[juan2mini]

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

[G30 B58]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

Only M cars get the 1200 mile service included at no charge IIRC.

Expect a nice sized bill from your dealer.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

Please tell me you did not lease this vehicle.

[Spitz428]

Originally Posted by F32 N55

Only M cars get the 1200 mile service included at no charge IIRC.

Expect a nice sized bill from your dealer.

I have 428i M sport, do I get this break in service free?

[G30 B58]

Originally Posted by Spitz428

I have 428i M sport, do I get this break in service free?

No. Play your cards right, do the "encore" and you might get a free tank of gas.

[murrays]

I did not change the oil or fluids on my '02 e46 at 1200 miles and I've had no issues in 13 years. I've got a 335i en-route from Germany and I wasn't planning on service at 1200 miles.

YMMV

[F30lolz]

If you plan on keeping the car long term then have it done, however, have a indy perform the work as the dealer will charge you the price of a beat up e21 for the work

[435MSport6Speed]

Yes, you are wasting your money.

[stormlv]

This is the first time I've hear of people changing the gearbox & differential fluids at the 1200 mile mark...

I've even heard people saying the changing the oil too early might be detrimental.
There's even a SAE technical paper: http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/

"...The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3000 miles to 15000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval..."

[Spitz428]

Originally Posted by F32 N55

No. Play your cards right, do the "encore" and you might get a free tank of gas.

Yea they said they will already. What else?
so the 1200 mil services is not needed?

[CalCarNut]

I thought the same...well, at least an oil change at the 500mile mark. I did that with my Impala. Swapped out the original oil at 500miles and went Mobil 1 synthetic ever since. that was about 180,000 miles ago...car still runs good and doesn't burn oil. Seems to me changing the 'break-in' oil isn't a bad idea...even if not free.

[justinnum1]

get ready to pay

[CalCarNut]

My dealer gave me a coupon book. Oil change $79.99 there at the dealer. Cheap insurance.

[CalCarNut]

I'm only talking about crankcase oil...not changing every fluid in the car...lol

[Thumper333]

The gearbox and diff is probably a bit extreme, both are closed systems and completely different designs from the engine environment.

On a car you plan to keep a long time swapping the engine oil after 1000 miles is something I have always done. It's an ounce of prevention and some peace of mind.

Originally Posted by stormlv

I've even heard people saying the changing the oil too early might be detrimental.

I've heard lots of things on the internet, just last week I saw a DIY on changing the blinker fluid and muffler bearings on an 83 Corvette.

Yet I still have never seen any conclusive evidence to support such statements. Oil collects dirt, it is also subject to heavy compression and heat. Not only does that assertion fail review on the face of it (here, let me make your lubricant better by adding some dirt) it's kind of hard to hear that old oil is BETTER than new oil and not instantly ask some very logical questions no one can answer.

If it's better to have my old oil say after 5000 miles in my engine than fresh new oil, and in fact to claim new oil is DAMAGING compared to old oil.......why then do we buy new oil? Why is there not a large supply of used oil that enthusiasts are clamoring for?? Tell you what, I'll drain my oil at 5000 miles and you can buy it off me for $20/quart. It's better right?


From the article you linked, I find this part ever more interesting.

The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.

So let's consider those other factors shall we? In the old days with conventional oil and engines the real issue with oil was the breakdown of the molecules and the forming of sludge as they did. Oil was changed because it flat wore out. Synthetic oil (which is actually still made from crude BTW) is designed to resist this breakdown and not to sludge up. This immediately means everyone thinks you can instantly extend oil intervals based on the longevity of the oil. Synthetic's resist breakdown, true, but they still break down. Car's driven to the limits, higher revs, longer heat cycles, etc will increase wear. What happens in reality is we've extended the life of the oil into the realm where we now have to consider the other issue with oils effectiveness; contaminants.

Air is dirty, some places dirtier than others. The air filter stops the big stuff but dirt still gets through, especially if not changed out regularly as well. The oil filter is there to pick up more dirt both from inside the engine and what got past the air filter, but it can only do so much as well. Oil gets through which means there are holes, oil molecules are microscopic.....so are dirt particles. And when an oil filter gets dirty it restricts flow, and under pressure bigger dirt particles will get forced through making bigger holes. Even if we were to stipulate that synthetic oils can resist breakdown for 10, 12, or even 15k miles you must still address the contaminants that reduce it's effectiveness as a lubricant. If you're ever bored, grab some KY and squeeze out a bit in your hand, then dump a tablespoon of sand in there, see how it feels.

In fact, every manual I have ever read states their 'ideal' oil interval and is then immediately followed by the *buts*. Interval will be shorter for vehicles driven in dusty ares, in heavy stop and go traffic, used for short trips, operated in high temperature areas, etc, etc...... Basically the exceptions describe basic everyday life for the vast majority of cars on the road........yet no one ever talks about those. They hear what they want and then just skip off along the yellow brick road.



BTW, a test sample of 3 cars in one location is hardly what I would call scientifically conclusive. LOL

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

Wasting every penny. You are not alone. There are three other people in the world who do this.

[greekcs]

I wait until the low oil pressure light turns on to schedule my oil change.

[juan2mini]

Thanks for the comments, I think? The car is not leased, I bought it & plan to keep it long-term. I have had very good success in the past with this type of service. I am the original owner of a 1988 325 with 167k on it & a 1995 525i with 118k. The cars, both manuals, run great. Both cars were given "aggressive' service schedules. I know I will have to play for the service. BMW always recommended a 1,200 mile service - until it was on their dime. M cars get it, why not mine

[stormlv]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

The gearbox and diff is probably a bit extreme, both are closed systems and completely different designs from the engine environment.

On a car you plan to keep a long time swapping the engine oil after 1000 miles is something I have always done. It's an ounce of prevention and some peace of mind.

Cool - if it works, great!

Originally Posted by Thumper333

I've heard lots of things on the internet, just last week I saw a DIY on changing the blinker fluid and muffler bearings on an 83 Corvette.

You know what they say about not shooting the messenger, right?

Originally Posted by Thumper333

Yet I still have never seen any conclusive evidence to support such statements. Oil collects dirt, it is also subject to heavy compression and heat. Not only does that assertion fail review on the face of it (here, let me make your lubricant better by adding some dirt) it's kind of hard to hear that old oil is BETTER than new oil and not instantly ask some very logical questions no one can answer.

They don't say all old oil (i.e. 100.000 mile oil) works like that.
What they say is that: "These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval. "

I can imagine a situation where the oil composition changed such it actually improved after use.
An analogy would be a wine. A fresh wine is good. Aged wine is even better. 200 year old wine ... well I wouldn't really want to try it.
Even the engine itself follows such a trend in performance increase after a bit of wear. A 0km engine will produce less power than one which went through the break in period. A 200.000 mile engine is also going to perform worse than one just after the break-in.

Originally Posted by Thumper333

If it's better to have my old oil say after 5000 miles in my engine than fresh new oil, and in fact to claim new oil is DAMAGING compared to old oil.......why then do we buy new oil? Why is there not a large supply of used oil that enthusiasts are clamoring for?? Tell you what, I'll drain my oil at 5000 miles and you can buy it off me for $20/quart. It's better right?

Only if you pay over the night shipping

Originally Posted by Thumper333

....
BTW, a test sample of 3 cars in one location is hardly what I would call scientifically conclusive. LOL

I agree a fleet of 3 vehicle hardly constitutes a statistically significant population, but still it's a result that's intriguing and warrants further research (as they state as well).

In any case, I claim no access to supreme knowledge. I showed a paper, in which people actually tried to test something - not base their results on hearsay or anecdotal evidence. Take from it what you wish.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

Thanks for the comments, I think? The car is not leased, I bought it & plan to keep it long-term. I have had very good success in the past with this type of service. I am the original owner of a 1988 325 with 167k on it & a 1995 525i with 118k. The cars, both manuals, run great. Both cars were given "aggressive' service schedules. I know I will have to play for the service. BMW always recommended a 1,200 mile service - until it was on their dime. M cars get it, why not mine

You'll have no problem finding examples such as yours, with even higher mileages, that didn't have their gearbox and differential fluids changed at 1,200 miles. In fact, you'll find it virtually impossible to find cars like that that did have such a service.

[murrays]

Originally Posted by stormlv

I can imagine a situation where the oil composition changed such it actually improved after use.
An analogy would be a wine. A fresh wine is good. Aged wine is even better. 200 year old wine ... well I wouldn't really want to try it.
Even the engine itself follows such a trend in performance increase after a bit of wear. A 0km engine will produce less power than one which went through the break in period. A 200.000 mile engine is also going to perform worse than one just after the break-in.

Indeed, filters (oil & air) get better at removing particles after they are used for some time. If they weren't designed in this manner, they would become too restrictive very quickly.

Originally Posted by stormlv

In any case, I claim no access to supreme knowledge. I showed a paper, in which people actually tried to test something - not base their results on hearsay or anecdotal evidence. Take from it what you wish.

I could also claim that "I still have never seen any conclusive evidence" by ignoring accredited research papers

[drexplode]

you are on the side of the fence that changing fluids makes you feel more comfortable. You can search high and low for a variety of research articles attempting to sway you to the other side or just do it and don't lose any sleep over it. I'm sure anyone one of us as a perspective buyer for your future used car would appreciate the maintenance attention to detail.

Conclusion = do it, keep the paperwork and sell your maintenance dream to someone else when ready.