[Tomnavigator]

This is my opinion as to why diesel cars will never become main stream in the United States and why diesel sales account for about 1/2 of the cars in Europe.

People will only buy diesel vehicles if they see an advantage to owning the diesel vehicle. It is pure economics why diesel cars will never become main stream in the United States. You have to pay more for the diesel version of a vehicle than the gasoline version of the same vehicle. The cost premium for a diesel vehicle is usually several thousand dollars. The primary reason people want a diesel vehicle is for the fuel saving of the diesel.

In Europe the price of diesel fuel is 10 to 15 percent lower than the price of gasoline. In addition the diesel version of the vehicle gets about 25 percent better fuel mileage. 10 percent fuel price plus 25 percent fuel mileage savings results in a 35 percent operating cost savings. It takes about $6,000 in fuel purchased to save the $2,000 purchase premium. Cheaper fuel and getter mileage add up to significant savings for diesel. In Europe the fuel savings easily saves the owner more than what the premium they paid for the diesel version of the vehicle in two or three years of ownership.

Now compare this to buying a diesel in the United States. Diesel fuel costs around 15 percent more than gasoline. Since diesel fuel costs more than gasoline, the fuel savings of diesel is offset and it takes significantly longer for the buyer to get their purchase premium back. The 15 percent higher fuel price off sets most of the 25 percent fuel mileage advantage of diesel. This results in only a 10 percent savings in operating cost for diesel owners (25 percent mileage minus 15 percent cost equals 10 percent net savings). The diesel owner will have to purchase $20,000 of fuel to save the $2,000 purchase premium. This will take six to eight years for the average diesel owner to get his purchase premium back to break even in the United States. Most people don't keep their cars much longer than 6 to 8 years. Therefore, there is no net savings to buy a diesel car. Diesel cars will never get 50 percent market penetration in the United States as long as the diesel price is significantly higher than the price of gasoline.

Why does diesel cost more in the United States? One answer you will hear is that diesel fuel does not sell near the volume as gasoline so the price is higher. Here are the facts. 1) Diesel is cheaper to manufacture because it takes less processing to convert crude oil to diesel than gasoline. Diesel fuel is an intermediate step between crude oil and gasoline; 2) The United States is the largest exporter of diesel fuel in the world (yes we export diesel fuel) We export 100,000 barrels of diesel per day. Look it up. 3) From 1900 until about 10 years ago, diesel fuel prices were about 10 percent cheaper than gasoline in the United States; 4) One excuse for diesel costing more than gasoline is that recent environmental laws now require sulphur to be removed from diesel and diesel processing costs are now higher. New environmental laws now require sulphur to be removed from gasoline also. Diesel should cost less than gasoline in the United States. It is cheaper everywhere else in the world.

Now more of my opinion: I think the price diesel fuel is higher than the price of gasoline in the United States because the primary use of diesel fuel in the United States is the trucking industry. The trucking industry has no choice about purchasing the fuel. They have to buy the fuel if they are going to stay in business. They pass the cost on to their customers. Therefore the oil industry can charge more for diesel and make a larger profit on it per gallon. Most gasoline is used by the general public. When price of gasoline goes up we drive less and consumption goes down. This keeps the cost of gasoline under control. The oil industry can not raise prices without effecting the quantity of gasoline sold.

I drive diesel vehicles because I drive 140 miles a day to work and my wife drives 100 miles per day to work. I purchased my diesel vehicles used and can save money with diesels. I would never buy a new diesel and pay the diesel vehicle purchase premium with diesel fuel costing more than gasoline.

[montr]

Diesel is tax more than gasoline in the US. For example, in GA, diesel tax is $0.545 per gallon and gasoline tax is $0.4493 per gallon.

In Europe, the tax on fuel are much higher and gasoline is taxed more than diesel.

http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-g...ics/fuel-taxes

[Tomnavigator]

The link provided by "Montr" shows the national average tax difference between diesel and gasoline is $0.0525 per gallon. Diesel is taxed higher by slightly over 5 cents per gallon on average. The logic for diesel being taxed higher is because most diesel is used by 18 wheelers and 18 wheelers ( 80,000 pounds vs 4,000 pounds for cars) do much more damage to highways than cars. The fuel tax is supposed to be used for highways.
This is less than 3 % of the price difference between gasoline and diesel.

[temporaptor]

I agree with the price of diesel vehicles should come down.
but as for fuel prices this is what we have in California.

California state tax and federal tax combined are
$.484 total tax for gasoline
$.374 total tax for Diesel
add $.02 for underground fuel storage and 8% sales tax for my county
https://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/tax_rates_stfd.htm

Current fuel price as of today in San Bernardino County at a Chevron by my house.

$3.59 reg
$3.67 mid
$3.75 prem
$2.93 D

[shnaggs]

Remember when diesel was cheaper than gas, I mean by a lot!!! My first vehicle was a ford e350 van with the power stroke diesel in it. Loved that thing and beat it to hell and back. Diesel at that point was $.89 /g I don't remember what gas was, maybe $1.30. But I think the majore thing that sky rocketed diesel price was the switch to ULSD. Diesel back in the day was a cheap, easy to manufacture, crude oil bastard child. But with the onset of ULSD, the manufacturing process has gotten much more technical. Plus the new additive package they had to make for the fuel to get some of its lubricity back. That all jacked the price of diesel up passed gas prices.

[Persian Whisperjet]

California may be telling since it's not that diesel is cheap there so much as that the regs make their formulation of gas very expensive. And that is the way of the future, right? Gas is only going to cost more as more states require reformulated versions. Also, we may export some diesel but we also import a lot of it, so geography is important -- when I was in Mississippi and Louisiana recently (near the big refineries and import sites) diesel was $2.25 per gallon.

[melonbread]

You drive 140 miles a day on your 335d? How many miles do you expect the d to last you before retiring? 200k? 300k?

[Tomnavigator]

My diesel vehicles are as follows: 1) 2001 Chevy HD2500 with duramax; 2) 2004 VW touareg V10; 3) 2004 vw Passat 2.0L TDI; 4) 2006 VW Beetle 1.9L TDI; 5) 2010 BMW 3.0L 335D. Normally, my wife drives the 2006 Beetle to work and I drive the 2004 Passat. Her beetle has 128k and my Passat has 184k on it. The beetle gets 38mpg mostly interstate driving. My Passat gets 43 - 44 mpg mostly two lane highway driving though 4 towns. I get above fuel mileage with my Passat because I don't drive aggressively, don't speed, and try to coast to under 30 mph at stop signs and lights before using the brakes. Coasting doesn't work in towns. I have the original brake pads on the Passat will probably need to replace the pads at around 250k. The Passat has a 18 gallon tank and I can always drive over 700 miles on a tank of fuel. But, I fill it up every weekend with over 1/4 tank left. I work 4 days a week and drive 560 miles to work each week.

I record the gallons of fuel and miles driven every week and fill up at home every weekend. I live in a rural area and have two 600 gallon diesel storage tanks at my house. I fill them once a year around (Dec - March) when I think fuel prices have bottomed out for the winter. This year I paid $2.10/gal to fill the two tanks. So I know that my fuel will cost $2.10 for 2015. I also use this fuel to fuel my diesel zero turn mower and two diesel tractors.

I bought the BMW 335D (50k miles on it for $19,000) recently and won't drive it to work until I resolve the potential Carbon Build Up issues and until I get at least 250k on my Passat. I don't think the Passat will be worn out at 250k, I just want to start driving the 335D. The power and fuel mileage of the BMW amaze me. I drove the 335D to work for a month (4 weeks) to see what fuel mileage I would get with this vehicle. I filled it up weekly on Friday. The worst fuel mileage (for a tank of fuel) was 40.5 mpg. The best fuel mileage was 42 mpg. I wish the 335D had a 20 gallon tank. I like having at least 1/4 tank of fuel left when I fill up each weekend and driving 560 miles per week to work leaves me too close to empty at the end of each week for me to be comfortable.

I believe the CBU (Carbon Build Up) problem results from the combination of oil and soot in the intake system. Soot comes from EGR (exhaust gas recirculation). The oil comes from PCV (positive crankcase ventilation). The oil and soot mix forming a pasty buildup that hardens with heat. Elimination of either the oil or soot should eliminate the CBU. I have not heard of any way to eliminate the EGR cheaply, easily, and without setting SES (Service Engine Soon) lights. Therefore, my current plan is to remove the PCV gases and oil from the intake. This can be done with a few hours work, under $150 and without setting SES lights.

[melonbread]

I bought 335d cpo over vw as my commuter. I drive 100 miles each way at 75mph - 80mph and average 34mpg so far. I plan to drive the car to ground... haven't found a diesel independent dealer near me.

[dixy2k]

I found a few flawed remarks in the first post.

Diesel is byproduct of refining gasoline. It is what's left over.

Diesel prices in EU are now the same as gasoline.

The price premium you pay for the car is not lost, you will recoup that when you sell it as diesels retain their value better.

If a more expensive car will depreciate at the same rate as a lower priced one, it will still be more expensive as a second hand car. Therefore the premium paid for the new diesel car does not matter much.

The demand-supply rule states if a product is in great demand the price will go up. You need to also consider the big trucks, farm equipment and construction trucks only use diesel fuel. Not just VW, MB and BMW. Look at the entire supply-demand picture. Watch the weekly gasoline and diesel supply.

Diesel is taxed more than gasoline. It takes a lot of refining to clean it up (very little sulfur content), not like in the past when it had a brown color and nobody cared about the sulfur content.

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by temporaptor

I agree with the price of diesel vehicles should come down.
but as for fuel prices this is what we have in California.

California state tax and federal tax combined are
$.484 total tax for gasoline
$.374 total tax for Diesel
add $.02 for underground fuel storage and 8% sales tax for my county
https://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/tax_rates_stfd.htm

Current fuel price as of today in San Bernardino County at a Chevron by my house.

$3.59 reg
$3.67 mid
$3.75 prem
$2.93 D

I was actually surprised by this when I came down to SoCal. The prices out here are $3.15 for reg, and $2.95 for diesel. Out on Long Island, the prices were $2.53 for reg, and $3.60 for diesel.

[ptpending]

excise duty on diesel fuel in europe is lower than gas because almost all goverment and business car diesel
diesel car is cost more than gasoline because it was more complicated (high pressure pump, turbo, injector etc). Newest gasoline cars also have high pressure fuel system, turbo, injectors. So the should cost similar to diesel cars.

[Tomnavigator]

I want to thank everyone for replying to my original posting. I started this thread hoping to get everyone thinking and it is working. I would respectfully like to disagree with several of dixy2k's statements of flaws in my original posting.

1) dixy2k states that diesel is a by product of making gasoline and it is what is left over. If this is true, then I ask when did waste (what is left over) become more valuable than the product you want to make? Think about this statement. Waste product is not wanted (therefore cheap). That is why you call it waste. The fact is that diesel costs more than gasoline.

2) I did not know what the difference in price was in Europe and knew someone would call me on it if I made up numbers. so I googled the average current price of gasoline and diesel in Europe to find out what the price difference is. The average current price difference is almost exactly 10 percent across Europe with diesel being cheaper. The price of diesel in the US typically runs 15 percent higher than gasoline. This number I did not look up at the time of my original posting. But I think most people will agree that diesel usually runs about 15 percent higher on average. I just looked up the price difference between diesel and gasoline on the US government Energy Information Administration web site. The March 2015 average price for diesel was $2.90. The March average price for unleaded was $2.46. Diesel averaged 17.9 percent more.

3) The closest BMW to the 335D is the 335I. I used the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) guide to determine the current average retail price of a 2010 BMW 335I and a 2010 BMW 335D. The current average retail price of the 335I is $24,000. The current average retail price of the 2010 335D is $23,750. The 335D originally cost more than the 335I and is now worth $250 less. I think the statement that diesels hold their value better is a statement of the past and is now a myth. Diesels don't hold value like they did in the past when diesel fuel was cheaper than gasoline. It was easier to pay more for a diesel car when you could see that the fuel was cheaper and it got better fuel mileage. People don't see much advantage to buying a diesel if it gets 25 percent better fuel mileage but the fuel costs 15 percent more. If the public does not perceive an advantage to a diesel, they won't pay more for a diesel new or used. You won't save significant money buying a diesel vehicle unless you put a tremendous amount of miles on the vehicle. Add in the smell of getting fuel on you when you fill up and add in the hassles of finding diesel stations vs gasoline stations and people would rather gasoline cars.

Before you tell me that diesel is easy to find, I want to tell you that I drove my Touareg diesel to Yellowstone a couple of years ago. I almost ran out of fuel on a Sunday in Wyoming because I could not a station open that sold diesel. I drove over 150 miles through 4 small towns trying to find a station that sold diesel. I found gas stations open but none sold diesel. I was lucky that I started looking for fuel when I had between 1/4 and 1/2 tank or I would have run out. It does not take very many instances like this and you are ready to sell your diesel.

I just ran the figures on the breakeven of the purchase premium on buying a diesel. I used for comparison the new price for a 2010 335D vs 2010 335I. I used original sticker price numbers from Automobile Magazine. The sticker price of a 2010 335D was $3,600 more than a 335I. But the 335I came with a manual transmission. The diesel still cost $2,300 more when both are equipped with automatic transmissions. Using the following assumptions. Gasoline price $3.30 Diesel price $3.75. DEF fill up every 10,000 miles at a cost of $25 (this is cheap for a DEF fill). Fuel mileage of 36 mpg for the 335D and 26 mpg for the 335I. I used the highway mileage rating for both. The fuel savings of the diesel will pay you back the $2,300 cost premium for purchasing the diesel in 110,000 miles. Note: This is when you will break even. Please note that if you only drive in the city using 23 mpg for the 335d and 17 mpg for the 335I, the miles you have to drive to break even will about 80,000 miles. Therefore, typical breakeven will be between 80,000 and 110,000 miles.

Now assume you didn't pay cash for your vehicle. You borrowed the additional $2,300 at 5% interest per year for 5 years. The last money you will pay back is the additional money you borrowed plus the interest on the additional $2,300. In five years there will be $600 interest on the $2,300. Now your break even for buying the diesel will be 130,000 miles (using highway mileage).

I have 5 diesel vehicles and drive a lot of miles per year. Diesel works for me because of my miles driven and I buy them used. I paid $19,000 for my 2010 335D with 50,000 miles.

I again will state that Diesel will never get anywhere near a 50 percent market penetration in the US unless the economics of diesel fuel change. Most people borrow money to purchase a vehicle and their primary concern is the monthly payment. They don't want to pay more for the vehicle if it will take them 5 to 7 years to break even on the diesel purchase premium when they see the cost of the fuel 30 to 45 cents per gallon more. Most people don't analyze things in detail. They say. "Why should I pay more for a diesel vehicle when I can see that the fuel cost so much more." They are also saying that it is harder to find diesel, diesels stink, don't have much power, and cost more to work on.

The public won't start demanding diesels in the US until diesel and gasoline prices are about the same. People would prefer to buy a hybrid if they spend more for a vehicle to get high fuel mileage. After all, driving a few miles on a battery without using gas sounds so appealing.

[Quasimodem]

Originally Posted by Tomnavigator

1) dixy2k states that diesel is a by product of making gasoline and it is what is left over. If this is true, then I ask when did waste (what is left over) become more valuable than the product you want to make? Think about this statement. Waste product is not wanted (therefore cheap). That is why you call it waste. The fact is that diesel costs more than gasoline.

I looked at this a while back and I came to the conclusion that it is better to say that the process used to refine crude results in both diesel and gasoline. Labeling one as merely a by product implies that there is only one way to process crude, and I believe that is not the case -- different processing can be used to result in different proportions of each.

I think there was an argument against diesel floating around which went kinda like this -- it takes two barrels of oil to produce one gallon of diesel, but only one barrel of oil to produce one gallon of gasoline, therefore gasoline is more economical despite the its additional cost of greater refining required -- or something like that.

Well, the problem with that argument is that the current refining methods in the US focus on gasoline production and are not designed to generate diesel efficiently. So yes, because most US refineries use processes that focus on producing gasoline -- diesel could be seen as merely a by product.

So basically, one fuel is a by product if that is what the system is set up to do.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Tomnavigator

2) ...
The price of diesel in the US typically runs 15 percent higher than gasoline. This number I did not look up at the time of my original posting. But I think most people will agree that diesel usually runs about 15 percent higher on average. I just looked up the price difference between diesel and gasoline on the US government Energy Information Administration web site. The March 2015 average price for diesel was $2.90. The March average price for unleaded was $2.46. Diesel averaged 17.9 percent more.

3) ... The current average retail price of the 2010 335D is $23,750. The 335D originally cost more than the 335I and is now worth $250 less. I think the statement that diesels hold their value better is a statement of the past and is now a myth. .

You have to compare PREMIUM unleaded prices, not regular unleaded prices to diesel prices. After all, that's what BMW recommends. The shift of $0.30 makes things basically equal in the price comparison.

WY is a both a good and bad place to look for diesel. I re-fueled in WY twice a couple weeks ago, in the smallest eye-blink places around (Farson, pop 313, and Baggs, pop 420). Not sure why you had problems; maybe it was because it was a Sunday. Also, range on a 335d is around 600 miles, which would take me entirely across the state; Tiguan isn't nearly that far IIRC?

The retail price of the 335d is low because everyone recognizes it has special problems, being a test of the technology and that technology having problems. Statistics of a singular entity in a class are not reliable, only statistics on an entire class - ie all diesel vehicles. Also in the case of the 335d, almost none of them sold new for anywhere close to the MSRP - they were discounted heavily, which fact is well known to both retail and wholesale buyers, and that does affect the used-car price making your comparison flawed (in the case of mine, a $4500 "eco credit" applied.)

[montr]

The best thing about owning a 335d is that I have test driven almost every type of car and SUV (except for the 7 series) made by BMW. I also see my SA and the service manager on a regular basis.

For example, this week I drove a 2015 535i for 2 days while they fixed the crank pulley failure and the throttle actuator.

[dixy2k]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_distillation


http://autotraveler.ru/en/spravka/fu...l#.VTx-RqbE1NM



3) Look at all the other brands of diesel here in US and you will see that only BMW diesels have plummeted in value. I wonder why...
Chevy, Ford, RAM, VW, MB diesels

A 2002 Dodge RAM diesel is more expensive to buy today than a 335d.

[Pierre Louis]

US is an exporter of refined petroleum and diesel is what is most in demand. See http://www.cnbc.com/id/100943620

The product of choice for export is diesel because margins are much higher and demand is growing, and U.S. refiners have an advantage over foreign counterparts. Natural gas to fire up refineries is abundant and much cheaper in the U.S., and the expansion of U.S. oil production has made oil more plentiful and cheaper than if refiners had to buy it on the world market.

PL

[Pierre Louis]

Diesel and jet fuel, the so called “middle distillates,” have been the most profitable products for refiners over recent history, so refiners have been working to increase their yields, generally by reducing yields of gasoline and fuel oil. In the U.S., for example, diesel yields have risen from 26.4% in 2005 to 28.4% in 2010 and to 30.6% in 2013.

http://fuelsinstitute.org/ResearchAr...eport_PIRA.pdf

[bvanlieu]

OP: I agree that the ROI is not what it could be, but also you really should not be too heavy into the ROI on a BMW comparison: that would be best served comparing a TDI passat vs. the 1.8 TSI where you are looking at a 20-25K car new, 30is vs 40ish MPG yada yada.

Its tricky to compare the 3 series. The 335d was more MSRP (and probably partially why it sold so poorly, along with the stigma) then the 335i, but they don't make a 340i.

That to me is the proper comparison: the N55 is a smooth engine but in stock form is not the torque monster that the D is. A baby 8 in the 3 would level the torque playing field, and also close the gap on the ROI based off of MPG as the 4.4 stuffed into the 3 series (not the M car, the old school 540 engine) in theory would return < 25 MPG HWY.

I think that is why this group of enthusiasts put up with the CBU and other emissions issues of this car: its so damn fun and hard to get an equal to without jumping up to a 540i sport...where you pay 20K more for the car and a lot more for gas

- b

[Tomnavigator]

Don't get me wrong. I love the power and fuel mileage of the 335D. I am 60 and plan to keep my 335D as my retirement car. I just wish we had more diesels to choose from in the US. I don't think there will ever be a significant number of diesel cars to choose from in the US in my life time because of the fuel price differential. I have four other diesel vehicles and don't regret buying any of them.
I agree with Floyderoger's comment that when you compare premium unleaded to diesel, the payback of the purchase premium is quick and the diesel makes sense. Many premium cars use unleaded premim instead of unleaded regular. This is why the premium car manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes will sell a much higher percentage of diesels than the basic car manufacturers such as Ford, Chevrolet, Kia, Mazda, etc. The basic car manufacturers recommend regular unleaded for their vehicles and the payback for the purchase premium takes too long.
I hope I am wrong about diesel vehicle market penetration. I would like to purchase at least one more vehicle and I would like more choices.

[LaserPower]

I doubt diesel will be more popular in the future. Even europe is regretting populating the roads with diesel.

Diesel makes a lot of torque, but low on power as it does not rev very high, and runs out of juice quickly. Not to mention it is quite a bit heavier and dirtier (a RWD 335d is as heavy as my gasoline 335 xdrive). So it seems that the only benefit of diesel is fuel economy, which gasoline engine is catching up too. and diesel fuel price is higher in NA. I doubt diesel will be anymore popular than now. Gasoline and electric hybrid, OTOH, have a higher possibility to be more popular than pure gasoline. They are cleaner, electric motors make max torque instantaneously and have no direct emission and do not make noise, battery technology is improving so they will take less time to charge and power to weight ratio will improve too.