Whats going on with the new ECU rules at BMW?

yahtzee · 05-22-2008, 08:50 AM

Left the turbo world about 3 months ago and bought an M. Sitting my dealership today and one of the SA's comes to me and says, "man, I bet you are glad you sold your car." I asked him what this was all about. Said that BMW is blackflagging cars with aftermarket tunes and not covering the warranty on them. Is it that cut and dry? What if you removed the tune prior to selling the car? What happens when that person brings in the car for service?

lm1z · 05-22-2008, 09:02 AM

you're fine. don't worry about it. if the car is sold it's not your liability anymore.

and yes, that's pretty much what's happening with BMW and our cars at this time. it's a big deal, however, the process is much more forgiving than some people are portraying it to be.

yahtzee · 05-22-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lm1z

you're fine. don't worry about it. if the car is sold it's not your liability anymore.

and yes, that's pretty much what's happening with BMW and our cars at this time. it's a big deal, however, the process is much more forgiving than some people are portraying it to be.

But the guy that bought it will have to deal with it?

5soko · 05-22-2008, 09:11 AM

there is no NEW bmw rules.
if something breaks on your car and BMW finds that the car was altered your warranty for that part can be and will be voided. this was always the case.

when making dealership visits, and you do have some kind of tune, aftermarket parts, remove them all and return the car to stock. then go in for the dealer visit. or anytime you visit the dealer make sure to bring your car to stock condition.

the new v29.2 program for the old ECU is a more advanced way to monitor the trims of the car's engine, which will also narrow down what a TUNE can do without being pikced up from bmw that the engine isnt running normal.

the new ECU DME v81 does about the same thing with even more monitors and on looking.

these news programs and DME's dont keep the Tunes from working at least for the throttle closure at some % we have been hearing about, but it keeps them from being hidden by bmw and passing there set standards for the car at which these new program and ECU looks at more closely.

"It is going to log any and all boost and fuel target data that is out of acceptable margins set by BMW. That might be brought up to the customer out of hand or nothing will be said unless something breaks on the car and then they will pull the FASTA data file off the ISIS computer and say no dice to warranty repair.
Jeff
Eurobahn"

lm1z · 06-11-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahtzee

But the guy that bought it will have to deal with it?

buy a full-coverage warranty when you purchase a used car and you're fine. used cars are more proned to problems. once the dealership purchases your vehicle it's their liability to fix the problem not yours. they can't come to you down the road with a problem on the car after the deal is done. they inspect the car before they purchase it.

CarveOut · 06-11-2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lm1z

you're fine. don't worry about it. if the car is sold it's not your liability anymore.

Yeah right!

If I bought a car from you without you telling me it was tuned you can bet I'd make it your problem.

addy85 · 06-11-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarveOut

Yeah right!

If I bought a car from you without you telling me it was tuned you can bet I'd make it your problem.

Don't buy a Preowned then

slubu · 06-11-2008, 12:06 PM

Caveat emptor

CarveOut · 06-11-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by addy85

Don't buy a Preowned then

Well, I wouldn't buy it from some punk kid with a 'Go Fast' tattoo...

CarveOut · 06-11-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slubu

Caveat emptor

Won't help with bogus.

addy85 · 06-11-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarveOut

Well, I wouldn't buy it from some punk kid with a 'Go Fast' tattoo...

okay????????

Malek@MRF · 06-11-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarveOut

Yeah right!

If I bought a car from you without you telling me it was tuned you can bet I'd make it your problem.

No... You can't.

If you are so high strung on it, don't buy a pre-owned or used car.

slubu · 06-11-2008, 03:54 PM

You are under no obligation to disclose your car had a tune. If you are asked the question, you cannot lie - that is a misrepresentation.

CarveOut · 06-12-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slubu

You are under no obligation to disclose your car had a tune. If you are asked the question, you cannot lie - that is a misrepresentation.

Well, yes and no, and of course laws are different around the world. If you as a seller don't release information that obviously has significant impact on the value of the car this could be interpreted as willful deception. When you remove the tune before selling the car you do this for a reason don't you? Try to explain this to a judge...

lm1z · 06-12-2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarveOut

Well, yes and no, and of course laws are different around the world. If you as a seller don't release information that obviously has significant impact on the value of the car this could be interpreted as willful deception. When you remove the tune before selling the car you do this for a reason don't you? Try to explain this to a judge...

A. Then don't buy a pre-owned TURBO car in which the target market starts well under age 30. In fact, don't buy a used turbo car in general if you are that concerned.

B. Dealerships screw people all the time, man. If there is no concrete evidence that the car was faulty upon purchase there is NOTHING the buyer can do. The dealership has more efficient ways to use their time than to track down the previous owner of a used car. It's all about time and money. Once again, once the car is purchased by the dealer, it's their problem and not yours.

Buy a full-coverage warranty. The end.

No hard feelings at all. I'm just stating the obvious. Not many things in this world are fair. Cars aren't exactly the best investment

HennarotM3 · 06-12-2008, 07:54 AM

The truth is probably somewhere in between. If you sell a used car "as is" or "with all faults," you're effectively disclaiming all implied warranties unless you live in a state that limits such disclaimers.

A buyer who later discovered an aggressive tune could argue for rescission or excuse by nondisclosure, but nondisclosure requires affirmative fraud that actually induced the purchase in most states. In other words, the buyer would have to prove that (s)he would not have bought the car, or would have demanded a lower price, had (s)he known about the tune. The materiality element is very tough to prove, though, if the buyer never even asked about the tune prior to the purchase.

So, you can't lie. You can disclaim any implied warranties. You can't withhold information if you have a specific reason to know it's material to a particular buyer's purchasing decision.

Carry on.

CarveOut · 06-12-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HennarotM3

The truth is probably somewhere in between. If you sell a used car "as is" or "with all faults," you're effectively disclaiming all implied warranties unless you live in a state that limits such disclaimers.

A buyer who later discovered an aggressive tune could argue for rescission or excuse by nondisclosure, but nondisclosure requires affirmative fraud that actually induced the purchase in most states. In other words, the buyer would have to prove that (s)he would not have bought the car, or would have demanded a lower price, had (s)he known about the tune. The materiality element is very tough to prove, though, if the buyer never even asked about the tune prior to the purchase.

So, you can't lie. You can disclaim any implied warranties. You can't withhold information if you have a specific reason to know it's material to a particular buyer's purchasing decision.

Carry on.

Agreed, just one thing. Assuming a tuned car is 10-15% worth less, I call that material. Nothing to proof.

HennarotM3 · 06-12-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarveOut

Agreed, just one thing. Assuming a tuned car is 10-15% worth less, I call that material. Nothing to proof.

Except it's a subjective test. In most states, it would have to be material to that particular buyer, not material in general. That's why I say it's tough to prove subjective materiality to a buyer who didn't even ask about it pre-purchase.

CarveOut · 06-12-2008, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HennarotM3

Except it's a subjective test. In most states, it would have to be material to that particular buyer, not material in general. That's why I say it's tough to prove subjective materiality to a buyer who didn't even ask about it pre-purchase.

Lawyers.

HennarotM3 · 06-12-2008, 09:47 AM

Not yet.

Bar/Bri Contracts

Sorry this is so

As a practical matter, it's always best to disclose everything. It's just not necessarily the end of the world for a seller who doesn't.

Numb3rs · 06-12-2008, 09:53 AM

Just don't buy a used 335i from California and the chances are you'll be alright.

05-22-2008, 08:50 AM	#1
yahtzee El Capitan 138 Rep 699 Posts Drives: fast Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Virginia iTrader: (1)	Whats going on with the new ECU rules at BMW? Left the turbo world about 3 months ago and bought an M. Sitting my dealership today and one of the SA's comes to me and says, "man, I bet you are glad you sold your car." I asked him what this was all about. Said that BMW is blackflagging cars with aftermarket tunes and not covering the warranty on them. Is it that cut and dry? What if you removed the tune prior to selling the car? What happens when that person brings in the car for service?
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05-22-2008, 09:02 AM	#2
lm1z Major 197 Rep 1,278 Posts Drives: 2017 GT350 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Frisco, TX iTrader: (22)	you're fine. don't worry about it. if the car is sold it's not your liability anymore. and yes, that's pretty much what's happening with BMW and our cars at this time. it's a big deal, however, the process is much more forgiving than some people are portraying it to be.
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05-22-2008, 09:11 AM	#4
5soko Brigadier General 333 Rep 4,632 Posts Drives: M5 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brooklyn, NY iTrader: (4)	there is no NEW bmw rules. if something breaks on your car and BMW finds that the car was altered your warranty for that part can be and will be voided. this was always the case. when making dealership visits, and you do have some kind of tune, aftermarket parts, remove them all and return the car to stock. then go in for the dealer visit. or anytime you visit the dealer make sure to bring your car to stock condition. the new v29.2 program for the old ECU is a more advanced way to monitor the trims of the car's engine, which will also narrow down what a TUNE can do without being pikced up from bmw that the engine isnt running normal. the new ECU DME v81 does about the same thing with even more monitors and on looking. these news programs and DME's dont keep the Tunes from working at least for the throttle closure at some % we have been hearing about, but it keeps them from being hidden by bmw and passing there set standards for the car at which these new program and ECU looks at more closely. "It is going to log any and all boost and fuel target data that is out of acceptable margins set by BMW. That might be brought up to the customer out of hand or nothing will be said unless something breaks on the car and then they will pull the FASTA data file off the ISIS computer and say no dice to warranty repair. Jeff Eurobahn"
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06-11-2008, 12:06 PM	#8
slubu Never Go Full Retard 182 Rep 1,851 Posts Drives: White Lightning Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Agrestic iTrader: (2)	Caveat emptor __________________ 2008 335i
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06-11-2008, 03:54 PM	#13
slubu Never Go Full Retard 182 Rep 1,851 Posts Drives: White Lightning Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Agrestic iTrader: (2)	You are under no obligation to disclose your car had a tune. If you are asked the question, you cannot lie - that is a misrepresentation. __________________ 2008 335i
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06-12-2008, 07:54 AM	#16
HennarotM3 Lieutenant 11 Rep 404 Posts Drives: e30 M3, e90 M3 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sammamish, WA iTrader: (0)	The truth is probably somewhere in between. If you sell a used car "as is" or "with all faults," you're effectively disclaiming all implied warranties unless you live in a state that limits such disclaimers. A buyer who later discovered an aggressive tune could argue for rescission or excuse by nondisclosure, but nondisclosure requires affirmative fraud that actually induced the purchase in most states. In other words, the buyer would have to prove that (s)he would not have bought the car, or would have demanded a lower price, had (s)he known about the tune. The materiality element is very tough to prove, though, if the buyer never even asked about the tune prior to the purchase. So, you can't lie. You can disclaim any implied warranties. You can't withhold information if you have a specific reason to know it's material to a particular buyer's purchasing decision. Carry on. __________________ e30 M3 \| e90 M3 \| e60 M5 (retired) \| e30 325is (retired) \| e36 M3/4 (retired) \| e90 335i (retired) \| '87 Buick Grand National (retired)
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06-12-2008, 09:47 AM	#20
HennarotM3 Lieutenant 11 Rep 404 Posts Drives: e30 M3, e90 M3 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sammamish, WA iTrader: (0)	Not yet. Bar/Bri Contracts Sorry this is so As a practical matter, it's always best to disclose everything. It's just not necessarily the end of the world for a seller who doesn't. __________________ e30 M3 \| e90 M3 \| e60 M5 (retired) \| e30 325is (retired) \| e36 M3/4 (retired) \| e90 335i (retired) \| '87 Buick Grand National (retired)
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06-12-2008, 09:53 AM	#21
Numb3rs Banned 13 Rep 610 Posts Drives: Looking Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Terra Ferma iTrader: (0)	Just don't buy a used 335i from California and the chances are you'll be alright.
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