[JaredG_F30]

First off forgive me if I've missed the thread with this in-depth discussion, but the search function pulled up just a few threads pertaining to methanol injection which were pretty old and most discussions were focused on the BMS WMI solution with JB4 integration. I'd like to talk about standalone WMI kits + tuning via BEF, for me that would be BM3. So I'll start off with a few questions (if there is a thread for this already please link it in your comment).

Would the Snow Performance Stage 3 WMI kit be an all in solution for me as I'm FBO and have the FTP charge pipe with the bung for the meth nozzle? Is stage 1 or 2 sufficient? Is stage 4 overkill?

https://www.snowperformance.net/prod...no-320-brd.htm

Is spraying into the charge pipe adequate or would I need a direct port meth injection spacer?

http://www.fuel-it.com/direct-port-m...-n55-f-series/

Would I need an upgraded, stage 2 or stage 3, LPFP?

http://www.fuel-it.com/f-series-n55-...-lpfp-upgrade/

Other than a custom tune, what else would I need?

Thanks!!

[Eldaes]

sub'd as I'd like to know more information as well. I just got rid of my JB4 and went BM3 only.

I've heard good things about Torqbyte on some forums and facebook groups, but I haven't heard anything much beside that

[gx5_027]

There might be some useful info for you here.
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...highlight=meth

Things got pretty in depth.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

First off forgive me if I've missed the thread with this in-depth discussion, but the search function pulled up just a few threads pertaining to methanol injection which were pretty old and most discussions were focused on the BMS WMI solution with JB4 integration. I'd like to talk about standalone WMI kits + tuning via BEF, for me that would be BM3. So I'll start off with a few questions (if there is a thread for this already please link it in your comment).

Would the Snow Performance Stage 3 WMI kit be an all in solution for me as I'm FBO and have the FTP charge pipe with the bung for the meth nozzle? Is stage 1 or 2 sufficient? Is stage 4 overkill?

https://www.snowperformance.net/prod...no-320-brd.htm

Is spraying into the charge pipe adequate or would I need a direct port meth injection spacer?

http://www.fuel-it.com/direct-port-m...-n55-f-series/

Would I need an upgraded, stage 2 or stage 3, LPFP?

http://www.fuel-it.com/f-series-n55-...-lpfp-upgrade/

Other than a custom tune, what else would I need?

Thanks!!

First off, what are you wanting to accomplish with the kit? While I haven't used it with a JB4, ive installed a ton of these kits on various vehicles, and most of them these days are just fine in stand alone form with their own controllers.

Is this to cool the air charge, provide more octane, provide more fuel, all the above?

[JaredG_F30]

Originally Posted by f32_027

There might be some useful info for you here.
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...highlight=meth

Things got pretty in depth.

Thanks for linking that thread. I did read the whole thread including the debate regarding Jb4, which was interesting to say the least. I guess what I was asking for is if there is a complete OTS kit, including a controller that will work well with BM3. If not maybe we can use this thread to build one and start with the Torqbyte or Twisted Tuning controller. It looks like at the very least we would need a tank, pump, solenoid, and nozzle.

[JaredG_F30]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

First off, what are you wanting to accomplish with the kit? While I haven't used it with a JB4, ive installed a ton of these kits on various vehicles, and most of them these days are just fine in stand alone form with their own controllers.

Is this to cool the air charge, provide more octane, provide more fuel, all the above?

The goal is to safely increase boost and advance timing. From what I've read, the added cooling effect, octane boost and fuel from meth will allow for that. I'm also interested in cooling IATs at my current boost levels during hot summer months.

So in your experience, the standalone controllers seem to work well? How does it integrate, signal wise, with the vehicle? Do they tap into the DME somehow or do they have their own sensor or sensors the control meth flow?

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

The goal is to safely increase boost and advance timing. From what I've read, the added cooling effect, octane boost and fuel from meth will allow for that. I'm also interested in cooling IATs at my current boost levels during hot summer months.

So in your experience, the standalone controllers seem to work well? How does it integrate, signal wise, with the vehicle? Do they tap into the DME somehow or do they have their own sensor or sensors the control meth flow?

Any kit will do that, the precaution you have to take is if you increase timing to where it is unsafe without the methanol, and something on the kit fails, you will nuke your engine pretty quickly. I would personally never install it as a "poor mans fuel system", or a "poor mans race fuel", however most vehicles ive installed it on saw a solid 30-40 hp gain from the cooling effect and octane on an otherwise stock tune. If your IATs are very high, such as in the case of running more boost, the gains will be even higher.

Generally the kits are set with either a boost activated signal, or a MAF activated signal, either of which works depending on your goal. The nice thing about the MAF controllers is you can typically slope the methanol injection to rise with more airflow so it doesn't spike too rich down low, or run leaner than you want up top. However some just prefer the keep it simple stupid method of setting a boost amount where it comes on and not having to do anything as its super simple, always works, and tends to be very consistent. The MAF controllers are best dialed in with a wideband air fuel meter connected to see which amount does what, and where it benefits, but ideally you would want both kits on a dyno, although ive installed at least half without either and had no issue, it just requires driving and testing.

As far as install, its 4 wires... power, ground, pump output and MAF trigger / Hobbs switch trigger. Most of the install time comes from either figuring out where to mount the meth tank, where to tap the line in (unless you have a charge pipe setup already), or if you do them how I like to, tap the factory windshield washer tank for methanol so when youre low, the factory "low washer fluid" light comes on. Methanol is basically cold climate washer fluid anyway, so it works fine for windshields, and as long as the washer fluid youre buying is 50/50 mix of water/meth and doesn't have any added detergents, it can be used as methanol for your engine as well, although id personally advise just buying automotive fuel grade methanol from a reputable dealer, or summit racing has it for cheap with free shipping over $100.

[JaredG_F30]

Thanks fenixsaint that is very useful information. I'm not trying to substitute meth as poor man's race fuel. A lot of my interest is simply for educational and hobbyist purposes. I don't really have any power goals to hit and actually love the way my car performs simply with FBO (my FTP charge pipe has the nozzle bung for spraying meth) and Stage 2 BM3 tune.

I definitely like the idea of a MAF/MAP activated signal for progressive control. So based on your information, I think the Snow Performance Stage 2 would be sufficient which has this capability. Have you installed SP WMI kits before? If so how was your experience? If not what brand do you prefer to work with and why?

Thanks again for the input.

Originally Posted by FenixMike

Any kit will do that, the precaution you have to take is if you increase timing to where it is unsafe without the methanol, and something on the kit fails, you will nuke your engine pretty quickly. I would personally never install it as a "poor mans fuel system", or a "poor mans race fuel", however most vehicles ive installed it on saw a solid 30-40 hp gain from the cooling effect and octane on an otherwise stock tune. If your IATs are very high, such as in the case of running more boost, the gains will be even higher.

Generally the kits are set with either a boost activated signal, or a MAF activated signal, either of which works depending on your goal. The nice thing about the MAF controllers is you can typically slope the methanol injection to rise with more airflow so it doesn't spike too rich down low, or run leaner than you want up top. However some just prefer the keep it simple stupid method of setting a boost amount where it comes on and not having to do anything as its super simple, always works, and tends to be very consistent. The MAF controllers are best dialed in with a wideband air fuel meter connected to see which amount does what, and where it benefits, but ideally you would want both kits on a dyno, although ive installed at least half without either and had no issue, it just requires driving and testing.

As far as install, its 4 wires... power, ground, pump output and MAF trigger / Hobbs switch trigger. Most of the install time comes from either figuring out where to mount the meth tank, where to tap the line in (unless you have a charge pipe setup already), or if you do them how I like to, tap the factory windshield washer tank for methanol so when youre low, the factory "low washer fluid" light comes on. Methanol is basically cold climate washer fluid anyway, so it works fine for windshields, and as long as the washer fluid youre buying is 50/50 mix of water/meth and doesn't have any added detergents, it can be used as methanol for your engine as well, although id personally advise just buying automotive fuel grade methanol from a reputable dealer, or summit racing has it for cheap with free shipping over $100.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

Any kit will do that, the precaution you have to take is if you increase timing to where it is unsafe without the methanol, and something on the kit fails, you will nuke your engine pretty quickly. I would personally never install it as a "poor mans fuel system", or a "poor mans race fuel", however most vehicles ive installed it on saw a solid 30-40 hp gain from the cooling effect and octane on an otherwise stock tune. If your IATs are very high, such as in the case of running more boost, the gains will be even higher.

Generally the kits are set with either a boost activated signal, or a MAF activated signal, either of which works depending on your goal. The nice thing about the MAF controllers is you can typically slope the methanol injection to rise with more airflow so it doesn't spike too rich down low, or run leaner than you want up top. However some just prefer the keep it simple stupid method of setting a boost amount where it comes on and not having to do anything as its super simple, always works, and tends to be very consistent. The MAF controllers are best dialed in with a wideband air fuel meter connected to see which amount does what, and where it benefits, but ideally you would want both kits on a dyno, although ive installed at least half without either and had no issue, it just requires driving and testing.

As far as install, its 4 wires... power, ground, pump output and MAF trigger / Hobbs switch trigger. Most of the install time comes from either figuring out where to mount the meth tank, where to tap the line in (unless you have a charge pipe setup already), or if you do them how I like to, tap the factory windshield washer tank for methanol so when youre low, the factory "low washer fluid" light comes on. Methanol is basically cold climate washer fluid anyway, so it works fine for windshields, and as long as the washer fluid youre buying is 50/50 mix of water/meth and doesn't have any added detergents, it can be used as methanol for your engine as well, although id personally advise just buying automotive fuel grade methanol from a reputable dealer, or summit racing has it for cheap with free shipping over $100.

Great post! The high lighted part is exactly why I wont go with meth and highly recommend E85 or Racefuel.Meth Pump failure+ advanced timing means formula for motor failure. Syonara N55 engine!
I took my AEM meth kit off my racecar and will be selling it. Meth is old school tech but many still use and swear by it. Not meeeeee!

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

Thanks fenixsaint that is very useful information. I'm not trying to substitute meth as poor man's race fuel. A lot of my interest is simply for educational and hobbyist purposes. I don't really have any power goals to hit and actually love the way my car performs simply with FBO (my FTP charge pipe has the nozzle bung for spraying meth) and Stage 2 BM3 tune.

I definitely like the idea of a MAF/MAP activated signal for progressive control. So based on your information, I think the Snow Performance Stage 2 would be sufficient which has this capability. Have you installed SP WMI kits before? If so how was your experience? If not what brand do you prefer to work with and why?

Thanks again for the input.

Why not just tune your car for E85 and also have a racefuel map? Its safer and will make the same and or more power? I have had 2 tuners tell me to take the kit off because they did not like tuning with it. FenixMike's post is the only one I have found that has broke this truth down that I have seen.

[JaredG_F30]

Going the E85 route is definitely under consideration. I know that to go that route I would need a stage 2 fuel pump and access to E85, maybe even PI. I need to do more research on it.

So to stay on the safe side maybe boost can be raised by 2-3PSI, but keep the timing tables as they meth to keep IATs down and knock resistance up. In case of pump failure, the DME would sense knock, retard timing and lower boost.

So I just read the whole installation instruction from SP on the Stage 2 kit. It seems pretty straightforward. (http://snowperformance.net/v/Part%20212%20.pdf) Does anyone know what type of signal comes from the MAP sensor? The SP instructions say to adjust dip switches on the controller based on low HZ, high HZ or 0-5V type sensor signals.

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Great post! The high lighted part is exactly why I wont go with meth and highly recommend E85 or Racefuel.Meth Pump failure+ advanced timing means formula for motor failure. Syonara N55 engine!
I took my AEM meth kit off my racecar and will be selling it. Meth is old school tech but many still use and swear by it. Not meeeeee!

Why not just tune your car for E85 and also have a racefuel map? Its safer and will make the same and or more power? I have had 2 tuners tell me to take the kit off because they did not like tuning with it. FenixMike's post is the only one I have found that has broke this truth down that I have seen.

[RollingLower42]

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

First off forgive me if I've missed the thread with this in-depth discussion, but the search function pulled up just a few threads pertaining to methanol injection which were pretty old and most discussions were focused on the BMS WMI solution with JB4 integration. I'd like to talk about standalone WMI kits + tuning via BEF, for me that would be BM3. So I'll start off with a few questions (if there is a thread for this already please link it in your comment).

Would the Snow Performance Stage 3 WMI kit be an all in solution for me as I'm FBO and have the FTP charge pipe with the bung for the meth nozzle? Is stage 1 or 2 sufficient? Is stage 4 overkill?

https://www.snowperformance.net/prod...no-320-brd.htm

Is spraying into the charge pipe adequate or would I need a direct port meth injection spacer?

http://www.fuel-it.com/direct-port-m...-n55-f-series/

Would I need an upgraded, stage 2 or stage 3, LPFP?

http://www.fuel-it.com/f-series-n55-...-lpfp-upgrade/

Other than a custom tune, what else would I need?

Thanks!!

JB4 >

FTW



APPROVED

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

Thanks fenixsaint that is very useful information. I'm not trying to substitute meth as poor man's race fuel. A lot of my interest is simply for educational and hobbyist purposes. I don't really have any power goals to hit and actually love the way my car performs simply with FBO (my FTP charge pipe has the nozzle bung for spraying meth) and Stage 2 BM3 tune.

I definitely like the idea of a MAF/MAP activated signal for progressive control. So based on your information, I think the Snow Performance Stage 2 would be sufficient which has this capability. Have you installed SP WMI kits before? If so how was your experience? If not what brand do you prefer to work with and why?

Thanks again for the input.

Ive installed a ton of snow performance kits, and after the last one I did on my personal supercharged tundra, I wont use their products anymore. Between the customer service, clueless technicians / tech support, and worthless attempt at handling their failed components that nearly hydrolocked the engine in my truck, I will personally be using other brands such as AEM etc the next time around. The components are more or less the same on them all with the main difference between them being the computer modules, which the snow performance is also the most dated. Had I known about the newer kits, I would have gone with one of the others, but ive just been using the Snow stuff so long that I didn't bother researching the newer kits.

Make sure with the kit you buy any necessary accessories. Depending where you install the meth nozzle, if it sees vacuum or boost, it will need a solenoid kit to prevent boost/vacuum from feeding back into the kit, or drawing out methanol. The new Snow Performance stainless line kits come with an in line filter that is supposed to prevent that, and the one on my kit failed after 2 weeks, effectively sucking 1.5 gallons of methanol into my supercharger. The solenoid kit is the only 100% guaranteed method, which is what I upgraded to, and used in the past, however their tech told me this new part would withstand vacuum and boost. Lesson learned!

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Great post! The high lighted part is exactly why I wont go with meth and highly recommend E85 or Racefuel.Meth Pump failure+ advanced timing means formula for motor failure. Syonara N55 engine!
I took my AEM meth kit off my racecar and will be selling it. Meth is old school tech but many still use and swear by it. Not meeeeee!

Why not just tune your car for E85 and also have a racefuel map? Its safer and will make the same and or more power? I have had 2 tuners tell me to take the kit off because they did not like tuning with it. FenixMike's post is the only one I have found that has broke this truth down that I have seen.

I still really like methanol kits as long as they are used SOLELY IN ADDITION to your setup, and not tuned for it as a replacement for other fuel source or octane. The downside about a direct injection engine is the limited fuel capacity of the injectors/pump when switching to the severely less efficient Ethanol blend, so while you WILL get an octane and cooling boost out of say an E20/E30 blend, it wont come close to the effects you will get from methanol. What my preference is, would be tune for the E20/E30 blend and make sure your car is safe with that setup, THEN add the methanol in as an added layer of protection, as well as a cooling charge. On warm days, it will make a significant difference... I really don't race anymore, and other than the spirited onramp run, just enjoy the car for what it is, so I likely wont do methanol, but on my Tundra I had it because on warm days, that truck really suffered performance wise, and running the methanol on it not only cooled the rotors in the supercharger, but made it feel like it was 20 degrees out at all times, even when heat soaked or when it was 90 degrees out.

[harkes]

I have been running my BMS WMI kit as a "poor mans fuel kit" adding 100hp over stock system for the better of 3 years and +20k km. The DME is really smart. My meth flow has failed a few times and while the JB4 fail safe has taken care of the boost the DME has never even given me a misfire but just retarded timing accordingly. Actually running out of volume is also "safe". I tried that two times with OTS flash, reason being HPFP crashing, both times resulting in misfires and injectors being shut down. You'd have to try really hard to kill this engine.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by harkes

I have been running my BMS WMI kit as a "poor mans fuel kit" adding 100hp over stock system for the better of 3 years and +20k km. The DME is really smart. My meth flow has failed a few times and while the JB4 fail safe has taken care of the boost the DME has never even given me a misfire but just retarded timing accordingly. Actually running out of volume is also "safe". I tried that two times with OTS flash, reason being HPFP crashing, both times resulting in misfires and injectors being shut down. You'd have to try really hard to kill this engine.

Still not good! Why take the chance.. My opinion. This means the motor detected knock for the timing to get pulled back in the first place, and that’s not good

[harkes]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Still not good! Why take the chance.. My opinion. This means the motor detected knock for the timing to get pulled back in the first place, and that’s not good

Even on stock map running 95RON (this is my car with all the mods) you have timing corrections. Modern engines constantly run on the edge of knock to improve efficiency. See here. http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5a912d18d10b4309072b8e3a

[JaredG_F30]

Hey thanks for the input on SP. I think you and I have the same goal here, to add additional protection and increased performance on hot days or for the track. I won't be tuning for meth but still, think I can see performance gains with the OTS Stage 2 tune by keeping IATs down and increasing octane. Also thanks for the reminder about the solenoid. I read about that in the install instructions. Having the solenoid allows for more freedom of mounting options since without it you could gravity feed the nozzle if the nozzle is below the tank (which it would be with the nozzle in the charge pipe and using the windshield wiper tank as the meth tank).

I'll look into the AEM kits.

Originally Posted by FenixMike

Ive installed a ton of snow performance kits, and after the last one I did on my personal supercharged tundra, I wont use their products anymore. Between the customer service, clueless technicians / tech support, and worthless attempt at handling their failed components that nearly hydrolocked the engine in my truck, I will personally be using other brands such as AEM etc the next time around. The components are more or less the same on them all with the main difference between them being the computer modules, which the snow performance is also the most dated. Had I known about the newer kits, I would have gone with one of the others, but ive just been using the Snow stuff so long that I didn't bother researching the newer kits.

Make sure with the kit you buy any necessary accessories. Depending where you install the meth nozzle, if it sees vacuum or boost, it will need a solenoid kit to prevent boost/vacuum from feeding back into the kit, or drawing out methanol. The new Snow Performance stainless line kits come with an in line filter that is supposed to prevent that, and the one on my kit failed after 2 weeks, effectively sucking 1.5 gallons of methanol into my supercharger. The solenoid kit is the only 100% guaranteed method, which is what I upgraded to, and used in the past, however their tech told me this new part would withstand vacuum and boost. Lesson learned!

[valve float]

from my experience
e20mixing or e30 map >>> WMI...

i would not go to the trouble of WMI without tuning for it and optimizing it...maintenance is ongoing, failsafes are iffy (no real DME integration aside from ?JB), only benefit at WOT...to my thinking WMI only makes sense if A) you have NO access to e85, B) you have good 93, C) you drive hard in high ambients D) have lots of extra time to monitor, troubleshoot, maintain and curse failing kit parts and E) you're good at remembering to pray when you spray

e85/pump mixes have their downsides (fetching, storing, calculating) but IME has been infinitely more reliable with better results...primarily due to the fact e30 maps make adjustment at all loads...this means effectively tuned for ~95oct...

if i were to go WMI, i'd be going with aquamist, AN/braided lines, multiple nozzles, stealth tank etc...no messing around...near $2K...vs a $99 OTS e30 map...

[JaredG_F30]

Thanks for the input. Once the summer corn starts rolling in I'm going to flash the E30 map, log and take it from there. I tied running a true E30 blend with 91 octane when I lived in LA and my fuel pump would crash at high RPM. The most I could run was E25. Now that I"m in North Carolina, with good 93 octane the E25 blend should run will on the E30 map. maybe meth while running E30 is overkill. Logs will tell.

Originally Posted by valve float

from my experience
e20mixing or e30 map >>> WMI...

i would not go to the trouble of WMI without tuning for it and optimizing it...maintenance is ongoing, failsafes are iffy (no real DME integration aside from ?JB), only benefit at WOT...to my thinking WMI only makes sense if A) you have NO access to e85, B) you have good 93, C) you drive hard in high ambients D) have lots of extra time to monitor, troubleshoot, maintain and curse failing kit parts and E) you're good at remembering to pray when you spray

e85/pump mixes have their downsides (fetching, storing, calculating) but IME has been infinitely more reliable with better results...primarily due to the fact e30 maps make adjustment at all loads...this means effectively tuned for ~95oct...

if i were to go WMI, i'd be going with aquamist, AN/braided lines, multiple nozzles, stealth tank etc...no messing around...near $2K...vs a $99 OTS e30 map...

[yoandry]

I will only do meth, if you going to upgrade ur turbo in order to help your hpfp, otherwise e85mix.

I was debating on meth or pi for my PS2 and I bought the meth kit this past Monday. And I will be also running my meth with e85mix, like e20 to reduce knocks.

[valve float]

Originally Posted by yoandry

I will only do meth, if you going to upgrade ur turbo in order to help your hpfp, otherwise e85mix.

I was debating on meth or pi for my PS2 and I bought the meth kit this past Monday. And I will be also running my meth with e85mix, like e20 to reduce knocks.

you''ve got it good with fuels...nice 93 pump with available e85; get stg2 lpfp upgrade...throw meth in there and you get close to maxing out ps2...

[FSociety]

JaredG_F30 kinda good u moved from ShitGasCali lol, now your ambient wont be as high everyday and you will still get that extra cooling from E85

Going to flash E30 Map as well this week, I will start at E20 since i know in cold-weather HPFP is stressed more when E20+ in the mix. #BM3FTW