[newoldbeemer]

Bear with me on the hyperbole, no I am serious. Let me explain for a moment.

So I drive a 328i E92. I have owned an E90 335i and an F30 328i before. Now I am looking to get something faster, something special that would keep me happy. I have been doing a lot of research, test drives, posting threads, questions, obsessing over this for a few weeks now.

So my simple requirement is a car with these characteristics:
- Small, nimble and tight, handles and steers well
- Automatic for everyday convenience
- Goes fast with lots of low-end torque, has the feeling of "gobs of power" at any RPM in everyday driving
- Is reasonably affordable - around 40k - 45k new / used 2012+ CPO
- 15+ MPG
- Four doors (this is no longer a requirement, it was when I started out my analysis).


Now, I went about test driving several different cars. I consciously wanted to try something other than 3 series, for a change. But the more research I do on this, the more I find that the 3 series (with the possible exception of the Z4) is the only car that actually fits this bill.

Here are a few cars I've tried driving so far:

1. Mercedes V8s - E550 and CLS550
These cars have great torque low down and exciting interior electronics (even self parking!) and I can pick up one of these with low miles for 40K CPO! The interiors are on S-class level on the CLS550. Power at any RPM. But the downside is they feel big and boaty to handle after driving my E92.

2. BMW 550i
Similar to the Mercedes V8's. Lots of torque low down but handles like the big car it is. Soft suspension. Great car but doesn't suit my requirements.

3. BMW E92 M3
This one was actually a surprise for me. I expected it to fit my requirement perfectly except maybe the budget part, but it didn't. Its power has to be wrung out. I did enjoy wringing it out, but I can't imagine driving like that everyday on streets. One would either kill someone or end up with a bunch of tickets. Up until 4K RPM, it felt just like my 328i. After that it became a beast. The handling is sublime, but I think this car is impractical for enjoying on a day to day basis. I can see how this would be the perfect scalpel on a track though.

4. 370Z, Mustang GT...
I haven't tried these yet but I am told the torque characteristics will be similar to the M3, coming in at higher RPMs. For similar reasons to the M3, I think the 335i will crush these in everyday excitement.

5. 135i
This should kill the 335i in everything and do it better, but both the 135i's I drove had too much body roll, much more so than my msport E92. I can't live with that when I know the E92 while being 100 pounds heavier won't have that much body roll. Later on searching about it I found this is true, the 135i is intentionally softer sprung.

6. Audi S4
This car is supposed to be equal to the 335i and even a bit faster, but I didn't feel it. I think the engine in this car also has to be worked a little to feel the torque. Also, threw it at a corner spiritedly and while it took the corner well, it had a lot of lean and felt heavy and ready to understeer. I felt like I was driving a muscle car at that moment rather than a tight, agile, quick compact.

So at my budget, for my specific requirements, I can't find a better car. This includes both E92 and F30 335i's. Can you think of any other car that gives gobs of torque, is equally agile and handles equally well at this price point? The only other car I can think of is the Z4. What am I missing?

So far only the 335i has met my requirements. I think what makes the 335i unique is these two things:
1. Flat torque curve and torque coming in at low RPMs
3. BMW's tight handling and steering feel

Cars that are a potential match but I haven't test-driven yet:
- Z4 35i (probably a good match)
- C63AMG (probably out of budget anyway - I can't find any CPO < 45K)
- M235i (still too early for this to be available CPO at 40K)
- F80 M3 / M4 (way out of budget)
- CLA45AMG (4 cylinder...)
- Golf R (4 cylinder...)

Oh and the title is because I believe my requirement represents a very common guy, an average semi-enthusiast: enjoys driving but not really a true enthusiast. Can drive stick if needed but prefers the convenience of an auto. Enjoys driving around but never goes to the track. Likes low-end torque unlike true enthusiasts who like to work the gears and wring out the power. Likes driving but not maintaining BMWs, needs the cushion of warranty/CPO.

Thoughts?

[TemjinX2]

I would say try driving the m235i as well. BMW pretty much took all the weaknesses of the e92 335i and fixed them. It is slightly smaller but the lightness and more nimble handling makes up for it.

You can get them in the high 30's or try to lease a 2015 since the 2016 lease rates suck.

[newoldbeemer]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

I would say try driving the m235i as well. BMW pretty much took all the weaknesses of the e92 335i and fixed them. It is slightly smaller but the lightness and more nimble handling makes up for it.

You can get them in the high 30's or try to lease a 2015 since the 2016 lease rates suck.

Just curious what weaknesses in the E92 335i?

The only M235i's I see around me are 50K+. Yeah lease is an option. But doesn't E92 still trump it in steering feel?

[YouAreMyWorld]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

I would say try driving the m235i as well. BMW pretty much took all the weaknesses of the e92 335i and fixed them. It is slightly smaller but the lightness and more nimble handling makes up for it.

You can get them in the high 30's or try to lease a 2015 since the 2016 lease rates suck.

Where are you seeing an M235i in the high 30's?

I just searched in a 500 miles radius of Los Angeles and the lowest, which is a 14' model, is $45,000.

I doubt you can find an unmolested model for anything lower than $40,000... if that low as it is.

Are they that much cheaper in NM?

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by newoldbeemer

Just curious what weaknesses in the E92 335i?

The only M235i's I see around me are 50K+. Yeah lease is an option. But doesn't E92 still trump it in steering feel?

e92 335i weaknesses = bad hpfp, wg rattle, leaky injectors, weak water pump,
3700lb weight

m235i = so far doesnt seem to have the same issues, probably won't since n55 has been around for a long time and its the same engine there using in the M2. Also highest rated BMW on consumer reports in terms of quality.
lighter at around 3500lb

My buddy just bought his CPO M235i with 13k on it for $39k. We're in ABQ with only one BMW dealer. So if your in Los Angeles or Houston or some other large Metro area, you can probably get a better deal then he did.

Steering feel is subjective, i would just test drive the car first.

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld

Where are you seeing an M235i in the high 30's?

I just searched in a 500 miles radius of Los Angeles and the lowest, which is a 14' model, is $45,000.

I doubt you can find an unmolested model for anything lower than $40,000... if that low as it is.

Are they that much cheaper in NM?

LOL...no NM dealers are probably the most greedy in the US.

I'm from los angeles and i'm use to getting cheaper car prices.

i helped my buddy get his m235i at 39k from 44k after 3hrs of negotiating.
We have CPO warranty until 2019 and free maintaince until 2018 so not bad deal.


The car was bought at that original bmw dealership, the guy only put 13k miles after owning the car for almost two yrs.

Dealers have more room to move on used cars since they pretty much bent over the guy that trade in his car in the first place.

New cars have lot less margin so most people usually only get 5-7% off.

[YouAreMyWorld]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

e92 335i weaknesses = bad hpfp, wg rattle, leaky injectors, weak water pump,
3700lb weight

m235i = so far doesnt seem to have the same issues, probably won't since n55 has been around for a long time and its the same engine there using in the M2. Also highest rated BMW on consumer reports in terms of quality.
lighter at around 3500lb

My buddy just bought his CPO M235i with 13k on it for $39k. We're in ABQ with only one BMW dealer. So if your in Los Angeles or Houston or some other large Metro area, you can probably get a better deal then he did.

Steering feel is subjective, i would just test drive the car first.

Our own forums as well as Google claims that an E92 335i weighs just a tad over 3500, while the 235i is only about 100lbs lighter.

Unless you're accounting for driver weight?

Not sure though, that's just what a quick google search of "335i Curb Weight" brought up.

[newoldbeemer]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

LOL...no NM dealers are probably the most greedy in the US.

I'm from los angeles and i'm use to getting cheaper car prices.

i helped my buddy get his m235i at 39k from 44k after 3hrs of negotiating.
We have CPO warranty until 2019 and free maintaince until 2018 so not bad deal.


The car was bought at that original bmw dealership, the guy only put 13k miles after owning the car for almost two yrs.

Dealers have more room to move on used cars since they pretty much bent over the guy that trade in his car in the first place.

New cars have lot less margin so most people usually only get 5-7% off.

Wow thats a deal. I'd jump on that deal in a heartbeat. I am only seeing M235i's here for 50K here.

335i's and 135's on the other hand are available for 30K-ish, with low miles (~20k miles)

[YouAreMyWorld]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

LOL...no NM dealers are probably the most greedy in the US.

I'm from los angeles and i'm use to getting cheaper car prices.

i helped my buddy get his m235i at 39k from 44k after 3hrs of negotiating.
We have CPO warranty until 2019 and free maintaince until 2018 so not bad deal.


The car was bought at that original bmw dealership, the guy only put 13k miles after owning the car for almost two yrs.

Dealers have more room to move on used cars since they pretty much bent over the guy that trade in his car in the first place.

New cars have lot less margin so most people usually only get 5-7% off.

Well then, that's some pretty darn good negotiating.

Cars depreciate so damn quickly that I find it absolutely insane at times to buy a vehicle brand new. Unless you're rolling around in an exotic, you'll lose like $20,000 in two years, like wtf, lmao.

Whether you can reasonably afford a new vehicle or not, it just almost never seems logical to me. Especially when getting a vehicle with less than 35,000 miles is practically "brand new". And you're capable of saving quite a good amount.

[Game]

If maintenance and repairs aren't an issue, then yes, the 335 is a great car (I assume "best car ever" was just an attention grabber).

[smuler]

Wouldn't you get the 335is?

We don't have it in the UK, but if we did I'd have probably got one if it were in budget.
As a former E46 driver, I prefer the size of the M235i. But lack of steering feel was too big an issue.


I'm 72k with the 2009 335i and no big problems.

[Jnat]

I drive an almost FBO 09 335XI Coupe and came from an STI and before that a WRX, all modded, all great cars. I've had Corvettes, Mustangs and others like many here. The 335 offers balance for everyday driving that is hard to match for the money and performs well in most comparisons. My father recently leased a M235 XI, I have to say, BMW got it right with this car. Stock, the cars a beast, could be my next vehicle if I can find a low mile off lease version in the future. Good luck BTW.

[Nitrousbird]

CTS-V should be on your list.

E92 M3's low torque issue could be resolved with a supercharger. NOT a cheap fix for that problem!

[ilicboris]

I'd have to agree with the OP. Not accounting for repairs and maintenance this is the best daily driver and all around car (335i in general, Xdrive and coupe/sedan) that I've ever had. I knew it as soon as I test drove it. It's the perfect size and drives great. Available power and modifications and so many options. I guess I'd group probably the entire E90/3-series range in this.

I've had BMW V8's before and they aren't worth the headache. Owned a Mustang GT and while it was fun, it's not daily driver material. Had a Mercedes too, great car, but missed that driving feel.

[raisingAnarchy]

Originally Posted by newoldbeemer

4. 370Z, Mustang GT...
I haven't tried these yet but I am told the torque characteristics will be similar to the M3, coming in at higher RPMs. For similar reasons to the M3, I think the 335i will crush these in everyday excitement.

Not sure where you heard that about the torque characteristics of those cars, specifically the Mustang. Big displacement V8s (especially american variety) generally lend themselves to big torque early in the rev-range. At least, that was my experience driving the 2015 GT.

I felt like I could comfortably merge on a busy freeway at nothing more than 2k RPM in that car. The rest of the car is pretty nice. Adjustable steering settings, much better electric steering feel compared to the new bimmers (imo), more luxury options, etc. The car isn't my style, but it's worth a test drive if you don't mind coupes with tiny back seats.

Modern turbo motors are your only other option for fat, low-end torque curves. BMW, Audi, Merc, etc all have turbos in almost every model. Specific to BMW, the N55 is quite the proven motor at this point. N54 will give more flexibility for power down the road, but may be hard to find with CPO at this point.

[JasW]

Originally Posted by newoldbeemer

Automatic for everyday convenience

I stopped reading right there.

[yipronny]

I agree , the 335i is a great daily car except I don't like the harsh ride from the run flats. And the bouncy rear suspension!!

[Eddien123]

E92 M3

[Jashley73]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

CTS-V should be on your list.

E92 M3's low torque issue could be resolved with a supercharger. NOT a cheap fix for that problem!

Except every supercharger kit I've seen for the E90 M3 is a centrifugal supercharger, which doesn't offer much gain at low RPM. They don't make full boost until redline, so you gain SOME in the mid-range, but gain MOST at the top-end. So pretty much just amplifies the S65's already natural behavior.

[csu87]

i really hope the 335 isnt the best car ill ever have... I would have failed myself if so.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by newoldbeemer

Bear with me on the hyperbole, no I am serious. Let me explain for a moment.

So I drive a 328i E92. I have owned an E90 335i and an F30 328i before. Now I am looking to get something faster, something special that would keep me happy. I have been doing a lot of research, test drives, posting threads, questions, obsessing over this for a few weeks now.

So my simple requirement is a car with these characteristics:
- Small, nimble and tight, handles and steers well
- Automatic for everyday convenience
- Goes fast with lots of low-end torque, has the feeling of "gobs of power" at any RPM in everyday driving
- Is reasonably affordable - around 40k - 45k new / used 2012+ CPO
- 15+ MPG
- Four doors (this is no longer a requirement, it was when I started out my analysis).


Now, I went about test driving several different cars. I consciously wanted to try something other than 3 series, for a change. But the more research I do on this, the more I find that the 3 series (with the possible exception of the Z4) is the only car that actually fits this bill.

Here are a few cars I've tried driving so far:

1. Mercedes V8s - E550 and CLS550
These cars have great torque low down and exciting interior electronics (even self parking!) and I can pick up one of these with low miles for 40K CPO! The interiors are on S-class level on the CLS550. Power at any RPM. But the downside is they feel big and boaty to handle after driving my E92.

2. BMW 550i
Similar to the Mercedes V8's. Lots of torque low down but handles like the big car it is. Soft suspension. Great car but doesn't suit my requirements.

3. BMW E92 M3
This one was actually a surprise for me. I expected it to fit my requirement perfectly except maybe the budget part, but it didn't. Its power has to be wrung out. I did enjoy wringing it out, but I can't imagine driving like that everyday on streets. One would either kill someone or end up with a bunch of tickets. Up until 4K RPM, it felt just like my 328i. After that it became a beast. The handling is sublime, but I think this car is impractical for enjoying on a day to day basis. I can see how this would be the perfect scalpel on a track though.

4. 370Z, Mustang GT...
I haven't tried these yet but I am told the torque characteristics will be similar to the M3, coming in at higher RPMs. For similar reasons to the M3, I think the 335i will crush these in everyday excitement.

5. 135i
This should kill the 335i in everything and do it better, but both the 135i's I drove had too much body roll, much more so than my msport E92. I can't live with that when I know the E92 while being 100 pounds heavier won't have that much body roll. Later on searching about it I found this is true, the 135i is intentionally softer sprung.

6. Audi S4
This car is supposed to be equal to the 335i and even a bit faster, but I didn't feel it. I think the engine in this car also has to be worked a little to feel the torque. Also, threw it at a corner spiritedly and while it took the corner well, it had a lot of lean and felt heavy and ready to understeer. I felt like I was driving a muscle car at that moment rather than a tight, agile, quick compact.

So at my budget, for my specific requirements, I can't find a better car. This includes both E92 and F30 335i's. Can you think of any other car that gives gobs of torque, is equally agile and handles equally well at this price point?

Oh and the title is because I believe my requirement represents a very common guy, an average semi-enthusiast: enjoys driving but not really a true enthusiast. Can drive stick if needed but prefers the convenience of an auto. Enjoys driving around but never goes to the track. Likes low-end torque unlike true enthusiasts who like to work the gears and wring out the power. Likes driving but not maintaining BMWs, needs the cushion of warranty/CPO.

Thoughts?

I pretty much have to agree other than I'm not a very common guy..haha...I do like to work on my cars a bit--even though I am learning, I am not afraid to try. The car works great as a daily driver and is really fun for the price. Many times, I wish I had a MT but it's just not as practical anymore especially around the traffic here. I think everybody prefers a warranty on any car. Compared to 95% of the cars out there these cars have a uniqueness in driveability in that you can drive mellow with ease as well as let it rip--which is hard not to do on a daily basis.

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld

Our own forums as well as Google claims that an E92 335i weighs just a tad over 3500, while the 235i is only about 100lbs lighter.

Unless you're accounting for driver weight?

Not sure though, that's just what a quick google search of "335i Curb Weight" brought up.

based on edmunds... it saids 3571 for a rwd manual 335i and 3759 for the awd manual 335i. Add another probably 20-30lbs for auto.

honestly i just rounded...the variance can go up to 3900lbs if you add the convertible to that equation.

Regardless...the m235i is lighter and worth a look...long as your ok with the size because it is smaller then a e90...about the size of the e46.