[dAPEX]

What do you think would result in a better handling (less body roll) with most comfort?

Dinan springs + supplemental ride kit

OR

Dinan anti-roll bars with stock suspension

OR

M4 lower control arms with stock suspension

[x233]

Anti-roll bars.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by dAPEX

What do you think would result in a better handling (less body roll) with most comfort?

Dinan springs + supplemental ride kit

OR

Dinan anti-roll bars with stock suspension

OR

M4 lower control arms with stock suspension

Roll bars are the only upgrade that will have any obvious effect on body roll. The problem is, as you may know, installing anti-roll bars on the F22 is very, very complicated and time consuming. I had it done (and I love it), but it is not for ht faint of heart (or wallet).

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by dAPEX

What do you think would result in a better handling (less body roll) with most comfort?

Dinan springs + supplemental ride kit

OR

Dinan anti-roll bars with stock suspension

OR

M4 lower control arms with stock suspension

I'm planning on going with Dinan springs and ride kit.The anti roll bars are even more labor intensive than the spring install plus doing it so disruptive (?).The engine has to be raised and supported and rear suspension members moved to do something that used to be a take off old bolt ,on new procedure.I also remember one poster on the forum saying they wouldn't have put on anti-roll bars if the car wasn't being tracked.
BTW I just checked the Dinan website and they no longer list anti-roll bars for the 2 Series.

[i8ur911]

1 - sway bars
2 - F8x LCA's
3 - springs

[dAPEX]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

Roll bars are the only upgrade that will have any obvious effect on body roll. The problem is, as you may know, installing anti-roll bars on the F22 is very, very complicated and time consuming. I had it done (and I love it), but it is not for ht faint of heart (or wallet).

I have heard that. How many hours did they charge you for? Did you have it dealer installed? Is it doable with a lift for your average garage mechanic?

[dAPEX]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

I'm planning on going with Dinan springs and ride kit.The anti roll bars are even more labor intensive than the spring install plus doing it so disruptive (?).The engine has to be raised and supported and rear suspension members moved to do something that used to be a take off old bolt ,on new procedure.I also remember one poster on the forum saying they wouldn't have put on anti-roll bars if the car wasn't being tracked.
BTW I just checked the Dinan website and they no longer list anti-roll bars for the 2 Series.

That's weird. I checked last night and it seemed to be there still. That sounds terrible but I feel like it might be the best option for me. I would prefer to not drop the car much (pot holes, daily drive in winter snow, and really like not scraping on every driveway). I also like the suppleness of the suspension currently.

[dAPEX]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

Roll bars are the only upgrade that will have any obvious effect on body roll. The problem is, as you may know, installing anti-roll bars on the F22 is very, very complicated and time consuming. I had it done (and I love it), but it is not for ht faint of heart (or wallet).

Did you do it in isolation or with springs as well?

[dAPEX]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

I'm planning on going with Dinan springs and ride kit.The anti roll bars are even more labor intensive than the spring install plus doing it so disruptive (?).The engine has to be raised and supported and rear suspension members moved to do something that used to be a take off old bolt ,on new procedure.I also remember one poster on the forum saying they wouldn't have put on anti-roll bars if the car wasn't being tracked.
BTW I just checked the Dinan website and they no longer list anti-roll bars for the 2 Series.

http://www.dinancars.com/product/d12...ries&mid=1183/

I found them.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by dAPEX

I have heard that. How many hours did they charge you for? Did you have it dealer installed? Is it doable with a lift for your average garage mechanic?

About 12. Could take a little longer, depending on how careful your mechanic is/how familiar they are with doing this. I had a very good independent mechanic do it -- I would never have a dealer do this. I would not have your average garage mechanic do this job -- it is extremely difficult, and if they mess up, it could destroy your drivetrain. You will need a crane/mount/lift for the front motor in order to brace it when you drop the front subframe.

Originally Posted by dAPEX

Did you do it in isolation or with springs as well?

I had H&R springs on at the time (I did the H&R sway bars). I ended up removing the springs because they were way, way too low, and the only reason I got them in the first place was for better body control, and the sway bars did a much better job of that than the springs ever could.

One piece of advice -- do not do sway bars if you have the open diff. I did this after I had installed a LSD. A very stiff rear end with an open diff is bad news.

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

One piece of advice -- do not do sway bars if you have the open diff. I did this after I had installed a LSD. A very stiff rear end with an open diff is bad news.

Why is that? Even on the street?

[XutvJet]

Best handling and comfort? Wider and grippier tires. Less roll does NOT mean better performance in most cases. I promise you that.

There are many compromises with sway bars, most notably:

1) Reduced suspension independence and more rocking motions on tighter bumpy turns.

2) More NVH because most bars run urethane bushings.

3) Potentially more understeer or more oversteer. Or both.

[i8ur911]

FYI, the shop I work at would charge 8hrs for front and rear sway bar install.....it's roughly $800.

In regards to what XutvJet wrote, there are obviously pros and cons when installing any aftermarket part and that response didn't answer your initial question.

There is a fair amount of knowledge on this forum, so continue to research and seek what's best for you.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

Why is that? Even on the street?

I disagree with XutvJet. Sway bars will (generally) increase the handling performance of this car. I drove it around 12-15 track days without upgraded sways, and this car does exhibit too much body roll at high (track) speeds. Not so important for sweepers, but if you are doing quick transitions (esses or chicane) the excess body roll will push you towards losing control of the car.

Yes, there are trade offs, but uprated sway bars will (in my opinion) give you the best "bang for your buck" (installation costs notwithstanding) in the handling department over most other suspension mods. In my experience, it made a very significant (read:better) change to how the car handles.

Also, the reason you don't want such a stiff (rear) sway bar without an LSD is that, like XutvJet said, it decreases the amount of independence between the sides of the car. In fact, for example, when I go up steep driveways, my car frequently three-wheels. Luckily, I have a clutch-type LSD installed, so the power just gets shoved over to the wheel touching the ground.

If you don't have an LSD, you might have issues with this type of scenario because you will have serious problems getting power to the wheel still touching the ground. Moreover, when you take a corner really hard with uprated sways, instead of the chassis leaning, the bar will take on the excess stress and lean harder on one wheel than the other. If you do not have a LSD, you will be getting a lot of "one tire fires" if you know what I mean.

Also, keep in mind that I have the H&R bars which are incredibly stiff, compared to the Dinan or Hotchkis bars which are tubular (the H&R bars are solid) and a bit less stiff. That, however, is not to say that they are not stiff -- they are far more stiff than the stock bars, which are simply puny in comparison.

[XutvJet]

Not trying to be argumentative, but has a track experienced person even verified that aftermarket sway bars have actually lowered their times?

I don't debate that sway bars will certainly reduce roll and may instill some additional confidence (false confidence maybe?), but on a car that's driven on street, are sway bars on the M235 really necessary? I've had my M235 for about a month now, thrown it around quite a bit, and don't find it to have excessive roll. Yes, it does roll a bit, but it's very acceptable, IMO. If anything, the car could benefit from a little more camber upfront or a square tire/wheel set up (i.e. 18X8 245/35 at all four corners).

Some amount of roll helps a driver better gauge approaching limits. Going overly stiff with swaybars can over tax the tires quicker, thus the car typically becomes unglued much quicker, possibly catching a driver off guard. Three wheeling it on a driveway curb isn't good and that tells me the wheel travel is lacking and stiffer sway bars end up removing even more travel on bumpy surfaces. Not good for a street car, assuming that's where you do most of your driving. On a glass smooth track, that isn't a problem.

When one adds swaybars, you should start looking at the tires and alignment too to get them up to snuff with bars. Take a look at the BMW M235 "Racing" models. They're running 18X10 rims at the four corners, H&R sway bars (adjustable front, non-adjustable rear), KW dampers, and H&R springs.

Race car parts often times don't work well on the street. I plan on measuring the OEM bars this weekend. I'm now curious. I come from the 2011-2014 WRX world and we saw that in most cases, 2011-2014 WRXs actually saw better auto-x times running the rather thin 21mm/16mm stock sway bars. The cars rolled a lot more, but they actually gripped better. The M235 is about 3" lower overall and the bars feel thicker given the lack of roll I'm feeling. I'm not saying that a WRX can be compared to an M235, but less roll isn't always better. One should always be cautious about manufacturer claims and internet reviews including those from third parties. In many cases, the advantages are overstated and the disadvantages/compromises are grossly understated.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Not trying to be argumentative, but has a track experienced person even verified that aftermarket sway bars have actually lowered their times?

I don't debate that sway bars will certainly reduce roll and may instill some additional confidence (false confidence maybe?), but on a car that's driven on street, are sway bars on the M235 really necessary? I've had my M235 for about a month now, thrown it around quite a bit, and don't find it to have excessive roll. Yes, it does roll a bit, but it's very acceptable, IMO. If anything, the car could benefit from a little more camber upfront or a square tire/wheel set up (i.e. 18X8 245/35 at all four corners).

Some amount of roll helps a driver better gauge approaching limits. Going overly stiff with swaybars can over tax the tires quicker, thus the car typically becomes unglued much quicker, possibly catching a driver off guard. Three wheeling it on a driveway curb isn't good and that tells me the wheel travel is lacking and stiffer sway bars end up removing even more travel on bumpy surfaces. Not good for a street car, assuming that's where you do most of your driving. On a glass smooth track, that isn't a problem.

When one adds swaybars, you should start looking at the tires and alignment too to get them up to snuff with bars. Take a look at the BMW M235 "Racing" models. They're running 18X10 rims at the four corners, H&R sway bars (adjustable front, non-adjustable rear), KW dampers, and H&R springs.

Race car parts often times don't work well on the street. I plan on measuring the OEM bars this weekend. I'm now curious. I come from the 2011-2014 WRX world and we saw that in most cases, 2011-2014 WRXs actually saw better auto-x times running the rather thin 21mm/16mm stock sway bars. The cars rolled a lot more, but they actually gripped better. The M235 is about 3" lower overall and the bars feel thicker given the lack of roll I'm feeling. I'm not saying that a WRX can be compared to an M235, but less roll isn't always better. One should always be cautious about manufacturer claims and internet reviews including those from third parties. In many cases, the advantages are overstated and the disadvantages/compromises are grossly understated.

Don't worry, I don't see this as being argumentative.

I have had the car on the track with and without the sway bars -- my times were consistently better with them. However, I agree, for a car mostly driven on the street, they are unnecessary. The modification is time consuming/difficult, and it simply is not necessary if you aren't on the track.

Also, on the street, you are correct, the car does not have much body roll at all. I never noticed that it had (what I believed to be) excessive body roll until I was on track and someone took a few pictures of my car mid-corner. I also felt like the chassis got upset in quick transitions on chicanes and esses. The bars seem to have fixed that problem (at least on the mechanical end, not necessarily the human end).

One other thing -- the comment I made about three-wheeling. If you have ever been to Los Angeles, the roads here are not what you would call "good" and the driveways are what you would call "steep." Normally, no, the car does not three-wheel. However, on some particularly steep driveways, it does that. I wouldn't call it a common occurrence. I specifically used the H&R bars because it was the bar used by the M235i racing. My logic was that the bar (probably) worked well with the geometry of the suspension and the chassis.

I agree with you -- this is definitely not the first modification someone should make. When I got the car back in 2014, the first real modification I made was camber plates and a square tire/wheel setup, as you mentioned. The car is screaming for additional camber up front (and a little more in the rear). In fact, if I had to tell someone what three mods to do and then never do another mod it would be (in this order) 1. LSD 2. camber plates (or M3 LCAs) and 3. square wheels/tires.

I hope that clears things up.

[jaboyd]

In general suspension/handling upgrades rated from most significant to least are as follows: 1) Springs, 2) Swaybar size, 4) damping settings, 5) Swaybar setting. Or said differently for modest changes a swaybar upgrade will provide a noticeable improvement on an otherwise stock suspension. Sprrings will make the most significant change and usually accompanied w/bigger bars. The LCA upgrade is really a suspension alignment modification that adds static camber and caster which also increases dynamic camber. The LCA upgrade is probably the least costly and least aggressive upgrade on a stock car.

[eclipes]

which sway bar yields the most upgrade? front or rear? or do i really need to do both ends to see results?

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by eclipes

which sway bar yields the most upgrade? front or rear? or do i really need to do both ends to see results?

Depends on what handling characteristics you are trying achieve. Larger (stiffer) front bar in relation to rear,more understeer.Larger rear rear in relation to front more oversteer or in street cars closer to neutral. I suppose in a 2 Series,with lots of understeer, you could just install a larger rear bar.

http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/artic...ybar_setup.htm