25k miles track day car, what to worry about

[1Mbr]

Hi! I’m looking to buy a 1M, and there’s is a opportunity in a 25k miles car, most of them came from track days. It’s a good deal, car is FBO using coob and akrapovick exaust, but I’m a little worried about the intense tracking day use.
What are your feelings about??? What should I take care and look before buy the car? Thank you!

[nachob]

Originally Posted by 1Mbr

Hi! I'm looking to buy a 1M, and there's is a opportunity in a 25k miles car, most of them came from track days. It's a good deal, car is FBO using coob and akrapovick exaust, but I'm a little worried about the intense tracking day use.
What are your feelings about??? What should I take care and look before buy the car? Thank you!

The wastegates are weak point in the car as is carbon build up especially with track time. The diff can also be impacted as well as suspension. Replacing the turbos will set you back about $6k. The diff about $3500. Best get a PPI

[1Mbr]

Originally Posted by nachob

The wastegates are weak point in the car as is carbon build up especially with track time. The diff can also be impacted as well as suspension. Replacing the turbos will set you back about $6k. The diff about $3500. Best get a PPI

Thanks! What’s PPI???

[nachob]

Originally Posted by 1Mbr

Thanks! What's PPI???

Pre Purchase Inspection.

[M3 Adjuster]

I agree.. PPI.. and perhaps a walnut blast on the intake ..

[1Mbr]

Thanks, car already has a aftermarket LSD! Must to worry about pistons and pistons rings??? Rods aware easier to take a look.....

[1&done]

Originally Posted by 1Mbr

Thanks, car already has a aftermarket LSD! Must to worry about pistons and pistons rings??? Rods aware easier to take a look.....

Motor is pretty stout, I would ask about a black lab oil analyst. Was an oil pan baffle installed? What kind of track time? HPDE hero stuff?! Btw that cost on turbo replacement seems high, Indy shop or DIY for sure, and that's IF they need replacement, they are likely fine, just listen to them. Bushings might need a look at, can always upgrade if need be. Do the PPI and look under the diaper (plastic under belly) Hopefully there are frequent and documented maintenance records.

[NorthernDancer]

You MUST find someone else in your area that knows BMW's VERY well and can give you good advice. An independant BMW garage would be best, otherwise try the BMW dealer. The guy selling the car should be able to help you out. These cars are great if looked after but can cost you a LOT OF MONEY if not. Be careful and don't rush the purchase.

[BimmerAg]

Talk to the owner about the car's service history. Most track guys are especially diligent about maintenance: oil changes after every track day, frequent brake fluid flushes, regular coolant flushes, etc. If the car was well maintained, I don't think the track use is as much of a worry.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

Talk to the owner about the car's service history. Most track guys are especially diligent about maintenance: oil changes after every track day, frequent brake fluid flushes, regular coolant flushes, etc. If the car was well maintained, I don't think the track use is as much of a worry.

I almost agree. Most guys are very diligent but I also have seen many here and especially on the M3 forum that not only don't believe in proper break-in, they actually believe it is better to thrash a car when new. Most of this was based on an article from a motorcycle engine builder a few years back that said that piston and and cylinder sleeve have the most friction when newly built so you thrash the car to get the pistons and liners to seat.

This was like telling a drug addict that crack will make you live longer. So many jumped on board and figured this one motorcycle guy knew more than the German guys that built these motors.

Never mind that all the other components from clutch, differential, brakes, gearbox also benefit from break in. Even if there was a slight benefit from seating the piston, that is not the only component in the motor. The main bearings, intermediate shaft bearings, etc also need good seating, expansion and contraction cycles.

Anyway, back to the point. There are more and more that are not careful than you think. There are even BMW mechanics...not engineers but mechanics that push this because the cars are on warranty and because they say stuff like I abused my e36 and it went 100K miles. However the cars are built differently from the F8X forward. Blocks used to be cast iron like the E46 M3 and have cast iron sleeves like the motorcycle wrote about but new BMWs don't! They have aluminum blocks with no sleeves. A think layer of Material is welded onto the aluminum to make a cylinder liner. So it means squat if some biker says that aluminum and cast iron sleeves seat better when thrashed because the F series on doesn't use them. I believe the 1M still uses the old iron sleeve, but I haven't actually looked it up.

Also, heat is what affects wastegates and while a bigger intercooler can help a little bit, there is little anyone can do to prevent them from deteriorating. Dinan sells rebuilt turbos for about $2080 a pair plus $400 gasket kit. You add shipping and you are looking at about $2500 in parts alone. Labor is estimated at 15 hours. Using $125 per hour labor rate, which I believe is lower than my dealer, you are talking $1875, So you could probably get it done for about $4400 if you used Dinan in NorCal or found an independent but the dealer will set you back about $5500, maybe even $6000 because you will also want to replace the turbo oil lines because if they leak later it is very expensive to replace them.

If the car is a good deal, then it still might make sense but the OP didn't say how good the deal was.

That's my 2 cents for the OP because he asked our opinions on this.

[mattm]

Just to do a slight thread hijack:

Over the weekend my 1M Coupe generated two check engine light messages. When I shut the car off and restart it, the CEL went away. I did a code read and it appears to be similar to the problem I had almost two years ago with the intake charge pipe failure.

From the service writer:
Morning Matt, the turbo waste gates are stuck open, the turbo's need to be replaced, luckily it's covered under the emissions warranty!!!!! Car will be here for about a week I would guess, on a side note did you see all the maintenance it was calling for?

Quotes on the maint (I can do the air filter and cabin filter, got a coupon for an oil change from them too):
Don't have intake off, looking at $900 in labor plus intake gasket(s) air filter $75, micro filter $145, oil $95, plugs $500, diff fluid $105, man.trans.fluid change $245, I can do 15% off everything but the oil change.

Should they find carbon build up is the $900 (less 15%=$765) a good price?
$500 for plugs seems high, too. Is it DIY easy or worth paying someone else if it's a pain in the butt? Damn, Amazon has the plugs for $9.08.

[CarJunkie]

Originally Posted by mattm

Just to do a slight thread hijack:

Over the weekend my 1M Coupe generated two check engine light messages. When I shut the car off and restart it, the CEL went away. I did a code read and it appears to be similar to the problem I had almost two years ago with the intake charge pipe failure.

From the service writer:
Morning Matt, the turbo waste gates are stuck open, the turbo's need to be replaced, luckily it's covered under the emissions warranty!!!!! Car will be here for about a week I would guess, on a side note did you see all the maintenance it was calling for?

Quotes on the maint (I can do the air filter and cabin filter, got a coupon for an oil change from them too):
Don't have intake off, looking at $900 in labor plus intake gasket(s) air filter $75, micro filter $145, oil $95, plugs $500, diff fluid $105, man.trans.fluid change $245, I can do 15% off everything but the oil change.

Should they find carbon build up is the $900 (less 15%=$765) a good price?
$500 for plugs seems high, too. Is it DIY easy or worth paying someone else if it's a pain in the butt? Damn, Amazon has the plugs for $9.08.

The most difficult part of changing the plugs is that you have to remove the cabin filter and cowl before you can remove the engine cover. I found a decent instructional vid on youtube for the first time, which helped. Now that I have done it a few times, it is easy. I have to do it to get to my catch can for inspection. Also make sure you have the correct spark plug socket. ECS has them. If you DIY, you could change the plugs AND COILS for less than $500.

My indy shop inspected the intake valves at about 40k miles and the carbon build-up was minor, so no walnut blast was needed. Walnut blast would have been about $600. (My dealer had quoted over $1k!) They did a cleaning job that involved injecting a BG valve cleaner product into the intake while the car was running which was less than $200.

[mattm]

Originally Posted by CarJunkie

The most difficult part of changing the plugs is that you have to remove the cabin filter and cowl before you can remove the engine cover. I found a decent instructional vid on youtube for the first time, which helped. Now that I have done it a few times, it is easy. I have to do it to get to my catch can for inspection. Also make sure you have the correct spark plug socket. ECS has them. If you DIY, you could change the plugs AND COILS for less than $500.

My indy shop inspected the intake valves at about 40k miles and the carbon build-up was minor, so no walnut blast was needed. Walnut blast would have been about $600. (My dealer had quoted over $1k!) They did a cleaning job that involved injecting a BG valve cleaner product into the intake while the car was running which was less than $200.

I think I saw that video last night. Total run time was under 6 minutes including removing the cabin filter holder and cowl. That really has me annoyed. Plugs on Amazon were under $10 each Rockauto has 'em for $6.09 BOSCH ZGR6STE2. Figure it is realistically a half hour to do, but I'd go along with an hour. It should be $200-$220 total.

I don't have a lift to do the trans and diff fluid. And I've never done a brake fluid flush. The few times I've tried to bleed brakes (ages ago), the pedal was squishy.

But I do feel they are banging me like a cheap drum. Oh and I have 69,000 miles.

I'm thinking of replying back to them, with the prices "I" will pay. If they say no, okay, do the turbos and I'll have the work done elsewhere.

[ayao]

Those prices look generally in line with any BMW dealership, which is to say that there is a significant markup compared to DIY.

1. The air and cabin filter prices are outrageous. DIY would cost you ~ $50, dealer wants $220.

2. Oil for $95 isn't actually horrible. 7 quarts of motor oil + filter can be in the vicinity of $70 (although you can cut this cost down dramatically with some conscientious shopping.)

3. Diff oil change for $105 is pretty good because the fluid is ~$50/500mL bottle and you need 2-3 bottles, IIRC. The diff change kit on ECS is $160.

4. Manual transmission fluid change for $245 is steep. The fluid is cheap although I don't particularly look forward to doing this - the space is a little tight.

5. Plugs for $500 is extortion. Plugs can be found for ~$75 (BMW OEM on eBay from actual BMW dealers - there is controversy over whether OEM is preferable to Bosch equivalent) and the actual work is not bad if you take your time and follow the DIY directions. The only special tool you would need is a thin-wall BMW spark plug socket (I bought mine at Burger Motorsports.) As CarJunkie pointed out, for that cost you can do the coils as well. In fact you could probably do the whole job twice for what the dealer wants.

6. You can pretty easily do one-man brake fluid flushes with a Motive pressure bleeder. Plenty of DIYs as well. This will also allow you to flush the clutch as well.

7. To get access to all of this stuff under the car all you really need is a jack, maybe a jackpad adapter (also at Burger MS) and 4 jackstands.

8. You didn't mention coolant but you can do a coolant flush pretty easily using Schwaben's coolant refill / air purge kit. I was going to have the dealer flush the coolant but then the cost was going to be the same as if I spent the money on the equipment, so that's what I ended up doing.

9. The walnut blast cost is in-line with what they are charging in NorCal. For some reason Southern CA folks get access to tons of shop who will perform the service for hundreds of dollars less. Such is life.

None of the above jobs are beyond the reach of anyone with pretty basic DIY skills. Seriously - I'm as big of a hack as they come. For what the dealer is charging you, you could buy all the equipment to do this work -and- the materials for 2-3 services. AND, you get to learn more about the car and perhaps feel somewhat smug along the way.

[CarJunkie]

Originally Posted by ayao

.... and perhaps feel somewhat smug along the way.

^^This, LOL.

[mattm]

Originally Posted by ayao

and perhaps feel somewhat smug along the way.

Originally Posted by CarJunkie

^^This, LOL.

Something I likely won't experience. LOL

[///BYU]

I've done the following on my 1M over the last few months - everything was pretty straightforward and I'm glad I did it myself.

• Engine oil and filter
• Manual transmission fluid
• Rear differential fluid
• Spark plugs and ignition coils
• Cabin air filter
• Replace and register battery

Let me know if you have any questions about any of the above. I bought a few tools I didn't have and read forum posts / watched YouTube videos and everything went smoothly. I've done oil changes since day one, but everything else on the list was a first for me.

And I'm doing the following soon:

• Walnut blast
• Brake pads and fluid (and brake rotors if needed)

[ayao]

Are you going to do walnut blast yourself? This one I’m reluctant to tackle myself ...

[///BYU]

Originally Posted by ayao

Are you going to do walnut blast yourself? This one I’m reluctant to tackle myself ...

Sent you a pm. I'm in process and will create a separate post when I'm done. I'm pretty competent when it comes to mechanical things, but this is one I might recommend leaving to a pro -- the main reason being if one of the many, many plastic parts you have to remove breaks, someone else can be on the hook to replace it. It feels like a lot of the clips and connections you need to remove snap on super easy but weren't designed with removal in mind. The risk of breaking something -- and the added time and expense to fix it correctly -- doesn't feel like it's worth it.

I think as long as I could visually confirm (a) the intakes are clean and (b) everything has been put back together correctly, I'd be happy to pay someone else to do it. Of course, pretty much the whole reason I decided to do it myself is because when I changed the spark plugs recently, I noticed that the lower cabin air filter housing had been broken by a previous tech -- either when I had my spark plugs replaced under warranty by a BMW dealer or when I had the water pump replaced by an independent BMW specialist. Since I don't know who did it (and it's been awhile anyway), I replaced the part myself for $118. I figured to prevent this in the future, it'd be best to do as much as I can myself. I think that's generally true, but getting access to the intake on this engine is not fun.

[ayao]

Originally Posted by ///BYU

Sent you a pm. I'm in process and will create a separate post when I'm done. I'm pretty competent when it comes to mechanical things, but this is one I might recommend leaving to a pro -- the main reason being if one of the many, many plastic parts you have to remove breaks, someone else can be on the hook to replace it. It feels like a lot of the clips and connections you need to remove snap on super easy but weren't designed with removal in mind. The risk of breaking something -- and the added time and expense to fix it correctly -- doesn't feel like it's worth it.

I think as long as I could visually confirm (a) the intakes are clean and (b) everything has been put back together correctly, I'd be happy to pay someone else to do it. Of course, pretty much the whole reason I decided to do it myself is because when I changed the spark plugs recently, I noticed that the lower cabin air filter housing had been broken by a previous tech -- either when I had my spark plugs replaced under warranty by a BMW dealer or when I had the water pump replaced by an independent BMW specialist. Since I don't know who did it (and it's been awhile anyway), I replaced the part myself for $118. I figured to prevent this in the future, it'd be best to do as much as I can myself. I think that's generally true, but getting access to the intake on this engine is not fun.

I can totally relate to this.

It seems like any time I remove a plastic trim piece or whatever, there is: 1) a "twang" / snapping sound followed very quickly by 2) the sound of plastic hitting the ground and bouncing into a dark corner of the garage.
Two of the best purchases I've made are a magnetic extendable pick up tool and one of those little pick up tools that have extendable prongs that can grab a small object you dropped into the engine bay (assuming you can even see it.)

Even competent mechanics will bungle up your car without ever saying anything. My local dealer mangled one of the plastic lift points of the car ("we think that was there before") and my local indy broke the headlight leveling sensor during installation of coilovers ("we think that was like that before").

[mattm]

I replied with what I thought was fair.

Dear B------,

To be honest I was taken aback by some of the pricing. The most glaring was the spark plugs. As I learned over the weekend a video showing how to do it, including removal of the cowl and cabin filter holder was under six minutes to get the first plug. The price of the plugs are about $22 through BMW but Rockauto and Amazon had them respectively for $6.08 and $9.06. I'll assume the cover panels are off to access the turbos so that shouldn't have an additional charge.

May I offer the following:
Plugs $130 parts and an hour labor.
Do the diff and trans at the quoted price.

Let me know what the brake fluid flush is.

Carbon blasting, if needed I'd do at $600.

I know this may not be palatable by I need to keep my finances in check.

The response. Yes, I'll go with it. (discount is 15% off).

Afternoon Matt,

The plugs I can do for $297 including tax
Can go forward with the diff and trans as I quoted $105 and $245 minus discount plus tax
Oil change isn’t due at this time
Brake fluid would be $160 plus tax minus discount
It’s not confirmed that it needs a carbon blast-to use boro scope to check they would be a labor charge, you want to drive it and see how it is since the turbo has been done?
If not I can do it for $700

[ayao]

So basically your SA is a robot...