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      06-29-2015, 10:22 AM   #1
JNoSol
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Warning: This review may upset a few people, as I'm going to say things some of them will not want to hear. If you're just getting started in tracking the F80, read this before making any mods.

Car: F80 - DCT - New PSS Tires - ATe TYP200 Brake Fluid - Passive Suspension - Steel Brakes (no performance mod other than coded Euro MDM)
Track: Raceway Park of the Midlands (RPM)
Setting: Sport + / Sport + / MDM (Euro)

This is my second time on the track with the F80, I didn't want to write a review from the first time. I've done SCCA cones in the past, which really helped me understand the dynamic of the car / weight transfer.

The F8x is a complete beast on the track. Referencing the map below, the first straightaway I hit about 130mph / late braking into the first corner at marker 3 / downshift from 5th to 3rd / and carried through the S turns. After turn 4, it spits me out the corner at 90mph then accelerates to 110mph where I brake again at maker 2.5 to hang "patience corner" turn 5 in 3rd gear. I pushed the rpm up, shift to 4th, then down to 3rd braking at marker 2 to carry through 7th and 8th. Spun up to 95mph, down to 3rd, short brake at marker 2 of turn 9 to shift the weight forward then short brake again before entering 10. Same thing for 12/13 with more speed carried through, while remaining in 3rd.

One of the top instructors took my car on the track, he said it will take him years to extract my car to its maximum potential. He had a big smile after driving it. Here are my thoughts of the F8x.

Chassis: Our car's chassis is more rigid than a Lexus LFA. While planted in my seat, I can feel everything the car is doing. It's simply amazing how quick this car reacts to inputs and without getting upset. The stock chassis takes 40,000nm to flex 1mm, which is almost twice as rigid compared to the Z06. So that means roll bars on an F8x is a RICE mod.


Power: Being able to hit 130mph on the straight of this small track puts it in the Z06 category. The instructors of the E9x M3 top off at 120mph here, stock. There's no need to upgrade the power, unless you drag race or just want bragging rights. Someone else had a 335i with JB4, her car overheated after a couple sessions. She yanked the tune off the rest of the weekend. The fuel quality at the track upset the tune probably. In stock form, my car did fine even with 91 octane. The car's cooling capability continues to impress me. The inter cooler is cold to the touch after a hot 90 degree session. My buddy's S4 supercharger was super hot. There were 2 C7 Z06 on the track, both suffered from overheating and their engines went into limp mode. This means the M3/M4 will smoke the new Z06 in an endurance race.

Suspension: The passive suspension is quite impressive. It's smooth for daily driving, yet stepped up in the corners. It allows just enough roll to have a great weight transfer, especially through the S turns. Despite what many of you think, lowering the car doesn't make it go faster. The M engineers have done their homework here. Unless you're an F1 driver, please don't tell me you "need" better suspension for the F8x. Great suspension is just covering up bad driving techniques. You'll never going to extract the max performance out of these cars. I will consider high-end Club Sport coilovers one day, but for now I'm very happy of how my car dances on the track. I spot checked the tire temp, a tiny bit more camber should help with tire wear but not crucial.

Brakes: After 2 track weekends, I still have 70% brakes left. I'm very impressed with these steel brakes, no fading even after turn one going from 130mph to 65mph late braking. Those who thinks our OEM brake sucks either track more than 4 weekends/yr, running R-Compound Tires, or just simply doing it wrong. The key of braking is either be on it or off of it. Brake with authority, then let off to let the brakes cool between corners. On the last lap, cruise at 65mph and don't touch the brakes. Oh, never touch your hand brakes after a session. You don't need to upgrade the pads unless you run R compound tires. Stock pads are fine, your eye balls want to pop out at hard braking once the PSS tires warm up to 120 degrees.

Tires: After 7x20min sessions, the PSS were still awesome. Cold PSI is 31, then heated up to 155 degrees @ 37.5psi all around. The side walls were stiff and rolled just to the right spot. I wore off about 20% for the weekend (a bit more on the outer edge), not too bad.

Conclusion: The F8x is a well designed car for the track. Little understeer and very predictable oversteer. Unless you're racing for prizes or stay on the track for more than 25min at times, you don't need to upgrade anything before getting on the track. You can drive the F8x scary fast and will pass most road going cars. Once you track for a full year or 4 weekends, then decide what you need to upgrade. I recommend just race compound tires and pads. That's the most bang for your money for track performance. Just keep in mind to use your brakes with authority and take the smoothest lines to go fast with little tire wear.

As for "nannies," I kept mine with Euro MDM. Other instructors kept their M3 at MDM as well. Unless you're an F1 driver, please don't tell me you don't need any "nannies" either. Euro MDM allows the back to kick out just enough to maneuver through tight corners without intervening. If you're about to spin, it will save your ass. You can never react quicker than the computer. Don't be "that guy" on the track who thinks he's too cool for "nannies" and ended up going home on a flatbed.

Smooth = Fast. Learn to drive smoother/faster instead of buying parts to cover up your driving flaws.

I hope this is helpful for the new track guys.

FYI: My signature will always be "novice track level." We're all "novice" until we get paid to drive on the track. I'm faster than some instructors on the track, but that doesn't win me any money. I'm just honing my skills to be faster in my own car, bragging rights mean nothing to me.
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      06-29-2015, 11:18 AM   #2
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Thanks for the post. Always great to hear about others' experiences.

I do think the key here is the completely stock car is fine for "4 weekends or less" per year users (or i think what you are saying are "complete novices")

I feel the base assumption is that at some point Tires and brake pads will need to be changed, and camber plates will help a lot.

The stock pads will smear and leave uneven deposits and the stock pss outside edge will be very worn out in the front. I think when this happens depends on the individual's experience pre m3

Completely agree, car is great stock but tweaks will be needed
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      06-29-2015, 11:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Thanks for the post. Always great to hear about others' experiences.

I do think the key here is the completely stock car is fine for "4 weekends or less" per year users (or i think what you are saying are "complete novices")

I feel the base assumption is that at some point Tires and brake pads will need to be changed, and camber plates will help a lot.

The stock pads will smear and leave uneven deposits and the stock pss outside edge will be very worn out in the front. I think when this happens depends on the individual's experience pre m3

Completely agree, car is great stock but tweaks will be needed
Correct. If you do track your car 4 weekends or more per year, pads/tires/camber should be considered (but don't touch the suspension until after the first year, if you can drive the car stock fast you will be even better with CS suspension). Unlike the E9x M3, you only need -1.5ish camber in front.
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      06-29-2015, 02:05 PM   #4
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jnosol - I don't like you. I won't have any excuse for abysmally slow times.

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      06-29-2015, 02:40 PM   #5
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Thanks a lot for sharing your feedback. It is always fun reading impressions from fellow trackers. The F8X is really a blast to drive on track, glad you enjoyed it .

I'll offer a few counterpoints to ponder:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
It allows just enough roll to have a great weight transfer, especially through the S turns. Despite what many of you think, lowering the car doesn't make it go faster. The M engineers have done their homework here. Unless you're an F1 driver, please don't tell me you "need" better suspension for the F8x. Great suspension is just covering up bad driving techniques. You'll never going to extract the max performance out of these cars. I will consider high-end Club Sport coilovers one day, but for now I'm very happy of how my car dances on the track. I spot checked the tire temp, a tiny bit more camber should help with tire wear but not crucial.
I agree that the stock suspension is a pretty good compromise between street and track use. I will also very likely keep it stock except for camber plates. A few points though:
  • Lowering the car generally does help to increase total grip by reducing weight transfer, the compromise is reduced suspension travel.
  • When installing grippier R-compound tires, the suspension compresses more due to the higher loads the tires can carry. That is when a stiffer suspension becomes more beneficial.
  • Camber plates are almost mandatory for those who track regularly to even out front tire wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Brakes: After 2 track weekends, I still have 70% brakes left. I'm very impressed with these steel brakes, no fading even after turn one going from 130mph to 65mph late braking. Those who thinks our OEM brake sucks either track more than 4 weekends/yr or just simply doing it wrong. The key of braking is either be on it or off of it. Brake with authority, then let off to let the brakes cool between corners. On the last lap, cruise at 65mph and don't touch the brakes. Oh, never touch your hand brakes after a session. You don't need to upgrade the pads unless you run R compound tires. Stock pads are fine, your eye balls want to pop out at hard braking once the PSS tires warm up to 120 degrees.
I was also quite impressed with the performance of the stock street pads. However, they remain street pads. Especially when paired with grippier R-compunds, when pushed hard, they will smear un-even deposit on the discs, will wear down pretty fast and will be more prone to fade.

Note that on the F8X (as with previous generation M3s), the parking brake resides in a drum inside the disc hub, so there is no issues with using the parking brake in the pits after a session..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Tires: After 7x20min sessions, the PSS were still awesome. Cold PSI is 31, then heated up to 155 degrees @ 37.5psi all around. The side walls were stiff and rolled just to the right spot. I wore off about 20% for the weekend, not too bad.
The PSS do just fine at moderate track speeds. However, once you start using more slip angle, they will melt and chunk away on the outer shoulders where they have the "softer" compound. There is just no way around this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
As for "nannies," I kept mine with Euro MDM. Other instructors kept their M3 at MDM as well. Unless you're an F1 driver, please don't tell me you don't need any "nannies" either. Euro MDM allows the back to kick out just enough to maneuver through tight corners without intervening. If you're about to spin, it will save your ass. You can never react quicker than the computer. Don't be "that guy" on the track who thinks he's too cool for "nannies" and ended up going home on a flatbed.

Smooth = Fast. Learn to drive smoother/faster instead of buying parts to cover up your driving flaws.
Even Euro-MDM is pretty intrusive. Don't get fooled by the light in the cluster, it does much more interventions than the flashing light suggests. Have a look at Ti-Jean's video in his E92 with Euro MDM, you can see how much Euro-MDM applies the brakes.

While keeping the nannies on maintains a safety net, there comes a point where the nannies will slow you down and prevent full enjoyment of the great F8X chassis. There is also a risk with keeping the nannies on for too long, that is when the times come to take them off. I have seen way too many "advanced" students have incidents when turning the nannies off because they have been relying on them for so long (overdriving the car).
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      06-29-2015, 02:47 PM   #6
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Good track day summary. I plan on new pads and fluid for my brakes when I start tracking it, as well as a set of R-Comps (mostly so I can not destroy my daily driver tires).

I do have about 25 track days behind me, in my previous car (a twin turbo'ed G35, about 400 rwhp, and a bit lighter than the M4)
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      06-29-2015, 03:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Chassis: Our car's chassis is more rigid than a Lexus LFA. While planted in my seat, I can feel everything the car is doing. It's simply amazing how quick this car reacts to inputs and without getting upset. The stock chassis takes 40,000nm to flex 1mm, which is almost twice as rigid compared to the Z06. So that means roll bars on an F8x is a RICE mod.
Why were you worried that this review may upset some people?

Also, is the M4 chassis really more rigid than the LFA's?
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      06-29-2015, 04:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 90TT View Post
Good track day summary. I plan on new pads and fluid for my brakes when I start tracking it, as well as a set of R-Comps (mostly so I can not destroy my daily driver tires).

I do have about 25 track days behind me, in my previous car (a twin turbo'ed G35, about 400 rwhp, and a bit lighter than the M4)
Thank you. Agreed here, R-Compound and Race Pads go hand in hand. The stock pads will burn up with R-Compound (less slippage). I hope you'll have a good time as I did with mine.
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      06-29-2015, 04:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodengun View Post
jnosol - I don't like you. I won't have any excuse for abysmally slow times.

LOL. You'll have a good time catching up to more powerful cars regardless. I track for a good time. I purposely don't record track times so I don't get caught up in that. I know when I nailed a series of corners when my exit speed is much quicker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Why were you worried that this review may upset some people?

Also, is the M4 chassis really more rigid than the LFA's?
Correct, 40,000nm/mm flex vs 39,130 of the LFA. And 2x more rigid than the Lambo Mucielago.

http://blogs.youwheel.com/2014/04/25...ehensive-list/

Our chassis is designed with racing in mind.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1005164
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      06-29-2015, 04:20 PM   #10
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CanAutM3 Agreed with you. Mod should be considered if you track 4 or more times per year to maximize grip/tire wear. The PSS is good, but do get bit greasy on the last lap of the 20min session so I had to back off from it. OEM brakes combined with R-compound tires aren't a good idea. Always match race pads with race tires. Good point on lowering (slightly). Too much lowering will upset the roll center. Some dedicated track cars actually sit higher than OEM, it varies from chassis to chassis. Our cars are very low in the rear. If you lower the front to fill the gap, you'll have to lower to rear to not upset the weight balance. This is where the average person fail when it comes to lowering their cars.

Thanks for your input.
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      06-29-2015, 04:38 PM   #11
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Glad you had a great time but I don't understand this post.

You talk about technique yet you drive with nannies on - isn't that the exact opposite of learning how to control a car. IMO if you can't catch a car from spinning, you shouldn't be driving at that speed yet. I never understood people who get Rcomps but still rely on driving aid assistance.

PSS - are the M4 PSS any different than other cars because these are awful track tires. Melted mine in 2 sessions.

Suspension setup will enhance the performance if set up correctly, as well as confidence. Plus some like suspension setup more biased towards the track vs the street.

Lastly, yes we are all "novices" because we do not get paid, but there are people with dramatic differences in skill levels at any track day, you can't just lump them all together right?
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      06-29-2015, 05:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
Glad you had a great time but I don't understand this post.

You talk about technique yet you drive with nannies on - isn't that the exact opposite of learning how to control a car. IMO if you can't catch a car from spinning, you shouldn't be driving at that speed yet. I never understood people who get Rcomps but still rely on driving aid assistance.

PSS - are the M4 PSS any different than other cars because these are awful track tires. Melted mine in 2 sessions.

Suspension setup will enhance the performance if set up correctly, as well as confidence. Plus some like suspension setup more biased towards the track vs the street.

Lastly, yes we are all "novices" because we do not get paid, but there are people with dramatic differences in skill levels at any track day, you can't just lump them all together right?
There many instructors with E9x M3 on the track running with MDM. I have a buddy who has a dedicated E36 track car, but still uses MDM for his new M3 on the track. MDM is not complete nannies, it's in between 0 computers and full intervention. I don't rely MDM for cornering, but it's there in case my rear kick out to the point of non-recovery. It's a lot cheaper to learn my car's threshold with a safety net. If MDM kicked in, I learned to tune it down one notch for next time. Code Euro MDM, it allows the rear to kick out much more compared to U.S. spec. The last time I checked, there isn't a rule against using MDM on the track. You might as well argue that tracking a car with DCT isn't racing because you're not using toe/heel. (I get those type of guys giving me crap as well) Embrace technology, it's there to help you go faster safer.

Once a driver knows his/her car very well (about 6-8 weekends), then turning all nannies off is acceptable. It's laughable to see these guys who think they're badasses not using MDM and hit the wall on the first weekend out with the car they just bought.

You melted your PSS after 2 sessions? Are you drifting? PSS is the highest rated trackable street tires on the market. I only used 20% after 7x20min sessions. That's not driving like a grandma either. 130mph straights, late braking, late apex. BMW does have specific PSS, but it's not far off from the ones off the shelf.

Unless you have well paid sponsors and drive for living, you're still a student of driving. You're still learning new things every-time you hit the track. I call myself a novice golfer as well. The last time I looked in the mail, Nike hasn't sent me a check for using their golf clubs.
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      06-29-2015, 05:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
There many instructors with E9x M3 on the track running with MDM. I have buddies who has a dedicated E36 track car, but still uses MDM for his new M3 on the track. MDM is not complete nannies, it's in between 0 computers and full intervention. I don't rely MDM for cornering, but it's there in case my rear kick out to the point of non-recovery. It's a lot cheaper to learn my car's threshold with a safety net. If MDM kicked in, I learned to tune it down one notch for next time. Code Euro MDM, it allows the rear to kick out much more compared to U.S. spec. The last time I checked, there isn't a rule against using MDM on the track. You might as well argue that tracking a car with DCT isn't racing because you're not using toe/heel. (I get those type of guys giving me crap as well) Embrace technology, it's there to help you go faster safer.

Once a driver knows his/her car very well (about 6-8 weekends), then turning all nannies off is acceptable. It's laughable to see these guys who think they're badasses not using MDM and hit the wall on the first weekend out with the car they just bought.

Unless you have a well paid sponsor and drive for living, you're still a student of driving. You're still learning new things every-time you hit the track. I call myself a novice golfer as well. The last time I looked in the mail, Nike hasn't sent me a check for using their golf clubs.
I agree I am always learning believe me, that's what I go there for. Hence my attempts to drift full turns, and trying different things to see how a car behaves - all to become a better driver.

But I disagree, I say you turn off MDM and start by driving slow. I'm not in the disagree with DCT camp, because I'd have fun with it as well. You start with MDM and start to get faster, then you get used to driving at a certain speed and when you turn it off, that's when big mistakes happen. Therefore, I personally believe in starting with it off. Nothing wrong with going slow at first but learning how to control a car. It pays off.
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      06-29-2015, 05:08 PM   #14
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Not all students are the same level though. Some are basically in kindergarten and will never graduate from kindergarten while others are at Ivy League college level.
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      06-29-2015, 05:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
I agree I am always learning believe me, that's what I go there for. Hence my attempts to drift full turns, and trying different things to see how a car behaves - all to become a better driver.

But I disagree, I say you turn off MDM and start by driving slow. I'm not in the disagree with DCT camp, because I'd have fun with it as well. You start with MDM and start to get faster, then you get used to driving at a certain speed and when you turn it off, that's when big mistakes happen. Therefore, I personally believe in starting with it off. Nothing wrong with going slow at first but learning how to control a car. It pays off.
Each person will have their own school of thoughts. I will not agree nor disagree with you. My logic of going fast is to first find your car's limitation. With MDM, you'll push the car hard until MDM kicks in which is when you know you've reached the car's threshold. Your school of thought is to turn all nannies off, then slowly find the limit of the car by going a tiny bit faster each lap. With that route, it just takes much more time and patient to find the car's limitation. There's nothing wrong with that either. I'm not very patient, I'd rather find my car's limits safely/quickly and note them.
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      06-29-2015, 05:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Each person will have their own school of thoughts. I will not agree nor disagree with you. My logic of going fast is to first find your car's limitation. With MDM, you'll push the car hard until MDM kicks in which is when you know you've reached the car's threshold. Your school of thought is to turn all nannies off, then slowly find the limit of the car by going a tiny bit faster each lap. With that route, it just takes much more time and patient to find the car's limitation. There's nothing wrong with that either. I'm not very patient, I'd rather find my car's limits quickly and note them.
Except you will know how it feels in the seat progressively and gradually build up your oh shit moment reactions by going slow but intentionally upsetting the car at times to experience different things.

MDM will tell you when but it won't allow you to practice how to react.

Patient pays off!! I'm a very impatient guy too.

Me noob:


Me now (still noob but a year later):


Tremendous difference.
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      06-29-2015, 05:43 PM   #17
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Appreciate the review and I agree with a lot of you're opinions, but will disagree on using the nannies for more than a day or two unless you're a beginner. Nothing new here, it's really the two different schools of thought that have been around for awhile.

M3 Number 86: great car control, but I think you're an extreme example. Most noobs wouldn't have the guts to get their car that loose on their second track day.
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      06-29-2015, 05:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Not all students are the same level though. Some are basically in kindergarten and will never graduate from kindergarten while others are at Ivy League college level.
I would say you differentiate between paid and non-paid as professionals, and amateurs. Kind of like every other sport does.

With regards to skill levels, there are amateurs in any sport that are as good as, or better than, many of the professionals. You call those guys advanced amateurs. Or skilled amateurs, or whatever adjective you want. You call the crappy professionals....losers. heh.
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      06-29-2015, 05:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dave 90TT View Post
I would say you differentiate between paid and non-paid as professionals, and amateurs. Kind of like every other sport does.

With regards to skill levels, there are amateurs in any sport that are as good as, or better than, many of the professionals. You call those guys advanced amateurs. Or skilled amateurs, or whatever adjective you want. You call the crappy professionals....losers. heh.
Agree - my comments were only regarding amateurs. Some amateurs get paid right? Like those casting couch videos?
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      06-29-2015, 06:01 PM   #20
JNoSol
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Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
Except you will know how it feels in the seat progressively and gradually build up your oh shit moment reactions by going slow but intentionally upsetting the car at times to experience different things.

MDM will tell you when but it won't allow you to practice how to react.

Patient pays off!! I'm a very impatient guy too.
Nice. That explains how you're going through a set of PSS in 2 sessions.

FYI: Euro MDM does allow the rear kick out enough for you to intervene. It gives you a chance to correct it before kicking in. Best of both worlds. I absolutely love it.
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      06-29-2015, 06:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Nice. That explains how you're going through a set of PSS in 2 sessions.

FYI: Euro MDM does allow the rear kick out enough for you to intervene. It gives you a chance to correct it before kicking in. Best of both worlds. I absolutely love it.
I'm going through PSS quickly also and am not intentionally drifting. I am planning to swap to RE11 (I think RE11, ZII, RE71R, are all examples of trackable street tires that are better than PSS by the way.. PSS has more void area of hydroplaning resistance on the street, but that's the only advantage I'd give to it)

A key point that CanAutM3 made is that even euro mdm is making corrections that don't flash the TC light. i.e. you might getting incorrect information of what inputs it takes to go over the traction limit
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      06-29-2015, 06:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardZed View Post

M3 Number 86: great car control, but I think you're an extreme example. Most noobs wouldn't have the guts to get their car that loose on their second track day.


That's why slowly but surely - I just make the car get out of control on safe zones when cars aren't around. :thumbsup
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