that I look it up. Buys you some track wheels and set of tires (almost). I'd go with whichever one the OP likes the look of still though.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

M4 -> 50lb lighter, lower center of gravity and lower aero drag (smaller frontal area)

Good info, thanks. I knew about the rear trunk being CFRP but I didn't know the car was 50 lbs lighter, lower, and had better aero. Good starting point I suppose.

Originally Posted by FTS

It would be a much better proposition to buy a Cayman S/GTS/GT4 IMHO if you intend to turn it into a track car/DD, far fewer mods would be needed.

Thank you for the thoughts and I hear you, trust me. I am drooling over the GT4 and would love to have one but I think all allocations will be claimed by the time I could get one. And more importantly, I don't think I would ever DD this car. Then I really enjoy modding so that is part of the fun for me! The GTS may be a better option from that perspective, but again, it would have to be a second car for me. And whatever my DD is, it needs to have rear seats for my kids! I also tend to think the M3/M4 will be a more fun modding platform than the Cayman GTS and will have more mods readily available. The GTS is also probably already closer to the track-focused car I am after though. Tough call!

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Yes the M4 is a tad lighter, but M3 is $4k less and that money could be used for race parts, coilovers, etc. In theory the M3 would have a stiffer body, but probably not relevant nowadays.

Honestly I'd go with whichever one you like the looks of better.

I think the difference is $2,200 and agreed that could go towards mods right away. Then I do tend to think the M3 looks a little better as a DD but I think the M4 will look better with a half-cage installed and with other track focused mods installed. I am not solely focused on that of course, more performance I guess but that seems very close between the two cars.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Good point for the US, but I thought the difference was $2.2k .

Also, for most of the rest of the world, the price difference between the M3 and M4 is negligible (~$800USD).

Interesting pricing they've chosen, perhaps it is due to standard option differences between countries.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Interesting pricing they've chosen, perhaps it is due to standard option differences between countries.

As far as I know, the M3 and M4 have the same starting point from an options perspective (i.e. there are no features that are standard on the M4 wile being a cost option on the M3).

In Canada, MSRP for the M3 and M4 are $74000CAN ($59200USD) and $75000CAD ($60000) respectively.

I am not sure why BMW USA has elected to increase the price disparity between the two...

[nicknaz]

M3 b/c the fender flares look better!

In all seriousness, I think this is going to be a $$ platform to make into a track only car. Why not start off with a lighter 2 seats car? Or at least start off with a specific class in mind and build to be competitive there rather than starting with the car first

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

My build would include the following options for either car:
DCT, Cloth Seats, Carbon roof, 19's (to better fit a front BBK), and Harmon Kardon

Uncertain if BBK would be required. The stock brakes have been adequate (granted they are not optimal especially since they were single piston) for previous generations WHEN the car is stripped down and vented (with hoses). Plenty of 24 hour race teams in Europe run on stock system with metal guide pins and race rotors/pads.

Even in the US club racing world, plenty of BMWCCA cars out there stripped and such running stock brakes (fast boy Eric Wong's CM E46 comes to mind).

In your case, these brakes are lightyears ahead from previous gens. I would get that thought out of your head otherwise you will be struggling to spend and upgrade I just saved you $5K...

Lutfy

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

M3 b/c the fender flares look better!

In all seriousness, I think this is going to be a $$ platform to make into a track only car. Why not start off with a lighter 2 seats car? Or at least start off with a specific class in mind and build to be competitive there rather than starting with the car first

I do like the fender flares ... And perhaps an M3 with a half-cage could look better than I was thinking: e90 M3 w/ half-cage

Truth be told I don't make it to the track nearly as much as I would like to, I mainly do HPDE's and am happy with that for now. And even though I don't make it out as much as I would want, I still want to make it count when I do! I have also considered just getting an e46 m3 as a second car and turning it into a track car more quickly than I would an F80/82. I really want to see what I could do with a high horsepower track focused DCT car though too (e46 would be a manual of course, which I would also enjoy).

Originally Posted by lutfy

Uncertain if BBK would be required. The stock brakes have been adequate (granted they are not optimal especially since they were single piston) for previous generations WHEN the car is stripped down and vented (with hoses). Plenty of 24 hour race teams in Europe run on stock system with metal guide pins and race rotors/pads.

Even in the US club racing world, plenty of BMWCCA cars out there stripped and such running stock brakes (fast boy Eric Wong's CM E46 comes to mind).

In your case, these brakes are lightyears ahead from previous gens. I would get that thought out of your head otherwise you will be struggling to spend and upgrade I just saved you $5K...

Lutfy

I hear you, those brakes are light years ahead of what the previous generation M3's have had (I owned an e93 m3)! I did just install a 380mm Stoptech Trophy BBK on my S4 though (sub-par factory brakes), and I have to tell you, it's pretty amazing the difference it makes. And that's just on the street! I am heading to the track at the beginning of April for a full shakedown. Perhaps you're right though, the M3 has amazing factory brakes for the first time, that will allow me to focus on the wheels/tires and suspension right away, the brakes may be GTG for awhile. Would you remove the 19's then or still get them just in case I want to go Big-BBK later on? Also, what size are most folks selecting for their track tire sets?

If I went M3 w/ 18's that is $3400 towards wheels/tires/suspension already!

And thanks everyone for your thoughts, really enjoying the input!

[///Mobbin]

3 votes for M3, 2 votes for M4 so far.

[///Mobbin]

Thanks for the comments and votes all! I am still looking over pictures and should probably check out some cars in person again before deciding but these pics sure make me want to go m4:

dr2ray's Mineral Gray M4

Build of the day:
M4, 6MT, Mineral Gray, Cloth Seats, Carbon roof, 19's (just in case BBK), and Harmon Kardon - MSRP $67,775

I also really like Alpine White for a track focused car. Then I keep going back and forth on 6MT vs DCT but highly prefer 6MT on the streets and just think I'll regret not going manual down the road.

My last 4 cars: 6MT -> DCT -> PDK -> 6MT

It's a real struggle bc I am fairly certain I would prefer the DCT at the track. Thoughts on DCT vs 6MT at the track?

[///Mobbin]

Also, I had no idea the stock front/rear rotors were so large! Perhaps I truly won't need a BBK.

Front 380x30mm
Rear 370x24mm

Source of Stock Rotor Sizes

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Thanks for the comments and votes all! I am still looking over pictures and should probably check out some cars in person again before deciding but these pics sure make me want to go m4:

dr2ray's Mineral Gray M4

Build of the day:
M4, 6MT, Mineral Gray, Cloth Seats, Carbon roof, 19's (just in case BBK), and Harmon Kardon - MSRP $67,775

I also really like Alpine White for a track focused car. Then I keep going back and forth on 6MT vs DCT but highly prefer 6MT on the streets and just think I'll regret not going manual down the road.

My last 4 cars: 6MT -> DCT -> PDK -> 6MT

It's a real struggle bc I am fairly certain I would prefer the DCT at the track. Thoughts on DCT vs 6MT at the track?

Tough call on the transmission. In theory the DCT should be quicker on the track despite the slight weight penalty. I think it's really close to a wash though, partially due to enormous amount of torque the S55 has. My last track day was on a 2.25 mile course and there were only 2 upshifts per lap, never downshifted to 2nd gear. There's a thread in this section where DCT vs. manual on the track is discussed at length.

Agree stock steels are plenty good enough. Just need the right pads, maybe ss lines and higher temp fluid.

Another big question for you is M adaptive or passive suspension? Are you planning on coil-overs

[///Mobbin]

Votes are currently tied at 4 to 4!

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Tough call on the transmission. In theory the DCT should be quicker on the track despite the slight weight penalty. I think it's really close to a wash though, partially due to enormous amount of torque the S55 has. My last track day was on a 2.25 mile course and there were only 2 upshifts per lap, never downshifted to 2nd gear. There's a thread in this section where DCT vs. manual on the track is discussed at length.

Agree stock steels are plenty good enough. Just need the right pads, maybe ss lines and higher temp fluid.

Another big question for you is M adaptive or passive suspension? Are you planning on coil-overs

Thanks for the perspective and the pointer, I'll be sure to check out that thread! Then if PFC 08's are available those would probably be my first pad of choice. And I just bought some Pagid RS-29's for my S4, so I'll know if I like those soon too. Also, I currently flush my brake fluid between events with a Motive and just switched to Motul 600.

I guess I am still on the fence for the suspension too. I really want coilovers, but not sure I would do that right away so maybe the M adaptive suspension would be a better starting point. The only downside to that is it seems like you have to code it out or install a harness that disables m adaptive when you do install coilovers.

[nicknaz]

I think the M3 with DCT, 18s, base brakes and passive suspension gives you the most options for "staging" things.

You can get aftermarket wheels later, you can swap the calipers from CCB option later, and you don't have to pay extra to disable the adaptive suspension when you modify (and engineer Biermann's personal car is passive suspension)

If worse comes to worse and for some reason the car doesn't meet expectations you can just keep it around as a daily (4 doors, automatic) or give it to the sig other

(I'm biased, that's how I rationalized my order...)

Edit: link to the other thread with Biermann interview http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=984109

[CanAutM3]

I wonder why so many voted M3 ?

The question on the poll is for a dedicated track car. Not which one looks the best. I think folks are mixing in their personal preference, especially regarding esthetics.

For a dedicated track car, every ounce of performance counts, and here, the M4 has the advantage (lower weight, lower Cg and lower drag). The M3's only advantage is its marginnaly lower cost.

If I were to get an F8X dedicated for the track, it would be a bare bone 6MT M4, CF roof, cloth seats (race buckets to replace stock seats), 18" wheels (new and wider 18" wheels to go on), base iron rotors and zero options, not even EDC (coil overs will be fitted). With all the unnecessary stuff taken out and a full cage added 3200~3300lb with a full tank should be achievable.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I think the M3 with DCT, 18s, base brakes and passive suspension gives you the most options for "staging" things.

You can get aftermarket wheels later, you can swap the calipers from CCB option later, and you don't have to pay extra to disable the adaptive suspension when you modify (and engineer Biermann's personal car is passive suspension)

If worse comes to worse and for some reason the car doesn't meet expectations you can just keep it around as a daily (4 doors, automatic) or give it to the sig other

(I'm biased, that's how I rationalized my order...)

Thanks for the input, if the passive suspension is good enough for Biermann then it's good enough for me! I am planning on coilovers anyway so why create a problem when it comes time to disable ADS.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I wonder why so many voted M3 ?

The question on the poll is for a dedicated track car. Not which one looks the best. I think folks are mixing in their personal preference, especially regarding esthetics.

For a dedicated track car, every ounce of performance counts, and here, the M4 has the advantage (lower weight, lower Cg and lower drag). The M3's only advantage is its marginnaly lower cost.

If I were to get an F8X dedicated for the track, it would be a bare bone 6MT M4, CF roof, cloth seats (race buckets to replace stock seats), 18" wheels (new and wider 18" wheels to go on), base iron rotors and zero options, not even EDC (coil overs will be fitted). With all the unnecessary stuff taken out and a full cage added 3200~3300lb with a full tank should be achievable.

All points well received, thanks. Okay, I am settled on the passive suspension now. And you have me thinking again on 18's vs 19's. The stock front/rear rotors are certainly sufficient in size and the stock calipers have the quick-swap windows/openings, so the BBK upgrade seems unlikely. Then a lot of folks seem to be going for an 18" set of track wheels/tires. Also, I could always sell my 18-inch sets down the road if I absolutely had to upgrade the BBK to something that would no longer fit. I think I am back on 18's for today at least!

[///Mobbin]

Voting is tied again at 5 vs 5!

I saw a new Mineral Gray M4 in my parking garage at work today, it looked amazing and thus MGM is the color of the day again!

Build of the day:
M4, 6MT, Mineral Gray, Cloth Seats, Carbon Roof, Passive Suspension, 18's, and Harmon Kardon - MSRP $66,575

This is turning into quite the stripper/track build, I like it!

[nicknaz]

Check out that review where a magazine put the f80 against an old school e30 m3 touring car. The looked at the data and the dct shifts were actually a key reason why the f80 was able to (barely) beat the e30 lap times. I think some similar data is being shown in the dct vs 6mt thread.

Personally, for a track car I think dct is very interesting.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Check out that review where a magazine put the f80 against an old school e30 m3 touring car. The looked at the data and the dct shifts were actually a key reason why the f80 was able to (barely) beat the e30 lap times. I think some similar data is being shown in the dct vs 6mt thread.

Personally, for a track car I think dct is very interesting.

Good call, I remember reading that a few months back and think I have that magazine at home actually (was it a caged white e30 m3?), will have to check it out again. I wasn't thinking dct vs 6mt at the time so perhaps there is more to be gleamed from the article now.