[mcoops]

Thought this was a fascinating quote - from a book called 'The Road to Somewhere' by David Goodhart (I've not read it, just liked the quote). The idea makes a lot of sense - people who don't vote purely based on economic outcome are not (necessarily) stupid. The may value perceived recognition and/or fairness more highly:

"One of the best explanations for inchoate anti-establishment sentiments can be found in the famous social psychology experiment, the ‘ultimatum game’. In a one-off deal someone is given £100 to share with someone else in whatever proportion they choose, but if the other person rejects the share they are offered as unfair neither person receives anything. The experiment usually finds that if the second person is offered much below £30 the deal is rejected and neither party gets any money, showing that people place recognition, reputation and a sense of fairness before simple gain.

This explains why the remain camp’s complaint that working class people who voted Brexit or who oppose a more globalised economy are only harming themselves is missing something important. People are prepared to trade economic gain for political agency and the prospect of a society that takes them more seriously. (They may also be acting out of sheer vindictiveness, ‘if I cannot have the good life, why should the other lot’.)"

[robbiep]

I'd disagree. It's a lot simpler than that.

For Trump voters, those that tended to support him were the demographic that have been left behind in the last 20+ years. They've seen all the 'real' jobs vanish, to be replaced with work that requires a high level of education - which they don't have, so are excluded from. You've even got the basic qualification in some States in the US for a state trooper to be a degree. For no good reason that I can see. Those people see all the highly educated 'talking heads' telling them that if they vote for Trump they're stupid, and naturally they pushed back against it.

As for Brexit. Well, if the EU is so wonderful then where was everyone telling us it was so wonderful ? I went into that referendum not knowing which way I was going to vote, and actively looking for good information. I didn't find it. In fact, the best information that I found came (sadly) from a UKIP leaflet, which asked the question "If this was not a vote on leaving the EU, but a vote on whether to join the EU or not, which way would you vote ?"

Regards Corbyn. Economic illiteracy to say the least. But we shouldn't expect much else. A generation who are required to get a degree to be able to get on the job ladder - and that degree is going to saddle them with £30k+ of debt ... lets face it, can you really blame them for supporting someone who promises to get rid of that debt ?

In all of these cases (and it's a bit odd that you put Corbyn in with Trump and Brexit, as Corbyn lost) you've very much got the 'echo chamber' effect : where the people 'in the know' just keep on hearing their own viewpoint, because they're surrounded by equally well-educated proteges and companions. They don't hear the 'other' viewpoint, so they persuaded themselves that it didn't really exist.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by robbiep

I'd disagree. It's a lot simpler than that.

For Trump voters, those that tended to support him were the demographic that have been left behind in the last 20+ years. They've seen all the 'real' jobs vanish, to be replaced with work that requires a high level of education - which they don't have, so are excluded from. You've even got the basic qualification in some States in the US for a state trooper to be a degree. For no good reason that I can see. Those people see all the highly educated 'talking heads' telling them that if they vote for Trump they're stupid, and naturally they pushed back against it.

As for Brexit. Well, if the EU is so wonderful then where was everyone telling us it was so wonderful ? I went into that referendum not knowing which way I was going to vote, and actively looking for good information. I didn't find it. In fact, the best information that I found came (sadly) from a UKIP leaflet, which asked the question "If this was not a vote on leaving the EU, but a vote on whether to join the EU or not, which way would you vote ?"

Regards Corbyn. Economic illiteracy to say the least. But we shouldn't expect much else. A generation who are required to get a degree to be able to get on the job ladder - and that degree is going to saddle them with £30k+ of debt ... lets face it, can you really blame them for supporting someone who promises to get rid of that debt ?

In all of these cases (and it's a bit odd that you put Corbyn in with Trump and Brexit, as Corbyn lost) you've very much got the 'echo chamber' effect : where the people 'in the know' just keep on hearing their own viewpoint, because they're surrounded by equally well-educated proteges and companions. They don't hear the 'other' viewpoint, so they persuaded themselves that it didn't really exist.

Fair points. In the case of Trump, not sure what you said is very different from what I posted. It's exactly the point about political agency.

In the case of Corbyn you are speculating/assuming the reason why people voted for him, possibly reflecting your own bias to rational / economic argument. The quote was suggesting that people may vote for different reasons, perhaps even in spite of not believing the economics.

On Brexit, your example is just about you, which I'm going to assume is accurate

[Sasquartch]

For me Brexit wasn't about just economics

I saw the UK with a large number of people coming to the UK doing, in many cases, entry level jobs, at least to start with.

With three children who will all need work shortly it's difficult for them to get a job unless they have a degree and even then it's not easy (obviously depends on what degree you have). The other part of the equation is that with a steadily growing population there is a shortage of housing which has made home ownership very difficult for many.

So I vote Brexit in the hope that house prices would fall. Yes fall. And young people might have a chance of what I had, ie home ownership in my early twenties and opportunities to get on without being highly educated as long as you put the work in.

Am I stupid ? I don't think so despite voting to leave. And I fully support immigration where it's needed. But at some point quality of life has to override 'wealth' otherwise what's the point.

[RustyBitz]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

For me Brexit wasn't about just economics

I saw the UK with a large number of people coming to the UK doing, in many cases, entry level jobs, at least to start with.

With three children who will all need work shortly it's difficult for them to get a job unless they have a degree and even then it's not easy (obviously depends on what degree you have). The other part of the equation is that with a steadily growing population there is a shortage of housing which has made home ownership very difficult for many.

So I vote Brexit in the hope that house prices would fall. Yes fall. And young people might have a chance of what I had, ie home ownership in my early twenties and opportunities to get on without being highly educated as long as you put the work in.

Am I stupid ? I don't think so despite voting to leave. And I fully support immigration where it's needed. But at some point quality of life has to override 'wealth' otherwise what's the point.

Great points on Brexit.

I'm all for immigration my grandparents are immigrants from the 60s.

What cracks me up was they worked three jobs each just for a roof over their heads. It annoys me when you see people especially in cities and towns where immigrants can use selling the big issue as "employment" which then gives limited access to benefits.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dai...Big-Issue.html

The best I heard for staying in the EU was their access to the E111 card, they haven't left the country for the last 10 years!

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

The other part of the equation is that with a steadily growing population there is a shortage of housing which has made home ownership very difficult for many.

Am I stupid ? I don't think so despite voting to leave. And I fully support immigration where it's needed. But at some point quality of life has to override 'wealth' otherwise what's the point.

Agree with these thoughtful points. Housing doesn't come up nearly as often as NHS, pensions etc. on this forum but is a proper national crisis. I don't feel like I know a lot about it, but suspect that there is a bigger impact in this area from immigration than on employment. The UK will probably struggle to meet demand for many jobs without enough immigration, but I'm pretty sure we don't need even one extra person to fill up our pitiful housing stock.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by mcoops

Agree with these thoughtful points. Housing doesn't come up nearly as often as NHS, pensions etc. on this forum but is a proper national crisis. I don't feel like I know a lot about it, but suspect that there is a bigger impact in this area from immigration than on employment. The UK will probably struggle to meet demand for many jobs without enough immigration, but I'm pretty sure we don't need even one extra person to fill up our pitiful housing stock.

But we might to build it??

I think the housing crisis is the hardest to solve - build too many, push down prices, create a bunch of voters with losses and possibly negative equity - not good for the feel good factor.

Let them rise, youngsters cant get on ladder except with help from wealthy parents - increases the divide between haves and have nots...

[RustyBitz]

I feel for people who can't purchase a home in their own town due to people purchasing them as holiday homes and using them a handful of times.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

I think the housing crisis is the hardest to solve - build too many, push down prices, create a bunch of voters with losses and possibly negative equity - not good for the feel good factor.

.

Would be interested if anyone in the industry has a view on this. Surely we are an awfully long way short of the point where supply of housing outstrips demand, to the point where prices are depressed?

[Edinburra]

Good points, I voted to leave as I believe that we have too much government, in Scotland we have four layers, Local, Scottish, United Kingdom and European. We do not require that many. Two would do quite adequately, a good strong local government and a United Kingdom Government.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by RustyBitz

I feel for people who can't purchase a home in their own town due to people purchasing them as holiday homes and using them a handful of times.

Well they introduced second home stamp duty to help deter such things, which adds a 3% surcharge on the whole purchase price....

Having grown up just outside the Peak District I understand that concern - it requires more affordable housing to be built and retained for local people but obviously in the places where this happens, new build is very difficult to get through planning!

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by mcoops

Would be interested if anyone in the industry has a view on this. Surely we are an awfully long way short of the point where supply of housing outstrips demand, to the point where prices are depressed?

Prices are a consequence of supply and demand and confidence in the future. If people think prices might fall they will delay buying. If enough do that then demand falls and prices do fall to match the concern....

[Cero ceto]

House prices in the UK are driven by prices in London as prices ripple outwards. Prices in London are over inflated by foreign investors who do not live in the UK or ever intend too, but are purchasing property buy the bucket fall and in many cases leaving empty for a few years prior to selling on again. The government needs to stop wealthy people from overseas purchasing property in the UK, this alone will slow down the market! To own a property in the UK you should have to be a UK CITIZEN!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by SSIIJAR

House prices in the UK are driven by prices in London as prices ripple outwards. Prices in London are over inflated by foreign investors who do not live in the UK or ever intend too, but are purchasing property buy the bucket fall and in many cases leaving empty for a few years prior to selling on again. The government needs to stop wealthy people from overseas purchasing property in the UK, this alone will slow down the market! To own a property in the UK you should have to be a UK CITIZEN!

Brilliant hypocrisy there. Are all the UK citizens with holiday homes across the world going to be forced to sell their property as well? I'm sure Portugal, Cyprus etc would love a large percentage of their tourists to just stop visiting.

Or is it just one rule for us, and another for other nationalities? We're very good at our own sense of self importance.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Answering the OP's original question, the thing they have in common is that they're all so pissed off with something that'll they'll defy logic and vote for whatever the alternative is, even if it makes no real sense.

Corbyn voters so pissed off with the Tories they decided however illogically, that they were going to vote for the alternative.

Trump voters, middle Americans extremely pissed off with the decline in available working class jobs, they voted for a man that promised them a change. Completely illogically, a billionaire with no handle on reality, but he promised something, so they voted, with no good reason.

Brexit. Everyone pissed off about something. Immigration, I can't get an appointment at the doctors because Pavel moved in next door, or I don't like how much we pay to be in the EU, their bureaucracy and the laws dictated by them. Even when most experts said we'd be worse off, people still voted with their pissed off minds and not their logical ones.

That's what democracy is for though. If you're pissed off about something , use your vote, it doesn't have to make sense, that's not how democracy works.

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by mcoops

Would be interested if anyone in the industry has a view on this. Surely we are an awfully long way short of the point where supply of housing outstrips demand, to the point where prices are depressed?

I used to work in the housing industry - a site manager/foreman, part owner of the company, and then when the company was sold I started up myself.
The biggest problem with housing has been the time it takes to get planning done.
Even small sites can take years through the planning systems. Larger ones, a decade is not unheard of.

[225]

Originally Posted by Alex440

Answering the OP's original question, the thing they have in common is that they're all so pissed off with something that'll they'll defy logic and vote for whatever the alternative is, even if it makes no real sense.

Corbyn voters so pissed off with the Tories they decided however illogically, that they were going to vote for the alternative.

Trump voters, middle Americans extremely pissed off with the decline in available working class jobs, they voted for a man that promised them a change. Completely illogically, a billionaire with no handle on reality, but he promised something, so they voted, with no good reason.

Brexit. Everyone pissed off about something. Immigration, I can't get an appointment at the doctors because Pavel moved in next door, or I don't like how much we pay to be in the EU, their bureaucracy and the laws dictated by them. Even when most experts said we'd be worse off, people still voted with their pissed off minds and not their logical ones.

That's what democracy is for though. If you're pissed off about something , use your vote, it doesn't have to make sense, that's not how democracy works.

Very good points and spot on I'd say.

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Alex440

Answering the OP's original question, the thing they have in common is that they're all so pissed off with something that'll they'll defy logic and vote for whatever the alternative is, even if it makes no real sense.

Corbyn voters so pissed off with the Tories they decided however illogically, that they were going to vote for the alternative.

Trump voters, middle Americans extremely pissed off with the decline in available working class jobs, they voted for a man that promised them a change. Completely illogically, a billionaire with no handle on reality, but he promised something, so they voted, with no good reason.

Brexit. Everyone pissed off about something. Immigration, I can't get an appointment at the doctors because Pavel moved in next door, or I don't like how much we pay to be in the EU, their bureaucracy and the laws dictated by them. Even when most experts said we'd be worse off, people still voted with their pissed off minds and not their logical ones.

That's what democracy is for though. If you're pissed off about something , use your vote, it doesn't have to make sense, that's not how democracy works.

I never thought I'd agree with you Sir...but this is absolutely spot on!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

I never thought I'd agree with you Sir...but this is absolutely spot on!

Bloody hell, I'd better re read what I put, it must be a mistake

[Cero ceto]

Well if you want house prices to drop so first time buyers can afford them, it's the most obvious way (stop overseas buyers). The problem is any Govt in the U.K. doesn't look after the UK tax payer first. Countries like Cyprus and Spain does not have an over inflated market like we do here,

[Cero ceto]

Well if you want house prices to drop so first time buyers can afford them, it's the most obvious way (stop overseas buyers). The problem is any Govt in the U.K. doesn't look after the UK tax payer first. Countries like Cyprus and Spain does not have an over inflated market like we do here. Some countries already apply this rule and it seems to work very well for them.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by SSIIJAR

Well if you want house prices to drop so first time buyers can afford them, it's the most obvious way (stop overseas buyers). The problem is any Govt in the U.K. doesn't look after the UK tax payer first. Countries like Cyprus and Spain does not have an over inflated market like we do here,

What? You don't think that popular tourist areas in Cyprus and Spain, or anywhere else in Europe, have priced out the locals just like here?

Sure they can move from Marbella etc to cheaper places in Spain, but you can in the UK too. Move to Hull if you don't like high prices.

Sod it, let's build a wall, keep out all those rich people ruining our country.