[330iE90]

Hello I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this alignment looks ok. I have a 2006 330i e90 with the B12 suspension kit. It also has the 219m wheels with 235/40/18 and 265/35/18 tires.

https://ibb.co/iN6MyF

Thank you!

What exactly is your definition of "ok?"

[patsbimmer1]

It looks fine. Front right camber and rear is on the bubble but there's nothing on that print out that would cause premature tire wear. My question is did they reset the steering angle sensor after the alignment? This looks like a Hunter printout which has Codelink to reset the Steering Angle sensor if they have the associated equipment with the Hunter Aligner. If they didn't do that i'd find someone who can otherwise your DSC isn't getting the correct input.

[Will_460cs]

ok but not great...

I normally shoot for 7' per wheel front, equal camber (factory is .55degrees)..
Rear should be about 9' per wheel, 1.8 camber (so this was spot on)...

Sadly many hunters have the wrong data, this is a case in point..

[patsbimmer1]

Originally Posted by Will_460cs

ok but not great...

I normally shoot for 7' per wheel front, equal camber (factory is .55degrees)..
Rear should be about 9' per wheel, 1.8 camber (so this was spot on)...

Sadly many hunters have the wrong data, this is a case in point..

I'm curious why you say Hunter has incorrect data? They are the approved alignment supplier for BMW so this confuses me.

[Will_460cs]

BMW use KDS, unless they have swapped vendor, this is different system. The Hunter system is very good but it susceptible to 2 issues : Operator precision and raw data.

I don't know why the data is wrong on the Hunter but I've noticed over the last few week of looking at alignment posts that the specs are different to BMW published TIS specifications, I published TIS on another post when the same questions cropped up, Hunter often confuse Total toe with Wheel Toe.

So typically Hunter data is 50-100% more toe, and whilst not a big deal, it is adrift from the published TIS from BMW..

Also most Hunter operators fail to centre the Hunter tool on the wheel - How many take the time to measure and centralise the tool... Why is that a big deal well if you have a concave wheel and the tool isn't central you will get a bogus read..
Although every operator says this isn't possible I have access to Hunter machine and a operator and we tried it out on a M5 E60 then my way by centralising the tool - it made a big difference to the measurement and the wheels are concave.

This i think explains why some people can leave a Hunter alignment drive to different shop and get different readings, Also how many Hunter shops apprioraitely add weight to your car and check tyre pressures (in my neck of the woods its rarity for them to be bothered to do this) ..

Hope that answer your question!

So after all that I still prefer to do this stuff my self at home with my own setup, sure it take me a day and I re-measure perhaps 3-4 times, but the car drive spot on and its the same way racing teams have setup rally cars to circuit cars for the last 50 years.

[patsbimmer1]

Originally Posted by Will_460cs

BMW use KDS, unless they have swapped vendor, this is different system. The Hunter system is very good but it susceptible to 2 issues : Operator precision and raw data.

I don't know why the data is wrong on the Hunter but I've noticed over the last few week of looking at alignment posts that the specs are different to BMW published TIS specifications, I published TIS on another post when the same questions cropped up, Hunter often confuse Total toe with Wheel Toe.

So typically Hunter data is 50-100% more toe, and whilst not a big deal, it is adrift from the published TIS from BMW..

Also most Hunter operators fail to centre the Hunter tool on the wheel - How many take the time to measure and centralise the tool... Why is that a big deal well if you have a concave wheel and the tool isn't central you will get a bogus read..
Although every operator says this isn't possible I have access to Hunter machine and a operator and we tried it out on a M5 E60 then my way by centralising the tool - it made a big difference to the measurement and the wheels are concave.

This i think explains why some people can leave a Hunter alignment drive to different shop and get different readings, Also how many Hunter shops apprioraitely add weight to your car and check tyre pressures (in my neck of the woods its rarity for them to be bothered to do this) ..

Hope that answer your question!

So after all that I still prefer to do this stuff my self at home with my own setup, sure it take me a day and I re-measure perhaps 3-4 times, but the car drive spot on and its the same way racing teams have setup rally cars to circuit cars for the last 50 years.

You're not incorrect, BMW does use KDS but that system is made for them by Hunter Engineering (http://www.hunter.com/oem/bmw). I've had the pleasure of visiting Hunter Engineerings headquarters in St. Louis as well as they're manufacturing facilities in Missisippi and I have personally seen them build the equipment for BMW and Mercedes. I used to have pictures of the racks waiting to be shipped with the dealer names on them.

As far as the specs, I do know what you are saying regarding the difference between the TIS spec vs. what is in a Hunter machine and when I have inquired about this I am consistently told that every spec in the machine is directly taken from every OEM. For the 10+ years I have been using Hunter equipment the only issue I have had is if my machine needed a spec update which we do on a yearly basis.

When you are talking about the Hunter tool I am guessing you mean the targets. Do you know if you are using the Hawkeye Elite quick grabs or the old rim clamp targets? I would agree that with the quick grabs centering the target on the wheel can be an issue since all of the readings are based off of the center of the wheel. I have not ever had that issue with the rim clamp design since you cannot un-center the target unless you use two different outer grab points on the body of the target which you would never have a reason to do.

Now, you bring up weighting the vehicle which is another point that is often brought up. From what I understand for some time now the newer software for BMW doesn't require any weight to be added to a vehicle unless there is a variance in ride height which can be brought back into spec by adding weight. You could comp the same car on the same machine 10x and come up with 10 different sets of readings but all of them in spec. It's simply because you are dealing in tenths and hundreths of a measurement. The larger concern is whether or not the steering angle is being reset after an alignment which isn't happening at home unless you have a scan tool capable of resetting this input. If your not resetting this input then your DSC will not work effectively. Race teams can get away with "close enough" because they aren't necessarily worried about long term tire wear and sacrifice this for extreme handling. That doesn't necessarily work on the street. Not to say I haven't done on personal cars to get them drivable it but it's not something I would perform on a customers car.

[juld0zer]

Hunter makes their version of KDS. The actual KDS system (hardware and software) found in most dealers and BMW training centres is actually made by Beissbarth, a subsidiary of Bosch/SPX. I've not used a Hunter system before but the Beissbarth system is locked down, unlike generic/non OEM specific systems. You dont have as much freedom. The vehicle data is very good but there are some issues - like currently we have no specific data for the F86. We have to use F16 data.

Currently, the latest and greatest is KDS 3D which uses four cameras and four magnetic reflector boards which you attach to the wheel bolt heads. We have data for all makes too so we can use it on almost any vehicle. The only issue is if the bolt heads are not flat or if they have plastic domes like on a lot of Japanese cars.

Manual ride height input does away with the need for weighting the car. In fact, on one rainy evening i attempted ballasting my car as per BMW's instructions, manually entering the ride heights and it was very difficult to work with. Hardly anything went into spec. IMO, ballasting the car was more of a requirement for KDS2 and earlier system which may not have had the horsepower to work things out.
Even the run out compensation is pretty damn good. I accidentally stuck the sensor board on a lock nut head (taller than a standard wheel bolt) and realised this halfway. Quit the procedure, started from scratch and the figures were pretty much the same.

You are 100% spot on about the variances in measurement. Unfortunately with these optical based systems, interference can be an issue but KDS 3D seems pretty good so far. It's just extremely sensitive to the point we've had to have our 4 post hoist readjusted 4 times (and i've secretly drawn a line to indicate my ideal ramp level for good results). KDS2 would have issues in afternoon sunlight, tow truck flashing lights, hazard lights etc.

For B12, i would use the SZP5A option if it available for you.

[Will_460cs]

Originally Posted by patsbimmer1

You're not incorrect, BMW does use KDS but that system is made for them by Hunter Engineering (http://www.hunter.com/oem/bmw). I've had the pleasure of visiting Hunter Engineerings headquarters in St. Louis as well as they're manufacturing facilities in Missisippi and I have personally seen them build the equipment for BMW and Mercedes. I used to have pictures of the racks waiting to be shipped with the dealer names on them.

As far as the specs, I do know what you are saying regarding the difference between the TIS spec vs. what is in a Hunter machine and when I have inquired about this I am consistently told that every spec in the machine is directly taken from every OEM. For the 10+ years I have been using Hunter equipment the only issue I have had is if my machine needed a spec update which we do on a yearly basis.

When you are talking about the Hunter tool I am guessing you mean the targets. Do you know if you are using the Hawkeye Elite quick grabs or the old rim clamp targets? I would agree that with the quick grabs centering the target on the wheel can be an issue since all of the readings are based off of the center of the wheel. I have not ever had that issue with the rim clamp design since you cannot un-center the target unless you use two different outer grab points on the body of the target which you would never have a reason to do.

Now, you bring up weighting the vehicle which is another point that is often brought up. From what I understand for some time now the newer software for BMW doesn't require any weight to be added to a vehicle unless there is a variance in ride height which can be brought back into spec by adding weight. You could comp the same car on the same machine 10x and come up with 10 different sets of readings but all of them in spec. It's simply because you are dealing in tenths and hundreths of a measurement. The larger concern is whether or not the steering angle is being reset after an alignment which isn't happening at home unless you have a scan tool capable of resetting this input. If your not resetting this input then your DSC will not work effectively. Race teams can get away with "close enough" because they aren't necessarily worried about long term tire wear and sacrifice this for extreme handling. That doesn't necessarily work on the street. Not to say I haven't done on personal cars to get them drivable it but it's not something I would perform on a customers car.

Yes I can confirm that not all the Data for even old cars like the E90 is correct, here was a thread I commented on and published the TIS for that vehicle:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21691298

The Hunter that I have access to is a Hunter Hawkeye Elite which is 3 months old, it clamps to the tyres using the system they describe as having no metal contact, problem is its very easy to get it 1 cm off centre. The machine is fantastic I can setup a BMWin about 40 minutes end to end with everything done and double checked twice.


That being said my own personal view is that string alignment is far more precise than any optical alignment if you have solid bushing (bushing settle will be a significant factor on a road car with a few miles). But this method hugely time consuming especially if I'm working by myself. The advantage to me is that I haven't paid £40K for a hunter!,

I have done string alignment and then checked on a Hunter - actually 3 times. String alignment is incredibly subjective to skill level, precision and basic trig, I wouldn't compare this to just getting the wheels straight after as a temporary measure.

I also have the full BMW diagnostic and programming suite so resetting steering angle isn't a problem to me but the range of error I think from memory is .5 degree at the steering end so unless its country mile out it will recalibrate it self when the wheels are go from lock to lock (unless a monkey has setup the steering cockeyed before - had that so many times!)...

I was lucky to be taught by a race team when I started racing Caterham's a few years ago, they were very adamant of the benefits and couldn't justify the expense of high end gear... In the day Supertracker were the norm (not Hunter) and those things were rubbish!

Originally Posted by Will_460cs

That being said my own personal view is that string alignment is far more precise than any optical alignment if you have solid bushing (bushing settle will be a significant factor on a road car with a few miles). But this method hugely time consuming especially if I'm working by myself. The advantage to me is that I haven't paid £40K for a hunter!,

I have done string alignment and then checked on a Hunter - actually 3 times. String alignment is incredibly subjective to skill level, precision and basic trig, I wouldn't compare this to just getting the wheels straight after as a temporary measure.

Troof. Unfortunately the same can be said about any alignment, string or otherwise; unfortunately not every tech is as skilled or cares as much as you would.

For that reason, if the results aren't repeatable, you might as well be flushing the money you spent on that "computerized" alignment right down the toilet.

Home alignments for me from now on. I'm no math wiz, and nailed it the first time out. The ~50k miles of even tread wear on my current set of tires prove that perfectly. If I can do it, anyone can; you just have to want to learn.