[moldcad]

I already posted a thread on small but annoying peculiarity of the M235i seats which - with a rather short person like myself - prevents to use the "dead pedal" without the tight crossing over the left side bolster rather than rest next and along it. This position can cause real leg fatigue after a long trip; so much so that I'm decided to either widen the dead pedal so my leg can reach it while semi-stretched forward naturally (without pulling to the left which results in crossing the bolster) - or modify the seat rails so that it "oriented" more to the left than it currently does.

Another problem I have with my driving position (probably also because I'm rather short - just 170 cm) is that - after lowering the seat (and I hate sitting high as it elevates entire car's CoG and prevents me from fast and efficient steering), I just can't see the inner side of a left curve I'm entering because the external rearview mirror is then exactly at my eyes level! So my question to you guys is: with your driving position, is your head/eyes high enough to see over the mirror?

[den525]

This is confusing... I'm 170cm and I don't have that problem... I easily found the perfect driving position... As low as possible, no problem accelerating to the fullest and can rest my leg on the "dead pedal" comfortably.

In terms of visibility it's not necessary to "see everything" driving is all about feel of the car.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by moldcad

I already posted a thread on small but annoying peculiarity of the M235i seats which - with a rather short person like myself - prevents to use the "dead pedal" without the tight crossing over the left side bolster rather than rest next and along it. This position can cause real leg fatigue after a long trip; so much so that I'm decided to either widen the dead pedal so my leg can reach it while semi-stretched forward naturally (without pulling to the left which results in crossing the bolster) - or modify the seat rails so that it "oriented" more to the left than it currently does.

Another problem I have with my driving position (probably also because I'm rather short - just 170 cm) is that - after lowering the seat (and I hate sitting high as it elevates entire car's CoG and prevents me from fast and efficient steering), I just can't see the inner side of a left curve I'm entering because the external rearview mirror is then exactly at my eyes level! So my question to you guys is: with your driving position, is your head/eyes high enough to see over the mirror?

At about 5' 7" you're not really short. I'm 6' 1", which is taller but tremendously. If you were like 5' 1", then yeah on the shorter side for a guy.

To your questions. Are you using the thigh extension? Try moving it in an out to see if your leg accesses the footrest better or not.
Sit upright. Reclining alters your bodies whole angle in the wrong way for best car control and comfort.

Tilt angle of the seat can also alter comfort a good amount.
In your case make sure you're not tilting up the front of the seat edge as that effectively increases the length to the footrest.

Make sure you're not crowding the steering wheel, meaning, don't sit too close to the dash and steering wheel as that will increase the angle for your leg to the foot rest.
Try moving the steering wheel all the way in, then start by adjusting seat position for best foot access to the pedals along with comfort.
After that then adjust your steering wheel.

For better steering wheel distance placement, in a relaxed sitting position, sitting upright, extend your main driving arm with your wrist over the top edge of the steering wheel. With your writs sitting on the edge there should be a comfortable bend at your elbow, that is not extreme and not straight either. When you grasp the wheel with both hands at 9-3 or 10-2 o'clock there should be bend in your elbows, some state 120 degrees if you can visualize that degree.
Wheel height should put the steering wheel in front of you with both hands on the wheel at proper position your hands should not be as higher or higher than your shoulders, and certainly not down by your waist.

As for looking and seeing into a corner, you shouldn't be looking into the corner through the wheel. You should be looking ahead, forward, to where you want your car to go.
Looking, or worse staring, into the corner means you are not paying attention to what's coming up in front of you. You need to be looking far enough ahead to know what's coming up and in that way you will put the car where it needs to go or where you want it to go.
It's like what happens when a driver sees a pot hole and gets worried and keeps looking at the pot hole wanting to avoid it but hits it anyway.
That's "object fixation". If you keep looking at it you'll go towards it.
Instead look at where you want to be or want to go.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by den525

In terms of visibility it's not necessary to "see everything" driving is all about feel of the car.

Absolutely true, but - I'm not sure if you have them - imagine those rather tight roundabouts; the central "island" is usually curbed and - in my preferred driving position - I just cannot see them at all... Just an example of course to give you idea of what I'm talking about; never had similar problems in other cars. And since there was no problem, I never try to analyze and don't remember now what made the difference...

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by RPM90

At about 5' 7" you're not really short. I'm 6' 1", which is taller but tremendously. If you were like 5' 1", then yeah on the shorter side for a guy.

To your questions. Are you using the thigh extension? Try moving it in an out to see if your leg accesses the footrest better or not.
Sit upright. Reclining alters your bodies whole angle in the wrong way for best car control and comfort.

Tilt angle of the seat can also alter comfort a good amount.
In your case make sure you're not tilting up the front of the seat edge as that effectively increases the length to the footrest.

Make sure you're not crowding the steering wheel, meaning, don't sit too close to the dash and steering wheel as that will increase the angle for your leg to the foot rest.
Try moving the steering wheel all the way in, then start by adjusting seat position for best foot access to the pedals along with comfort.
After that then adjust your steering wheel.

For better steering wheel distance placement, in a relaxed sitting position, sitting upright, extend your main driving arm with your wrist over the top edge of the steering wheel. With your writs sitting on the edge there should be a comfortable bend at your elbow, that is not extreme and not straight either. When you grasp the wheel with both hands at 9-3 or 10-2 o'clock there should be bend in your elbows, some state 120 degrees if you can visualize that degree.
Wheel height should put the steering wheel in front of you with both hands on the wheel at proper position your hands should not be as higher or higher than your shoulders, and certainly not down by your waist.

As for looking and seeing into a corner, you shouldn't be looking into the corner through the wheel. You should be looking ahead, forward, to where you want your car to go.
Looking, or worse staring, into the corner means you are not paying attention to what's coming up in front of you. You need to be looking far enough ahead to know what's coming up and in that way you will put the car where it needs to go or where you want it to go.
It's like what happens when a driver sees a pot hole and gets worried and keeps looking at the pot hole wanting to avoid it but hits it anyway.
That's "object fixation". If you keep looking at it you'll go towards it.
Instead look at where you want to be or want to go.

Thanks a lot for your time and effort trying to explain the basics to me; I have 44 years of driving experience so while really appreciating it, unfortunately it didn't help me understand the root of my problems with these specific seats and this specific car. However, your arguments made me re-think the situation and I now believe it may all boil down to my body proportions. While certainly not tall (OK, I accept your definition of "short" according to which I'm not short either), I do have rather long legs compared to the upper body length, and certainly I do have rather short arms. While the number of ways you can adjust the seat and your driving position (plus the double way steering column adjustment), I can easily find a comfortable sitting position even though my upper body and arms are short in relation to legs - but this doesn't change the fact that sitting comfortably (and very low for the reasons I mentioned), my eye level is lower by a few centimeters than that of an average person with generally my size, but more common proportions of the body (shorter legs but longer upper body)...

This couple of centimeters difference results in the left mirror obscuring the direct surrounding of the car, the left side of a tight left curve in particular - but I'd like to stress it's only a problem in really tight space maneuvering (and city driving in general). On an open roads there is no visibility problem whatsoever as I'm focusing at a much larger distance.

[nike001]

You're sitting too close to the pedals. Your driving position is wrong.

You shouldn't be able to 'set' up a driving position and then keep it there from then on out. It took me almost 1 whole year of constant fiddling to get my driving position in my 330i just right. Fortunately, it took me only about 3 weeks in the M235i.

Watch this video from about 1:30. (it's a bonus that he's in an M235i)

(the steering wheel is the last thing you should adjust)

[eclipes]

Im 185cm and this small car definitely fits good. After several seat,lumbar,steering wheel adjustment i got the sweet spot. I have the moonroof and i still have enough headspace. Love the bmw seats

[tke743]

Another very good demo on seating position.

[den525]

Not trying to be rude or disrespectful... Shouldn't you have tested this before you bought the car?

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by nike001

You're sitting too close to the pedals. Your driving position is wrong.
Watch this video from about 1:30. (it's a bonus that he's in an M235i)

Funny you would state - without any doubt - that my position is wrong, only to point me to the video showing the position Chris adopts which is almost exactly the same as mine Why "almost"? -well, I was right when saying in my previous post that my upper body is short and this may be the reason my head is lower in the car than with most other persons'. Chris is slim person, and it looks like his upper body is indeed much longer than mine; he can see over the mirrors without problems. His legs may also be longer than mine, but this is easily adjusted for with the position of the seat with regards to the pedals (my legs have exactly the same amount of room in the pedal area as Chris shows). Last but no least, I've known and always obeyed "the rule off wrist" as the measurement of the correct distance from the steering wheel... So - as I said - I'm just too short to be using my preferred position of the seat 100% down; Chris can afford it; I'll have to elevate it a little.

Originally Posted by den525

Not trying to be rude or disrespectful... Shouldn't you have tested this before you bought the car?

I don't take it as rude or disrespectful, but when testing a car you always pay most attention to how the car feels - only then how you feel in the car, and even then the natural way of thinking is "hey, with so many adjustments possible, I'll find my best position sooner rather than later". Also - and I'm not trying to find excuses here - in Poland the M235iis so rare a car that I only had a single opportunity to drive it for 15 minutes; it went to another dealer first thing after (there was only one M235i registered by BMW in Poland at that time; even now I am told by BMW Poland guy who is my caretaker that mine is one of only two M235is registered in this country at the moment).

PS. I forgot about the other of the problems mentioned - my left thigh over the bolster instead of next to it. If you take a look at this thread: www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1120126
- you will see quite a number of people confirming this; would it be a coincidence most of them say they are rather short, as well? Hopefully I don't need to explain why a person with short legs must keep the left one at a greater angle to the left than someone with long legs, if both want to rest their foot on the dead pedal... Just take a look at a picture and with the eyes of your imagination, draw a line from where your leg grows from your a$$ straight to the dead pedal (so much to the left it's barely visible at that angle). Can you see now the line crosses the side bolster - and at its highest point, too? Of course, a very high person with long legs has less of this problem - but in my opinion, the bolsters are located too close to the front of the seat - my Golf R has them even higher, but located backwards and I have no problem like this (see below).

PPS One more argument for my theory about the M235i seats not being perfect: why do you think I don't complain about the other small car of mine, the Golf R? It has perfect seats - at least for my body proportions; the side bolsters are located more to the back of the seat (they should keep your a$$ in place, not knees like those in the M235i). And the rearview mirrors never disturb my seeing even in the tightest of left curves - even though I also am sitting almost on the car's floor

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Thanks a lot for your time and effort trying to explain the basics to me; I have 44 years of driving experience so while really appreciating it, unfortunately it didn't help me understand the root of my problems with these specific seats and this specific car. However, your arguments made me re-think the situation and I now believe it may all boil down to my body proportions. While certainly not tall (OK, I accept your definition of "short" according to which I'm not short either), I do have rather long legs compared to the upper body length, and certainly I do have rather short arms. While the number of ways you can adjust the seat and your driving position (plus the double way steering column adjustment), I can easily find a comfortable sitting position even though my upper body and arms are short in relation to legs - but this doesn't change the fact that sitting comfortably (and very low for the reasons I mentioned), my eye level is lower by a few centimeters than that of an average person with generally my size, but more common proportions of the body (shorter legs but longer upper body)...

This couple of centimeters difference results in the left mirror obscuring the direct surrounding of the car, the left side of a tight left curve in particular - but I'd like to stress it's only a problem in really tight space maneuvering (and city driving in general). On an open roads there is no visibility problem whatsoever as I'm focusing at a much larger distance.

My intention with my post was not to be insulting. I hope you got that.
I was just making suggestions and often these questions and responses help other people who may not have the experience you do.

LOL. Your self body description has me imagining a guy with long stroke legs with T-Rex like arms.
I'm sure it's not that that extreme....right? JK'ing.
I too have 'odd' body proportions in that I'm 6'1" but my leg inseam is only 30". So I have the torso of someone about 3" taller. Short legs tall torso.

[moldcad]

Hey - of course I never took your post as insulting; why would I?!

As to my body proportions: it's not that bad, but the fact is that buying jeans for example - if they are OK in my waist, they will always be OK in the leg length. However - buying a shirt or a jacket/suit I ALWAYS need to shorten the sleeves

[moldcad]

Sorry guys I'm bumping my thread like this to get your attention again, but otherwise it would die somewhere down the newer threads' list. With the picture I posted above I hope I managed to convince some of you that I'm not hallucinating, and the angle of the driver's seat - together with the location of the bolster almost at seat's front end - may cause problems for persons of some specific body size who must reach with their left leg to the left in order to use the dead pedal...

Why am I still beating thad already dead horse? Well - simply because I'm curious whether nobody seems to share my critical opinion because they indeed never have this problem, or because nobody wants to admit it? Like (apologies if my use of the saying is wrong here) "Every wagtail boasts of its tail"? It's just an interesting sociological phenomenon to me: am I being paranoid, or is everyone else unable to admit any criticism of their beloved car?

Same with the placement of the external mirrors: I did a little research today and compared their placement in the BMW (did I mention I had the same problem with my F10) vs. the Golf R. And you know what? No matter what my sitting position is in the R, the mirror never "gets into the picture" - while in my M235i I must elevate the seat to its highest possible position to get an unobstructed vision. Again, nobody will probably confirm this obvious design flaw - but its there...

Which leads me to the final though sad conclusion that BMW is not what it used to be, sadly... I realize there is no "perfect car", just like anything else - but my experience with the current BMWs (F10 and F22) is full of little annoyances like this. The little things of a kind nonexistent in my old good E46! Sad... Because considering the level of technology in today's BMWs, the phenomenal performance of the M235i engine, tranny, even the suspension and steering (some of you guys do have guts to admit could be better) - this car is so close to perfection that it's just a pity such stupid things spoil the overall picture. Add to those annoyances that - again in both my F10 and F22 - the HVAC started smelling just 2 months after buying the cars new from factory; that the "black chrome" exhaust tailpipes - made in China, BTW - started corroding just about the same time...

The greedy accountants are killing masterpieces of motor engineering in order to make some more Euros - THAT's what it is.

My apologies for the rant.

[dcfella]

Having the car for several months now and living in an area of high traffic, I've found the seats to be comfortable. Visibility seems fine too. My fiance has driven my car numerous times too and hasn't had issue with the seats or visibility.

I don't doubt that the seats are uncomfortable for you, but I don't believe there to be a issue for a vast majority of owners.

PS. So far no smells coming from hvac but I will be on the lookout for that issue.

[Michall]

I've been driving my 235i for about a month. I have some problems with my lower back and it took me 3 weeks to finally find a sweet spot. Maybe the dead pedal is located a little too far to the left but it's not bothering me. I change a position of my left leg pretty often anyway.
Visibility is fine for me, too. This car sits much lower than a looking like 4x4 Golf R, too so maybe that's your problem with adjusting your side mirrors.

Regarding the HVAC. Actually it's not only related to BMW. I had the same problem with my previous car (MK6 GTI). The problem is mold. To prevent it, when you use the AC, at the end of your drive, just turn off the AC and blast the heat for a minute. It will heat up the ducts, preventing moisture (which leads to mold) from accumulating inside (cold HVAC system + warm humid air = condensation)

If you already have mold in the ducts/evaporator, you can go to your dealership and ask for a climate system cleaning and replacing the cabin filter or just do it by yourself. You can buy a bottle of this:

http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Air-Kit/...MVAB9YSRGGCF50

or even better-Klima Cleaner

http://www.amazon.com/einszett-96110...=klima+cleaner

and change the pollen filter.

[vh2720]

The position of the dead pedal could be a problem if you want to put your whole foot straight on it. I realize what I do is seat myself straight inside the bolsters, but with my left foot like this \ so that only the top of my foot is on the dead pedal. That way my thigh does not sit on the bolster. I am glad the position of the dead pedal does not force me to use it like on some other cars because I like to stretch out my left leg and foot. I am extremely picky about seating position - I sold my previous car after nine months because it was uncomfortable. I am about as tall as you, I have back issues, and I drive about 1200 miles a month, and I am very satisfied with the comfort of this car. I can find many comfortable seating positions and I try to vary them frequently on long trips. The telescoping and tilting of the steering wheel should take care of any arm position issues.

I agree that the left side mirror can occasionally block my view of something to my immediate left, but that is probably unavoidable if you sit low in a car that is low to the ground.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by vh2720

I agree that the left side mirror can occasionally block my view of something to my immediate left, but that is probably unavoidable if you sit low in a car that is low to the ground.

Sorry - I'll stick to my design error theory. In the Golf (R at least - never drove another Golf) the mirrors are very cleverly mounted some 10-15 cm more to the back; this way they are closer to the driver's head and don't block his visibility at all (you can easily see above them). Remember the older sports cars with their rearview mirrors moved either all the way to the front (mounted on the fender), or a bit backwards (mounted to the doors, but closer to the driver like in the Golf R)?

Originally Posted by Michall

Visibility is fine for me, too. This car sits much lower than a looking like 4x4 Golf R, too so maybe that's your problem with adjusting your side mirrors.

Have you seen the Golf R in person? Asking, because its stance is lower than that of the M235i...

And my last comment about the seat: the location of the dead pedal is the only possible, so I'm not blaming their (the seat's and the pedal's) relative position. What is definitely a poor design is the location of the highest part of the bolster - too far forward. In the Golf R I have a direct comparison with on an everyday basis, the highest part of the bolster is keeping your ass in place - not you knees!

[aerostar]

I think that maybe your body is just shaped weird... I haven't heard of anyone complaining about the seats.

And I also think that this is something that you should have noticed on the test drive... seating is one of the first things I personally look at.

[Michall]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Have you seen the Golf R in person? Asking, because its stance is lower than that of the M235i...

Yes, I have. I was driving one when looking for my new ride and for me it had more ground clearance. But, of course I may be wrong. You have both of them, so you know for sure.

[moldcad]

Ground clearances:

Golf R mk7: 128 mm
BMW M235i coupe: 140mm

[Michall]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Ground clearances:

Golf R mk7: 128 mm
BMW M235i coupe: 140mm

Actually 140 mm is for a 228i. It's 130mm for a 235i.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by aerostar

I think that maybe your body is just shaped weird... I haven't heard of anyone complaining about the seats.

And I also think that this is something that you should have noticed on the test drive... seating is one of the first things I personally look at.

Yes, I was hoping I'd get away with it, but I'm shaped like a monkey. No, hold on - i said long legs/short hands so it couldn't be a monkey... Sorry, I forgot - but it's a terrifying animal.

And as to test-drive: I got rid of almost new 528xi (losing a lot of money in the process - please don't tell my wife) only to get what a true bimmer - a driver's car - should be: a small, agile RWD car with legendary I6 engine I remembered from my E46 (now turbo'ed, but equally smooth). And you would expect a guy so much motivated by the performance side of this car to pay most of his attention on the seats, knowing they have gazillion-way adjustment? Really? And maybe cancel the order because of the sear bolster?