07-06-2015, 07:56 PM | #1 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
Bilstein xDrive PSS10 B16 coilovers on F31. Pics, install notes, review
Long post below. TL;DR: Good street coilover that would likely do well on track. Don't expect a high end track setup. Won't go very low.
Finished pic first: Ever since we were ordering my wife's F31, I was thinking that I would not be very happy with the suspension and would need to upgrade it. The US spec F31s only came in xDrive, and xDrive vehicles do not get a sport suspension setup. So knowing that I was going to swap out the standard xDrive suspension, we ordered the car without DHP. This is our street car, and won't see any regular track time. I might do a parade day or a few autocrosses, but track use was not a deciding factor for picking the setup. Background and experience: This is our 4th 3 series, we have an E36, E90, this F31, and recently sold our E46. I do about 6-10 track events a year in my E36 track beater which have "high end" MCS dampers with Vorshlag and Hyperco hardware. My E90 has PSS10s, and I've been pretty happy with them - my old review here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6062243. Our E46 was a DD that had stock sport suspension that was not modified. There simply were not many options for F31s due to the xDrive platform and the heavier wagon. There are some spring / shock combos out there, but I was not particularly interested as they often had weird lowering ranges (typically lowering the front of the car more), and even fewer F31 specific applications. I was pretty set on a coilover setup for the height adjustability, and damping adjustability. It's my wife's car so it can't be too low or stiff - she's not a car person so a more "regular" setup was important here. It came down to a few choices: KW's V1/V2/Street Comfort, and Bilstein's B14 PSS/B16 PSS10. There are other KW alternatives but I was not interested in double adjustable dampers and the like for a street car. I'm biased towards Bilsteins as I've had them in numerous cars before without ANY issues. They're much more convenient to revalve, although their lead times have increased to weeks instead of days for a revalve now. The process to revalve KWs is a pain based on my friend's recent experience (took 11 weeks from door to door, when promised 6-8 weeks). I also prefer Bilstein's monotube dampers over KW's twin tube design - I just like the feel of them better. Finally, KW's F31 coilovers have had issues with rear springs that were too short and it required using a spring spacer to get the correct ride height. It looks like KW recently came out with a 2-part spring that alleviates this issue based on what I've read here. Either way, I decided to go Bilstein and had to choose between PSS and PSS10. I actually had the Bilstein PSS coilovers on my E36 when it was a street car - and it rode pretty darn stiff. They used springs that were somewhat soft - 400F/425R lb/in respectively, but they were just valved stiff. While I was fine with that, I figured my wife would be bitching about it if the F3x application was the same (a few users here reported a stiff ride with the B14 PSS setup). In contrast, the PSS10s on my E90 were nearly as soft as the factory sports suspension at the softest setting, that I hoped the F3x application would be similar. So PSS10s it was. Note: Bilstein does not make a specific kit for each F30/F31/F32/F33/F34 etc. body styles. 1 part number for all xDrive F3x cars. Therefore, the spring rates are not be fully optimized for each chassis. I took the chance that it would work well on the F31. The xDrive PSS10s might be pretty new at the time of this writing, as most supporting vendors here were unable to get an ETA or did not show availability at all for them. I was able to go through a vendor I've used many times in the past to get a set from Germany. They're not sponsors here so I won't mention them. In time, I believe this will be a non-issue so check with sponsoring vendors for a set. The setup arrived quickly and a couple quick notes about the kit:
No truly "special" tools required. Spring compressors, pass-through wrenches, and e-torx sockets will be required, and they can be considered special tools depending on the size of your toolbox. I used some great install notes from wwmiller3 here: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1138911. Pay particular attention to #5 and #6. I'll add my 2 cents on those later. Installation was pretty standard affair. If you've done suspension installs on other cars before then you won't have too much trouble here. I wasn't planning to do a big DIY, there are plenty of threads on the forum that cover that. I'll just note anything to be careful of or PSS10 specific.
On the road. You will notice that the car rides stiffer even on the softest setting. I think it's stiffer than F30s with sport suspension (RWD cars). It's comfortable enough for daily driving unless you're really old. I'm just starting to get old, so I'm OK with it. I then tried settings 3, 5, 6 and 8 (higher numbers are stiffer). Just 2 clicks up at 3, it's starting to get to the upper limit of DD comfort. Completely liveable, and if you want a firmer ride with a little less wallow, 3 is a decent setting all around. I'd call 5-6 a good canyon carving setting. Increased rebound and compression is nice to control the corners a bit better, and compliant enough to handle undulating roads. 8 is way stiff, stiffer than what most people need on the street I think. I never even got to 10. If you're going to do a few track days, the upper ranges will work better, and you can tune out some under/oversteer with different settings F/R. I left it at the softest setting of 1, it'll do great there on the mean commutes of the SF Bay Area. Adjusting the dampers are easily done in 2 minutes, although you have to get on the ground. Turn the front wheels and you can easily access the fronts. The rears you just give her a reach around and feel for the knob and tinker with it. Out in the twisties you immediately notice the springs are waaaayyyy stiffer than the xDrive ones. That's a good thing for most. I didn't bother to contact Bilstein about spring rates, don't really care about specifics for a street car. But the body roll is considerably less and the door mirrors are no longer scraping the pavement on corners. Left/Right transitions are handled well and it's just more nimble all around. It doesn't negate the huge amount of weight being thrown around with this boat of a wagon, but it does a good job controlling overall body movement. The terrible steering feel of the F3x remains terrible. I didn't go crazy on public roads, but with the same numerical damper settings front and rear, the car still tends to understeer in steady state, slow cornering. The car does have staggered tires, but the tendency is still there. Without going to the track, it would be hard to tell how it really does. I could imagine running something like 8F/10R or something similar on track to dial out some understeer (pure speculation at this point). Maybe I'll sneak the car out to an autoX or track day soon to confirm. For occasional track days, I think the kit will work out fine too. I'd say if you do less than 4 events a year, this would be adequate (although stock is adequate too if you really think about it). If you're building a track car, look elsewhere and heck, get a RWD car to start with. xDrive is just the wrong car to start a track car with IMO. I'll update this thread with alignment specs and corner weights when I get them. I was pretty careful about lowering each corner the exact same amount to maintain the stock weight distribution. On my E36 and my E90, that has served me well and both those cars have 49.x% or 50.x% cross weights when I went in to corner balance them. Essentially, I didn't corner balance them since they were already spot on. Finally, for shits and giggles, I took the Apex ARC-8 wheels from my E90 and test fitted them on the F31. They're square 18"x9.5" ET35 wheels, with 265/35/18 Dunlop Direzza ZIIs on them. The tires run super wide, wider than some 275s. They clear everything on the inside of the car, but if I drove the car I'm sure it would rub really bad all along the fenders. And these were shorter tires than the F3x size, a slightly taller and narrower 255/40/18 might fit nicely instead. Maybe I'll get new wheels for my E90 and put these on the F31. Doesn't look bad, although the front was still a hair high in this picture, it's been adjusted a bit lower. Oh and when the wife drove it... "I don't notice any difference. At all."
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
Last edited by Chowbow; 07-11-2015 at 03:48 AM.. |
Appreciate
14
AlterZgo1537.50 jsk55993.50 Dog Face Pony Soldier9719.50 B58 parts471.50 CSBM52695.50 zinner556.00 Operator Mo64.50 danb19791640.50 moppity87.00 |
07-10-2015, 07:56 PM | #3 |
Lieutenant
215
Rep 557
Posts |
I installed the same set on my 335i back in 2013. Had fun doing it - most of the time; but the rear part, "Roll-over strut with rubber mount", gave me a hard time. It was difficult to line up properly so I can fit the bolt thru w/o forcing it.
|
Appreciate
0
|
07-10-2015, 08:18 PM | #4 |
Captain
179
Rep 713
Posts |
Great review. Wish the PSS10 were out last year when I got my KW V2s. I had the PSS10 on my S4 and liked them a lot for DD. KW are nice, but on the softer side but reality probably more appropriate.
Interesting to see that the 9.5" ET35 fit without issue relative to the strut. I had a couple mm clearance but not the perch for the spring (though I installed the camber pivot bearing which brought me closer to the strut). I could likely make it fit if I raised. How much room did you have between the wheel and strut/perch?
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
07-13-2015, 12:56 PM | #5 | ||
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
The 9.5" ET35 didn't have a lot of room, but it did clear. One thing that is important is that the spring perch was high enough to clear the lip of the wheel as well as the widest part of the sidewall. I bet the camber pivot bearing makes the difference here. On my E36 I had similar issues when I used the shim trick to kick the hub out a bit more. As this is my wife's DD, I don't think I would do the camber pivot bearing. If anything, it seems easier to do a camber plate for the same cost now, and it's easy to install! I'm not sure if that option was available for you at that time, but that's what I would probably do now if I wanted more negative camber.
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
07-24-2015, 01:41 AM | #6 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
Update: Weight, cross weight, and alignment numbers are in.
Brought the car in and had the shop put it on the scales to see how close I got the corner balance. Since it's a street car I had no intention of actually corner balancing it, but just a curiosity check. Results... Total weight without driver: 3815lbs Cross weight without driver: 50.7% As I somewhat expected, the car is well corner balanced from the factory, so lowering each corner the exact same amount maintains a good corner balance. Relevant alignment numbers: Front left camber: -0.73* Front right camber: -0.52* Front left caster: 7.58* Front right caster: 7.51* Total toe-in (front): 0.21* Rear left camber: -1.53* Rear right camber: -1.53* Total toe-in (rear): 0.33* I'm a bit surprised at the terrible negative camber up front, but I suppose for a street car it's fine. There's no real adjustment for it anyway. Not too worried about the slight differences left to right here, 0.2* is negligible. Last edited by Chowbow; 07-24-2015 at 02:05 AM.. |
Appreciate
5
|
08-14-2015, 06:41 PM | #7 |
Private
9
Rep 84
Posts |
Your square test fit was of interest. I started my research during the spring to do a square BBS CH-R 19x9.5 ET 35 setup with 245-40-19 hankook tires. It seems it should work without any issues since the hankook are narrower.
|
Appreciate
0
|
08-16-2015, 04:56 PM | #8 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
I'd imagine those tires would work. The 265s I tried are pretty wide, wider than some 275s I've run before.
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-27-2016, 06:34 AM | #9 |
Colonel
1569
Rep 2,401
Posts
Drives: E46 ZCP, F85, E70, G07
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Outside Atlanta
|
Great post, how are things holding up?
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2016, 10:55 PM | #10 |
Lieutenant Colonel
309
Rep 1,733
Posts
Drives: 2003 M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: MA
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2016, 06:13 PM | #11 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
No issues with this setup still. Working great - no drama. It's only street driven, mostly by my wife but when I take it out it's always good fun for being a station wagon.
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-03-2016, 10:06 AM | #13 | |
First Lieutenant
158
Rep 397
Posts |
Quote:
I see you pick the PSS10 over the KW V1, I am still in the debate phase right now. Have you had a chance to try the Bilstein PSS (B14) in the past? How does that compare to the PSS10? I want to swap out the stock suspension (same as X-drive suspension) to something more stiff but still livable in a DD. Thanks!
__________________
Past: E46 Metallic Blue Coupe 323i GONE: E86 Jet Black Z4 Convertible GONE: E92 Crimson Red 335i, F30 Liquid Blue Matallic 328i Current Garage Queen: Mineral White F83 M4 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-03-2016, 11:23 AM | #14 | |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
|
Appreciate
1
|
03-03-2016, 11:30 AM | #15 | |
First Lieutenant
158
Rep 397
Posts |
Quote:
Thanks.
__________________
Past: E46 Metallic Blue Coupe 323i GONE: E86 Jet Black Z4 Convertible GONE: E92 Crimson Red 335i, F30 Liquid Blue Matallic 328i Current Garage Queen: Mineral White F83 M4 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-04-2016, 02:43 PM | #16 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
My wife couldn't even tell the difference after the PSS10s, even though they are significantly stiffer than the xDrive suspension. It's not that the PSS10s are that supple, it's just that she's clueless about the ride apparently.
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-04-2016, 04:07 PM | #17 | |
First Lieutenant
158
Rep 397
Posts |
Quote:
She has a pretty good idea regarding these machines nowadays. She complained that the Z4 was too hard with under-steer and over-steer through a corner, the E92 M suspension being her favorite. I guess it is good she gets it, but now it becomes harder to get mods pass her without her knowing :\
__________________
Past: E46 Metallic Blue Coupe 323i GONE: E86 Jet Black Z4 Convertible GONE: E92 Crimson Red 335i, F30 Liquid Blue Matallic 328i Current Garage Queen: Mineral White F83 M4 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2016, 07:57 AM | #18 |
Colonel
254
Rep 2,547
Posts |
Chow did the pss10's loosen up a little like the B6/B8 dampers do after a few thousand miles?
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-07-2016, 11:38 AM | #19 |
pew pew
166
Rep 6,781
Posts |
Not at all. I've had B8 Bilsteins on a few cars now and they didn't loosen up after a few thousand miles either. I mean after many thousands, yes, they eventually wore out but there was no "break-in" period per se.
__________________
CSL replicas are now CSL counterfeits. Jesus saves, like Valentine1.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-07-2016, 04:22 PM | #20 | |
Colonel
254
Rep 2,547
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-17-2017, 04:37 AM | #22 |
Private
6
Rep 59
Posts |
Hello I have a question. I've been trying to find out how long do the pss10 last in miles for the f30 ? Like are they good for 50k ? Etc... I've been trying to research but can't find any answers . Thank you and great write up
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|