[Cherub77]

I really like Model S and have pre ordered a model 3, expected delivery will probably be the back end of 2019 but I believe it's the future!

[Hanchurch]

Yep me too, I test drove a model S a couple of years ago in Norway, it was awesome. I would definitely think of buying one in the future.

[asif03]

Bit of a Tesla geek here. Love the Model S. It's out of my budget though unfortunately

The Model 3 does look appealing however I want to see the end product in person. Could well be something I go for. I'm a geek when it comes to tech and I love cars (if you didn't notice haha) so the two combined are quite heavenly for me.

Didn't know the time until Model 3's are delivered is that far away though?!

[Cherub77]

Didn't know the time until Model 3's are delivered is that far away though?!

I was told that they hope to start the first deliveries by the end of 2017, starting with people that work for tesla or current model S/X owners, then west cost of the started moving east across the world, then right hand drive so it might take a while!

[335dJa]

I wouldn't say I'm a tesla geek but I really appreciate what Elon is trying to do. My new house is having solar panels galore.
I preordered at 3.45am on the reveal day. I don't expect to see it until late 2018 earliest. Works well for my current Pcp though.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Yes Tesla are investing a lot in production of cars.

However, the entire electric car market is a bit of smoke and mirrors.

While yes Tesla are looking at (or have bought their own lithium mine in the states, the next place to easily extract it is Bolivia, which means trains or ships.
The miners in places outside the USA and Australia get paid bugger all and work in horrendous conditions.

The mines and associated effluent can devestate huge areas of land.

There are very few reconditioning plants that can handle a lithium battery pack the size fitted to a tesla.

At present only Tesla in the states can recycle their batteries, so we are back to ships now.

The cost of car disposal sits with the manufacturer, so in say 10 years, will costs of tesla be the same when disposal, recycling and costs of handling dangerous substances are factored in?

The extended use of electric will also put a greater demand on power plants to generate more power.

So while someone sits there all smug in their green car, think of the extended supply chain Eco costs and impact on lives and other hidden costs.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Yes Tesla are investing a lot in production of cars.

However, the entire electric car market is a bit of smoke and mirrors.

While yes Tesla are looking at (or have bought their own lithium mine in the states, the next place to easily extract it is Bolivia, which means trains or ships.
The miners in places outside the USA and Australia get paid bugger all and work in horrendous conditions.

The mines and associated effluent can devestate huge areas of land.

There are very few reconditioning plants that can handle a lithium battery pack the size fitted to a tesla.

At present only Tesla in the states can recycle their batteries, so we are back to ships now.

The cost of car disposal sits with the manufacturer, so in say 10 years, will costs of tesla be the same when disposal, recycling and costs of handling dangerous substances are factored in?

The extended use of electric will also put a greater demand on power plants to generate more power.

So while someone sits there all smug in their green car, think of the extended supply chain Eco costs and impact on lives and other hidden costs.

They're lovely cars but I couldn't agree with you more, Brigand

And it would take a fair amount of imported coal to generate the electricity required to charge a UK Tesla for a year :

[335dJa]

The electric car industry may not be the be all and end all but it's a damn sight better than 100 year old fossil fuel tech.
My car will run on solar energy, as will most of my house.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by 335dJa

The electric car industry may not be the be all and end all but it's a damn sight better than 100 year old fossil fuel tech.
My car will run on solar energy, as will most of my house.

Get me right I am not defending petrol / diesel.

It's just a huge number of Eco cocks bang on about saving the planet, however their cars actually do a huge amount of harm within its complicated supply chain.

Okay so your car and house run on solar power?

You don't buy anything off amazon?
You only buy local produce, nothing shipped by air?
You don't buy clothing made by exceptionally low paid, almost slave labour?

On the solar panels you use?
They also suffer from not being as Eco or recyclable as it first appears.
The chemicals they use destroy the environment.
Also a large amount are made in countries with slightly lower health and safety concerns, they also get transported from say China to the UK by sea.

So yes solar / electric cars are better than cars kicking out pollution, however a lot of that pollution and actual Eco damage is moved back down the supply chain.

[E60MKF]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Get me right I am not defending petrol / diesel.

It's just a huge number of Eco cocks bang on about saving the planet, however their cars actually do a huge amount of harm within its complicated supply chain.

Okay so your car and house run on solar power?

You don't buy anything off amazon?
You only buy local produce, nothing shipped by air?
You don't buy clothing made by exceptionally low paid, almost slave labour?

On the solar panels you use?
They also suffer from not being as Eco or recyclable as it first appears.
The chemicals they use destroy the environment.
Also a large amount are made in countries with slightly lower health and safety concerns, they also get transported from say China to the UK by sea.

So yes solar / electric cars are better than cars kicking out pollution, however a lot of that pollution and actual Eco damage is moved back down the supply chain.

But all this damage in supply chain is currently being cause by making our cars right now.. So it still is more economical to have a tesla

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by E60MKF

But all this damage in supply chain is currently being cause by making our cars right now.. So it still is more economical to have a tesla

No it's not, the electric car and its reliance on batteries and lighter alloys brings its own world of pain.

yes they are economical, however tesla owners are still raping the planet and killing people that are mining for lithium, who are being killed or injured from the acids used in solar panels and specific battery or solar type parts.

So I am happy that we reduce the impact on our cities but people need to remove their rose tinted glasses.

Eco cars kill the environment and people, just different people in different places.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Yes Tesla are investing a lot in production of cars.

However, the entire electric car market is a bit of smoke and mirrors.

While yes Tesla are looking at (or have bought their own lithium mine in the states, the next place to easily extract it is Bolivia, which means trains or ships.
The miners in places outside the USA and Australia get paid bugger all and work in horrendous conditions.

The mines and associated effluent can devestate huge areas of land.

There are very few reconditioning plants that can handle a lithium battery pack the size fitted to a tesla.

At present only Tesla in the states can recycle their batteries, so we are back to ships now.

The cost of car disposal sits with the manufacturer, so in say 10 years, will costs of tesla be the same when disposal, recycling and costs of handling dangerous substances are factored in?

The extended use of electric will also put a greater demand on power plants to generate more power.

So while someone sits there all smug in their green car, think of the extended supply chain Eco costs and impact on lives and other hidden costs.

That sums it up very well.

I'd be very interested in a truly ECO car but there's a long way to go until the components are (relatively) environmentally friendly and the electricity production is from renewables. Local solar is tricky when the car tends to be in use.

[InquisitiveA]

I think there's a high chance that my next car will be a Tesla or equivalent, albeit that I won't be changing this one for at least 5 years I don't think.

I considered a Tesla briefly before I ordered mine. It was crossed off my list almost immediately due to cost but also I don't have somewhere to park and charge it (don't have a garage, car parked outside my house in an inconvenient location for charging) and I sometimes drive more than 200 miles a day. Not often, but often enough to make not being able to do so without stopping annoying.

I'm hoping that by the time I come to change, costs will have come down, range increased, and charging infrastructure will have matured a fair bit.

[Tengocity]

I had a drive of a model S and was reasonably impressed, and awaited the Model 3 with anticipation, but the looks left me cold.

As we are always likely to be a multi car household then am electric car makes good sense as one of them.

Can't say Im Overly fussed about the global environmental creds of them, but if they work for my pocket and reduce local pollution where I live then that will be compelling enough.

Not saying that all that other shit Brigand is harping on about isn't important to sort, but genuinely it's one of a thousand global issues I've got little or no impact on sorting.

I know that sounds terribly apathetic, but shit happens with 8 billion of us self indulgent, self absorbed and primarily selfish people on the planet.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

I had a drive of a model S and was reasonably impressed, and awaited the Model 3 with anticipation, but the looks left me cold.

As we are always likely to be a multi car household then am electric car makes good sense as one of them.

Can't say Im Overly fussed about the global environmental creds of them, but if they work for my pocket and reduce local pollution where I live then that will be compelling enough.

Not saying that all that other shit Brigand is harping on about isn't important to sort, but genuinely it's one of a thousand global issues I've got little or no impact on sorting.

I know that sounds terribly apathetic, but shit happens with 8 billion of us self indulgent, self absorbed and primarily selfish people on the planet.

Totally agree and it's pretty much my view.

I just get fed up with Eco people banging on about electric cars and solar power without fully understanding actual global impact.

In the West it's very easy to bang the drum about being Eco friendly at the same time using a huge amount of tech kit, that not only literally rapes the planet and in some cases (conflict minerals, 3rd world countries) where workers have no rights or no one bothers with health and safety.

Look at Apple and Foxconn in China.

Electric makes sense in some parts of the country, however until you can easily get a fiesta / focus size car at same costs, it's not going to work.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Totally agree and it's pretty much my view.

I just get fed up with Eco people banging on about electric cars and solar power without fully understanding actual global impact.

In the West it's very easy to bang the drum about being Eco friendly at the same time using a huge amount of tech kit, that not only literally rapes the planet and in some cases (conflict minerals, 3rd world countries) where workers have no rights or no one bothers with health and safety.

Look at Apple and Foxconn in China.

Electric makes sense in some parts of the country, however until you can easily get a fiesta / focus size car at same costs, it's not going to work.

Yes, but local air quality improvements are a genuine benefit, especially in busy cites and urban areas.

Imagine if all buses and taxis in London were to switch to electric - the difference would be amazing. Though there would likely be even more cyclists and pedestrians killed die to the silence of them!

HGVs would still likely be diesel, but it all has to help.

[Cherub77]

Mr Brigand, no-one was really banging on about being super green by driving a Tesla, I think many of your opinions are correct however the environmental impact if everyone was to drive electric would be astounding in terms of emissions in our cities. You mention the working conditions of miners etc, do you think it's only people mining for electric vehicle raw materials that have it tough? What about fossil fuel vehicle raw materials? Are the raw elements sourced more to your ethical requirement?

I recently read that if 10 million people in the uk installed batteries in there house to store solar energy and top up off the grid off peak if required we could close between 4/5 power stations. If 1 man runs an electric car from a coal power station there is no point, if/when the majority of people run electric vehicles from power sourced from wind/solar/hydro etc sources then it will make a massive difference to the air we breath and the planet we leave behind.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Cherub77

Mr Brigand, no-one was really banging on about being super green by driving a Tesla, I think many of your opinions are correct however the environmental impact if everyone was to drive electric would be astounding in terms of emissions in our cities. You mention the working conditions of miners etc, do you think it's only people mining for electric vehicle raw materials that have it tough? What about fossil fuel vehicle raw materials? Are the raw elements sourced more to your ethical requirement?

I recently read that if 10 million people in the uk installed batteries in there house to store solar energy and top up off the grid off peak if required we could close between 4/5 power stations. If 1 man runs an electric car from a coal power station there is no point, if/when the majority of people run electric vehicles from power sourced from wind/solar/hydro etc sources then it will make a massive difference to the air we breath and the planet we leave behind.

Actually unless China, India and the US, reduce output of emissions, then the UK could actually turn everything off and have zero output, however the impact at a global level would be swallowed by those 3 within I believe 6 months...

To get those 10 million people running lithium batteries, means more mining in Bolivia or China, more shipping from Bolivia to China and then China to UK.

Yes it would impact the air we breathe in the UK, however what about the rest of the world?

Lithium mining increases will be due solely to the use of cars, they require huge battery packs.

Battery packs that at present have limited recycling facilities globally.

Those minerals and metals come from some of the most heavily polluting mines on the planet, or use caustic / acidic processes, the output of which ends up in rivers, fields etc.

European fuel for power stations, is on the whole more controlled, however we should not be buying from countries that do not protect its workers.

As I said it's great and we should be doing it, just we must remember the actual costs to people and the planet down the supply chain.

We kill different people in different places in different ways - is being ECO in the west.

It is important we do not lose sight of that, as that is what actually needs changed.

[gangzoom]

^^ Do anyone here really care about the environment....

I didn't swap my old 335i for a Nissan Leaf to go and hug trees. I did so that I can try to see what this EV stuff was about without committing stupid amounts of £££ whilst enabling me to save up enough £££ for a Tesla P85D quicker - Which is what I'll be replacing the Leaf with when it's PCP contract is up in March 2017.

This is what a 2nd generation 7 seater, 2.5ton EV can do to a combustion 'sports' car... Imagine how quick these things will be in 10-15 years time!!! Any potential tree hugging benefit are secondary.

[creepy coupe]

Electric cars are like alcohol free beer. You still piss as much, you just don't enjoy yourself doing it.

[subsy]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

^^ Do anyone here really care about the environment....

I didn't swap my old 335i for a Nissan Leaf to go and hug trees. I did so that I can try to see what this EV stuff was about without committing stupid amounts of £££ whilst enabling me to save up enough £££ for a Tesla P85D quicker - Which is what I'll be replacing the Leaf with when it's PCP contract is up in March 2017.

This is what a 2nd generation 7 seater, 2.5ton EV can do to a combustion 'sports' car... Imagine how quick these things will be in 10-15 years time!!! Any potential tree hugging benefit are secondary.

Whilst it's undoubtedly a marvel of engineering, honestly the performance you're talking about is useless in all but pub bragging rights. Why on earth someone who by their own admission doesn't care about the environment - and therefore not buying for any perceived Eco benefits - would prioritise such bragging rights over everything else that is integral in driving enjoyment is beyond me.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

^^ Do anyone here really care about the environment....

I didn't swap my old 335i for a Nissan Leaf to go and hug trees. I did so that I can try to see what this EV stuff was about without committing stupid amounts of £££ whilst enabling me to save up enough £££ for a Tesla P85D quicker - Which is what I'll be replacing the Leaf with when it's PCP contract is up in March 2017.

This is what a 2nd generation 7 seater, 2.5ton EV can do to a combustion 'sports' car... Imagine how quick these things will be in 10-15 years time!!! Any potential tree hugging benefit are secondary.

Out of curiosity what is the comparison between a Tesla and say Peugeot or Ferrarri or even a Seat Cupra on Nurburgring times?

0-60 times are fun for top trumps, however how does it manage with say full power for 10 mins or so.