[NISFAN]

As I had some software open and I see the car database has been updated, I thought I would post the important torque figure...drive torque at wheels between two contenders...

So here we have it......in the red corner weighing in at 1612Kg, a standard M4 DCT and in the blue corner a 1705Kg 360hp, 520ft.lb Hartge mapped 335d.

Ouch.....and who would have put money on the 335d?

[Firaxis]

The 335D wins yeah? Not sure if I'm reading it right..

[dopper99]

Looking at those graphs it would appear the 335d has a slightly higher peak torque figure - but it doesnt last as long.

Trouble is - these simulators and theory are all very well, but how does it translate in the real world? In all but perfect conditions the M4 wont be able to get the power down like the 335d xdrive will.

Now if there was an xdrive M3/M4, that would be a different matter.

[Ross_T_Boss]

I wouldn't have expected the in-gear power to be so linear in the M4, or so peaky in the 335d. However I'd have expected the M4 to be a consistent cut above the 335d - power is king after all - not torque, which seems to be a modern belief.

Can you get a single line graph showing the comparison between the two?

As Dopper said - actually getting the power from the wheels to the ground during that first couple of gears is where the 335d would have the edge - after that the M4 would be reeling her in...

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

The 335D wins yeah? Not sure if I'm reading it right..

You must be reading it wrong, other than a tiny spike in gears 2 on, the M4 is putting down higher average torque at the wheels. Considerably more in first as the scales are not the same......also, the spike of torque occurs before the optimum shift point in the previous gear, a Rev area you shouldn't be experiencing when extracting maximum performance. Max performance would be to change gear where the torque lines of one gear intersect the next.....or close to it.

[ZeroFx]

Drove an M4 and it snakes about with the torque. Scary stuff on full beans.

M4 has some serious boost and this was before full power was unlocked at break in service

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by dopper99

Looking at those graphs it would appear the 335d has a slightly higher peak torque figure - but it doesnt last as long.

Trouble is - these simulators and theory are all very well, but how does it translate in the real world? In all but perfect conditions the M4 wont be able to get the power down like the 335d xdrive will.

Now if there was an xdrive M3/M4, that would be a different matter.

True, but the only outside factor is traction. Other than that, the theory is reality.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Ross_T_Boss

I wouldn't have expected the in-gear power to be so linear in the M4, or so peaky in the 335d. However I'd have expected the M4 to be a consistent cut above the 335d - power is king after all - not torque, which seems to be a modern belief.

Can you get a single line graph showing the comparison between the two?

As Dopper said - actually getting the power from the wheels to the ground during that first couple of gears is where the 335d would have the edge - after that the M4 would be reeling her in...

Yes, it is funny how the engine torque curve gets translated into the torque at the wheels. As you say, horsepower is the true performance indicator, and that is because horsepower relates back to gearing to get to the critical measurement, which is torque at the wheels. Torque (engine) alone doesn't tell you the true capability of an engine.

The main issue with a Diesel engine, and that is perfectly demonstrated by any variant of tune on the N57 engine you care to mention, is that peak torque happens at a fairly low revs. Continue revving the engine to peak power is all good and well, but you actually accelerate slower the higher you rev. In the petrol where peak torque is typically closer to the peak power revs, the acceleration remains more constant. In essence, which goes against common views, you have to be a better driver in a diesel to extract top performance. Gear change revs is so much more critical in the diesel. Ironic?

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Yes, it is funny how the engine torque curve gets translated into the torque at the wheels. As you say, horsepower is the true performance indicator, and that is because horsepower relates back to gearing to get to the critical measurement, which is torque at the wheels. Torque (engine) alone doesn't tell you the true capability of an engine.

The main issue with a Diesel engine, and that is perfectly demonstrated by any variant of tune on the N57 engine you care to mention, is that peak torque happens at a fairly low revs. Continue revving the engine to peak power is all good and well, but you actually accelerate slower the higher you rev. In the petrol where peak torque is typically closer to the peak power revs, the acceleration remains more constant. In essence, which goes against common views, you have to be a better driver in a diesel to extract top performance. Gear change revs is so much more critical in the diesel. Ironic?

I'll reply to the other one as well, the 335D still outputs higher peak torque. I was just replying to what you said which has more torque going to the wheels (nobody said what's better overall)? But if were talking about linearity and overall speed well....

The M4 no doubt will be seriously quicker, it's still pulling peak HP at around 7K RPM. Obviously there's gear ratio's involved but with the amount of "work" it's producing it can sustain longer gearing henceforth it can give you more speed at any gear whilst retaining most of the torque (or twisting momentum) of a 335D..

Which ultimatley ends in this:

BMW 335D ACS Re-map

0-100 Km / h 4.4
80-180 Km / h 10.1

BMW M4 (Standard)

0-100 Km / h 4.1
80-180 Km / h 7.9

Yup an M4 still trounces a re-mapped 335D, which isn't at all surprising.. Factor in you can re-map an M4 and hey presto.

Still there is like a £20K difference between the two, I'd be mighty pissed if my M4 was slower ..

[Lorcan]

We call these thrust curves. I haven't had a play with it yet but I think Desktop Dyno can generate these.

http://www.leany.com/DesktopDyno/Page2.html

Is this where these came from Gordon?

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by ZeroFx

Drove an M4 and it snakes about with the torque. Scary stuff on full beans.

M4 has some serious boost and this was before full power was unlocked at break in service

Indeed it's a beast, can catch you out if not aware.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

We call these thrust curves. I haven't had a play with it yet but I think Desktop Dyno can generate these.

http://www.leany.com/DesktopDyno/Page2.html

Is this where these came from Gordon?

No Mate, it is software called Cartest 2000, but yes there are others that are able to generate similar. Cartest is great because it combines other data to simulate car performance. Pretty accurately too.

[snipnoob86]

listen. my 335d is the fastest most powerful car on the planet.

that is untill i buy an m4

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by ZeroFx

M4 has some serious boost and this was before full power was unlocked at break in service

[t5pilot]

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by t5pilot

Attachment 1361752

:

[Mattyk]

Originally Posted by t5pilot

Attachment 1361752

That's a fast [Rat] !!!

[t5pilot]

Lol, thanks... I think...

Yes, it is. Sub 4s to 60, great sound & still over 40mpg! mid range acceleration is just blistering, specially in S or S+ mode...

[RobUK]

Originally Posted by snipnoob86

listen. my 335d is the fastest most powerful car on the planet.

You haven't driven an AstraMax van have you?