[ajfoggy]

What are people in the knows thoughts on this?

I thought helicopters couldn?t or weren?t supposed to fly if they couldn?t see the ground??

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...crash-10746993

[Darth Helmut]

We can fly in cloud but I very much doubt that pilot had an instrument rating nor was the aircraft (a Robinson R44) suitably equipped to fly IFR (Instrument Flight Rules). Young chap looked as if he ran out of experience. It appears he wasn't even fixed on to looking in at his instruments. At 1:22 you can hear a bit of blade slap which could indicate he was in a decent, power reducing and at 1:32 he has approx 45 degrees right angle of bank on with about 15 degrees nose down. Then at 1:42 he reverses that with about 15 degrees nose up and 60 degrees angle of bank to the left. Just prior to impact, you can hear the rotor rpm horn go off as he has probably pulled a shit load of collective. Very sad and a waste.

Instrument flying is a skill that requires practice (a lot of practice) and to launch in poor weather and even attempt to fly on instruments if you have no experience is a sure fire way to end up like that. If you are not properly trained or sufficiently in recent practice, it is not an 'instinctive' type of flying. You have to be trained to fully understand what the instruments are telling you even when the head is trying to tell you something different.

Of course, I don't know the details of that crash and am merely speculating. But my gut instinct suggests the young pilot and the R44 were not equipped to carry out a task taking a wedding party in cloud (or as I suspect, he lifted in shit weather and just cracked on hoping he could pick up some ground references).

[simon.]

Cheers for the insight. Tragic accident but on the face of it, could have been avoided if the pilot had more experience / didn't lift!

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

We can fly in cloud but I very much doubt that pilot had an instrument rating nor was the aircraft (a Robinson R44) suitably equipped to fly IFR (Instrument Flight Rules). Young chap looked as if he ran out of experience. It appears he wasn't even fixed on to looking in at his instruments. At 1:22 you can hear a bit of blade slap which could indicate he was in a decent, power reducing and at 1:32 he has approx 45 degrees right angle of bank on with about 15 degrees nose down. Then at 1:42 he reverses that with about 15 degrees nose up and 60 degrees angle of bank to the left. Just prior to impact, you can hear the rotor rpm horn go off as he has probably pulled a shit load of collective. Very sad and a waste.

Instrument flying is a skill that requires practice (a lot of practice) and to launch in poor weather and even attempt to fly on instruments if you have no experience is a sure fire way to end up like that. If you are not properly trained or sufficiently in recent practice, it is not an 'instinctive' type of flying. You have to be trained to fully understand what the instruments are telling you even when the head is trying to tell you something different.

Of course, I don't know the details of that crash and am merely speculating. But my gut instinct suggests the young pilot and the R44 were not equipped to carry out a task taking a wedding party in cloud (or as I suspect, he lifted in shit weather and just cracked on hoping he could pick up some ground references).

I was just about to say the same.

[bodtwo]

Rafting in the grand canyon, we flew from a ranch down into the canyon, absolutely fantastic, dropping down and then sideways through the feeder canyons and then skimming above the rapids to land on something smaller than a parking space. Very talented ex military pilots.

We spent some time with the pilots before we flew and the first question my other half asked was "do you have children, family?". Both of them did which made her feel much better.

Terrible tragedy that sounds like it should have been avoided.

[JLR1969]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

We can fly in cloud but I very much doubt that pilot had an instrument rating nor was the aircraft (a Robinson R44) suitably equipped to fly IFR (Instrument Flight Rules). Young chap looked as if he ran out of experience. It appears he wasn't even fixed on to looking in at his instruments. At 1:22 you can hear a bit of blade slap which could indicate he was in a decent, power reducing and at 1:32 he has approx 45 degrees right angle of bank on with about 15 degrees nose down. Then at 1:42 he reverses that with about 15 degrees nose up and 60 degrees angle of bank to the left. Just prior to impact, you can hear the rotor rpm horn go off as he has probably pulled a shit load of collective. Very sad and a waste.

Instrument flying is a skill that requires practice (a lot of practice) and to launch in poor weather and even attempt to fly on instruments if you have no experience is a sure fire way to end up like that. If you are not properly trained or sufficiently in recent practice, it is not an 'instinctive' type of flying. You have to be trained to fully understand what the instruments are telling you even when the head is trying to tell you something different.

Of course, I don't know the details of that crash and am merely speculating. But my gut instinct suggests the young pilot and the R44 were not equipped to carry out a task taking a wedding party in cloud (or as I suspect, he lifted in shit weather and just cracked on hoping he could pick up some ground references).

[JLR1969]

Looking at the video I would not have driven the car in those conditions let alone flew

[mikeoz]

Yes no visual reference makes it very hard .
Landing in a Heli in Afghanistan was hairy as soon as you got near the ground the dust kicked up and you could see FA.
Same sort of issue I guess but our pilots had the skills.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by mikeoz

Yes no visual reference makes it very hard .
Landing in a Heli in Afghanistan was hairy as soon as you got near the ground the dust kicked up and you could see FA.
Same sort of issue I guess but our pilots had the skills.

It's not just the skills but also the knowing your limits.

The understanding your real limits is possibly a skill in its own right.

I have seen situations where a Wing Commander wanted a standard 4ship launch at 0900, the Duty Auth (all mil flights need authorised) having had Met input (and the fact it's fucking windy as fuck), has said no flying until weather lifts.

The Wing Commander then putting pressure on the Auth (a FL LT) to just sign the fucking sheet and even going as to far as replacing the Auth with someone else.

As the exceptionally knowledgeable person (that does this shit for a living) has said, it does sound like the need to carry out the task overcame the skill level of the pilot and his ability to go - fuck it, no chance I am doing this trip.


It's a nightmare some of the risks taken with flying, either pilot or aircraft risks.

[Darth Helmut]

Spot on, Briggers.

The skill really is knowing your own limits. No different really from driving or doing anything else that requires judgement. (Flying is a little less forgiving though!)

Old cliche of 'There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots' really does stand true. I've had a few scrapes in 30 or so years of flying but ones where my skill was limited in the early days, luckily I had sage old crusty fuckers (to which I am now!) help me out and point out the error of my ways.

Another old cliche; 'A superior pilot relies on his superior judgement rather than his superior skills or reactions'. That could apply to most things really.

The military prides itself in levelled risk and training is designed to understand this. Unfortunately, the commercial world has different pressures. Surprisingly, very little of military flying is 'life and death if we don't go'. Quite a lot of commercial flying is 'if we dont go, we dont get paid/lose to the competitor'.

Like me, a lot of my mates fly in the commercial and corporate sector and the pressures are very different. I'm lucky in the fact I still fly for the military so there is no financial pressure to launch. One mate in particular was sacked (private corporate pilot for a rich twat, over 5000 hours flying experience) because he refused to launch in shit weather to fly down to Dublin races. He was soon replaced by a 400 hour 20 something pilot who had only ever flown Robinson R22's. Unsurprisingly, the aircraft crashed a few months later killing the pilot and rich twat.....

[mikeoz]

Sounds just to me....for the rich twat any way.

[MickyD'bo]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Spot on, Briggers.

The skill really is knowing your own limits. No different really from driving or doing anything else that requires judgement. (Flying is a little less forgiving though!)

Old cliche of 'There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots' really does stand true. I've had a few scrapes in 30 or so years of flying but ones where my skill was limited in the early days, luckily I had sage old crusty fuckers (to which I am now!) help me out and point out the error of my ways.

Another old cliche; 'A superior pilot relies on his superior judgement rather than his superior skills or reactions'. That could apply to most things really.

The military prides itself in levelled risk and training is designed to understand this. Unfortunately, the commercial world has different pressures. Surprisingly, very little of military flying is 'life and death if we don't go'. Quite a lot of commercial flying is 'if we dont go, we dont get paid/lose to the competitor'.

Like me, a lot of my mates fly in the commercial and corporate sector and the pressures are very different. I'm lucky in the fact I still fly for the military so there is no financial pressure to launch. One mate in particular was sacked (private corporate pilot for a rich twat, over 5000 hours flying experience) because he refused to launch in shit weather to fly down to Dublin races. He was soon replaced by a 400 hour 20 something pilot who had only ever flown Robinson R22's. Unsurprisingly, the aircraft crashed a few months later killing the pilot and rich twat.....

I knew Pete Barnes. He's the guy that crashed into a crane over London flying commercial in bad weather.


https://g.co/kgs/7C726N

[ajfoggy]

Good info in the replies!!!! Cheers!

We went in a helicopter in St Lucia while on honeymoon in what look like very similar conditions to that. I didn't enjoy that one bit. Will definitely think again and be asking some questions should the situation arise again.

[MashinBenzin]

Yep, really interesting insights guys, thanks for taking the time.

[Darth Helmut]

Completely agree with regard to various 'joy rides'. You really do need to do some research about the outfit thats running them, who's flying it and what safety aspects they have in place. UK and most of Europe tend to be pretty squeaky clean due to having to comply with EASA and the CAA. Rest of the world....not so much so.

And I certainly wouldn't step in to a fecking Robinson R22 or R44!! The only difference between the two is you only kill two people in an R22 as opposed to four in an R44.....

A question you should ask if considering stepping foot in a pleasure flight is; 'If that helicopter was a bird, would I stick my dick in it?'

[Danny Fireblade]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Completely agree with regard to various 'joy rides'. You really do need to do some research about the outfit thats running them, who's flying it and what safety aspects they have in place. UK and most of Europe tend to be pretty squeaky clean due to having to comply with EASA and the CAA. Rest of the world....not so much so.

And I certainly wouldn't step in to a fecking Robinson R22 or R44!! The only difference between the two is you only kill two people in an R22 as opposed to four in an R44.....

A question you should ask if considering stepping foot in a pleasure flight is; 'If that helicopter was a bird, would I stick my dick in it?'

It sounds as if you are more choosy over helicopters than birds

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Completely agree with regard to various 'joy rides'. You really do need to do some research about the outfit thats running them, who's flying it and what safety aspects they have in place. UK and most of Europe tend to be pretty squeaky clean due to having to comply with EASA and the CAA. Rest of the world....not so much so.

And I certainly wouldn't step in to a fecking Robinson R22 or R44!! The only difference between the two is you only kill two people in an R22 as opposed to four in an R44.....

A question you should ask if considering stepping foot in a pleasure flight is; 'If that helicopter was a bird, would I stick my dick in it?'

What about the US?

There was me looking forward to my New York helicopter tour!

[Darth Helmut]

Bloody right I'm more fussy about helicopters!!

Tengocity , to be honest do a bit of research first of all. Choose one of the many New York companies and have a google search to see their history. The US FAA regs are pretty stringent but their are some cowboy outfits who bend the regs. If there is one thing I'd research, its if I was about to jump in to some other fuckers helicopter. Its not like an open bus tour!

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Bloody right I'm more fussy about helicopters!!

Tengocity , to be honest do a bit of research first of all. Choose one of the many New York companies and have a google search to see their history. The US FAA regs are pretty stringent but their are some cowboy outfits who bend the regs. If there is one thing I'd research, its if I was about to jump in to some other fuckers helicopter. Its not like an open bus tour!

Ok, I'd assumed the FAA was similar standards as the Europe so that's reassuring, as after your last post I did wonder.

[Darth Helmut]

I guess I'm a bit more paranoid about helicopters!

[ajfoggy]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Ok, I'd assumed the FAA was similar standards as the Europe so that's reassuring, as after your last post I did wonder.

We did one in New York as well. It was ok and they just fly around the water now since the helicopter crashed into the building years ago. Another time I had not checked anything out....

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by ajfoggy

We did one in New York as well. It was ok and they just fly around the water now since the helicopter crashed into the building years ago. Another time I had not checked anything out....

Was it worth it?