BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > S55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > S55 issue even in M2 Competition

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-03-2018, 03:54 AM   #1
Winterstorm
Enlisted Member
Winterstorm's Avatar
63
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition (04/2019)
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

S55 issue even in M2 Competition

Good morning guys,

how do you think about this known issue ? As far as I heard, the M2C has the same issue. Nothing fixed seems to be fixed...

BMW F80 M3 & F82 M4 S55 engine crank hub spinning problem

BMW comment:
BMW saw this issue first time on an engine test bed long time before the first vehicle was delivered. The same issue is known from a 4 cyl engine - same parts/system. The real problem is not the hub (2) or the wheels (5). It´s the bolt (3), which holds the wheel and crank hub. The bolt dissolves because of vibrations coming from the vibration damper (1) in front of it - or from any other imbalanced source. If it dissolves, your chain wheel spins and timings adjusts. So why not just tighten the bolt, or make the hub and wheels from one piece? Because this system works like a fuse. This "fuse" protects your crankshaft against imbalanced parts and vibrations. If you fix the bolt (weld etc), it can't come loose and you risk damages to your crankshaft and bearings etc. The "solutions" some tuners offer are very dangerous, BMW constructed everything for a reason. Example? You can't (or its very difficult) set timings with a fixed wheel. We spoke honestly with the engineer, about solutions, whats possible. The reality is: there's no solution. You can fix the bolt but you open a range of new risks. You can install a one piece hub/wheel - and of this the engineer urgently advised against - you risk even more damages. JoeFromPA is right - there are over 40k vehicles and just round about 40 (BMW said this) known cases, most of them with only wrong timings. You even can't check the bolt, only thing you can do is change the bolt every year or every xxxxx miles/km. The bolt is tightened with 200 Nm and 2x 260 degrees

Last edited by Winterstorm; 05-03-2018 at 08:53 AM..
Appreciate 1
      05-03-2018, 04:09 AM   #2
Al1969
Lieutenant
Al1969's Avatar
530
Rep
489
Posts

Drives: M2
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Switzerland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterstorm View Post
Good morning guys,

how do you think about this known issue ? As far as I heard, the M2C has the same issue. Nothing fixed seems to be fixed...


BMW comment:
BMW saw this issue first time on an engine test bed long time before the first vehicle was delivered. The same issue is known from a 4 cyl engine - same parts/system. The real problem is not the hub (2) or the wheels (5). It´s the bolt (3), which holds the wheel and crank hub. The bolt dissolves because of vibrations coming from the vibration damper (1) in front of it - or from any other imbalanced source. If it dissolves, your chain wheel spins and timings adjusts. So why not just tighten the bolt, or make the hub and wheels from one piece? Because this system works like a fuse. This "fuse" protects your crankshaft against imbalanced parts and vibrations. If you fix the bolt (weld etc), it can't come loose and you risk damages to your crankshaft and bearings etc. The "solutions" some tuners offer are very dangerous, BMW constructed everything for a reason. Example? You can't (or its very difficult) set timings with a fixed wheel. We spoke honestly with the engineer, about solutions, whats possible. The reality is: there's no solution. You can fix the bolt but you open a range of new risks. You can install a one piece hub/wheel - and of this the engineer urgently advised against - you risk even more damages. JoeFromPA is right - there are over 40k vehicles and just round about 40 (BMW said this) known cases, most of them with only wrong timings. You even can't check the bolt, only thing you can do is change the bolt every year or every xxxxx miles/km. The bolt is tightened with 200 Nm and 2x 260 degrees
Sorry, did not understand anything, my bad english probably
Appreciate 1
Nkc1600.50
      05-03-2018, 06:59 AM   #3
M3 Adjuster
Banned
Albania
7905
Rep
11,785
Posts

Drives: 1M, X1 M Sport, E46 325ic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas, Tx

iTrader: (0)

The link was broken or bad for me.

The description of the 4 cylinder motor that BMW had too much harmonic vibration on and went to this type of crankshaft nut on sounds to mi like the S14.

The crank hub/bolt/harmonic balancer setup on the s14 did not have any issues even up to 8000 rpm ( stock limiter 7200)
Appreciate 0
      05-03-2018, 09:46 AM   #4
M3_WC
Brigadier General
1040
Rep
3,622
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

It is mainly a problem for cars dated pre 12/2015 and the majority were pushing big power. BMW implemented a new bedplate after 12/2015 and its seems to have fixed the issue. 99% of the failures fall on early built M3/M4. With that said, I been to many BMWCCA events and HPDE. Never met another M3/M4 owner that actually had the problem. Only known cases are what I have seen on the forums. Even then it is a fraction of a % of S55 powered cars. Heard of more N54 and N55 letting going due to tuning than S55.
Appreciate 2
Brandt51838.00
      05-03-2018, 11:39 AM   #5
Winterstorm
Enlisted Member
Winterstorm's Avatar
63
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition (04/2019)
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
It is mainly a problem for cars dated pre 12/2015 and the majority were pushing big power. BMW implemented a new bedplate after 12/2015 and its seems to have fixed the issue. 99% of the failures fall on early built M3/M4. With that said, I been to many BMWCCA events and HPDE. Never met another M3/M4 owner that actually had the problem. Only known cases are what I have seen on the forums. Even then it is a fraction of a % of S55 powered cars. Heard of more N54 and N55 letting going due to tuning than S55.
Thanks so much.
Appreciate 0
      05-03-2018, 02:02 PM   #6
chris719
Major General
7273
Rep
7,252
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

This problem doesn't seem common at stock S55 power levels. Even tuned it doesn't seem nearly as common as S65 or S85 rod bearing failures.
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2018, 10:22 PM   #7
moonshine89
Second Lieutenant
United_States
151
Rep
269
Posts

Drives: 18 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: United States

iTrader: (1)

Not to blow this out of proportion. But this happened to my 2018 f80 comp dct at 2k miles. There are a handful of other 18 m3/m4s with this issue as well. Agreed majority are tuned, but many are not. When mine got fixed under warranty the engineer assured me the bolt was tight and torqued to spec. He's seen a few sch and the common issue was the friction washer between the hub and timing gear either breaking or simply not gripping enough. My crank hub was completely intact just slipped a little. This resulted in the timing being off. However the repair would've been at least 5k out of pocket if you were tuned.
Appreciate 1
FSociety3810.00
      10-20-2018, 10:27 PM   #8
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

There is a poll on M3/M4 thread, a whopping 4 members reported crank hub issue on stock tune. Have got to be getting close to 100,000 S55 units now produced. In reality it is a fraction of a percent. Not specific to S55 either, N54 and N55 have had it as well.
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2018, 11:54 PM   #9
SSR Performance
SSR Performance's Avatar
United_States
634
Rep
1,029
Posts

Drives: S55 -F80 / N54 -135i / N55-535
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Seen these go on multiple power levels stock - upgraded turbos. Some cars are perfectly fine, some just cant handle. Will be installing the Gintani or Max Psi solutions on our new M2C soon.
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2018, 11:56 PM   #10
M-Pilot
Brigadier General
M-Pilot's Avatar
United_States
4859
Rep
3,659
Posts

Drives: 981 Cayman GTS
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSR Performance View Post
Seen these go on multiple power levels stock - upgraded turbos. Some cars are perfectly fine, some just cant handle. Will be installing the Gintani or Max Psi solutions on our new M2C soon.
Check this out too:

Appreciate 1
FSociety3810.00
      10-21-2018, 09:25 AM   #11
Kuervers
Second Lieutenant
80
Rep
231
Posts

Drives: 19 M2C HS,6sp 16 X5 35i
Join Date: May 2016
Location: lloydminster,ab

iTrader: (0)

Correct me if I was mistaken but was failures much more common on DCT due to agressive shift nature?
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2018, 03:13 PM   #12
FSU_Logan
Lieutenant
281
Rep
496
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2C DCT
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: FL, USA

iTrader: (0)

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1526190
__________________
2019 M2C DCT | Alpine White
Full AA exhaust (catless DP/signature exhaust) | M Performance Coilovers | Need to find some new wheels!
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2018, 04:11 PM   #13
FSociety
IG @bmwF9xG80
FSociety's Avatar
3810
Rep
7,592
Posts

Drives: G80 M3, X4M, G07 X7m50
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NYC to NJ to Orlando FL

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2023 BMW G80 M3  [0.00]
2020 BMW X4MC  [0.00]
16' BMW X4 M40i  [10.00]
06 Cadillac STS  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuervers View Post
Correct me if I was mistaken but was failures much more common on DCT due to agressive shift nature?
And every 6MT who moneyshift will get it too!
The DCT common issue seems to be with kickdown and traction on!

Update:
I know about at least 3 occasions in 6MT spinning the hub due to money shift
__________________
60-130mph 6.5s X4M #HCP
60-130mph 5.0s G80 M3 #OrlandoAutowerks Sauce

IG: @bmwF9XG80


Last edited by FSociety; 10-22-2018 at 06:42 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2018, 12:04 AM   #14
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7178
Rep
7,342
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSociety View Post
And every 6MT who moneyshift will get it too!
The DCT common issue seems to be with kickdown and traction on!
+1
But you'd have to upshift really really hard on a 6mt to get anywhere near the stress of the dct, and even then it wouldn't be close in terms of stress on a 6mt because you can't physically shift fast enough to match the dct.

Also a correct to be made, iirc is that money shifting refers to a downshift into a lower than desired gear causing over revving and valve-piston contact causing a catastrophic damage, and a new engine to be required. Hence the term money shift.
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2018, 04:02 AM   #15
Karmic Man
Lieutenant Colonel
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
1996
Rep
1,759
Posts

Drives: M2C
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
+1
But you'd have to upshift really really hard on a 6mt to get anywhere near the stress of the dct, and even then it wouldn't be close in terms of stress on a 6mt because you can't physically shift fast enough to match the dct.

Also a correct to be made, iirc is that money shifting refers to a downshift into a lower than desired gear causing over revving and valve-piston contact causing a catastrophic damage, and a new engine to be required. Hence the term money shift.
The reason DCT shifts faster is not because we can't manually shift gear faster (I can slam gears between 0.3-0.5s) it's because of the synchromesh in the manual gearbox takes time to do its work as oppose to a DCT where the next gear is already pre-engaged and only the other clutch has to be engaged.

Money shift will destroy your engine regardless of the S55 crank hub issue
Appreciate 2
FSociety3810.00
AndrewC198910903.50
      10-22-2018, 10:11 AM   #16
Proctor750
Lieutenant
426
Rep
538
Posts

Drives: E30 M3
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hattie B's

iTrader: (0)

My s14 has no such issue.. BMW actually went with the 4 because of the short crank, they were having issues destroying them in the 6's they tried previously.

As for "the bolt is a fuse" comment. If this is indeed the case - why have they not given it a service life range?

They even suggest "change the bolt every year or every xxxxx miles/km."

So is this official? Change it every year? That's the service life? Surely there are several high mileage S55 out there by now - all of which on the original bolt...

This didn't sound very scientific.
Appreciate 1
FSociety3810.00
      10-22-2018, 10:20 AM   #17
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7178
Rep
7,342
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The reason DCT shifts faster is not because we can't manually shift gear faster (I can slam gears between 0.3-0.5s) it's because of the synchromesh in the manual gearbox takes time to do its work as oppose to a DCT where the next gear is already pre-engaged and only the other clutch has to be engaged.

Money shift will destroy your engine regardless of the S55 crank hub issue
+1
But the dct still does shift significantly faster, and because the faster the shift the larger the torque placed on the hub because the engine slows down faster which makes it easier to spin, hence the issue is less common on manuals.
Appreciate 1
Karmic Man1996.00
      10-22-2018, 10:41 PM   #18
moonshine89
Second Lieutenant
United_States
151
Rep
269
Posts

Drives: 18 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: United States

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The reason DCT shifts faster is not because we can't manually shift gear faster (I can slam gears between 0.3-0.5s) it's because of the synchromesh in the manual gearbox takes time to do its work as oppose to a DCT where the next gear is already pre-engaged and only the other clutch has to be engaged.

Money shift will destroy your engine regardless of the S55 crank hub issue
+1
But the dct still does shift significantly faster, and because the faster the shift the larger the torque placed on the hub because the engine slows down faster which makes it easier to spin, hence the issue is less common on manuals.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on the m3/m4 forums. For those of you lucky enough to get an m2c--you'll now have to familiarize yourself with the possibility of a spun crank hub.

The leading thought to why there are more dct sch than manuals is simply because there are significantly more DCTs than MT produced.

As for the "fuse" explanation. General consensus is that's also BS. Plenty of m motors with a keyed or fixed timing sprocket (not a crank hub attached with a friction washer) that have not exploded and are just as complex to "time/adjust".

Kickdown has been reported to be an issue as well. However many sch have occurred without aggressive shifts or Kickdowns. Mine occcured when I was coming to a stop and the dct s3 setting automatically down shifted from 2 to 1 (didn't redline, just standard downshift Rev matching). Maybe my spirited driving prior to coming to a stop spun it and then the stop pushed it over the edge?

I think I read somewhere that the sensor for the hub is extremely sensitive which is why we're not seeing too many instances of catastrophic engine damage?

Again tuned cars seem to be more problematic. Possibly related to proportionately high low end torque? Many say this is blown out of proportion and I suppose if you crunch the numbers, it's pretty miniscule. Not like rod bearings which is more of an eventuality. The sch in s55 truly seems to be bad luck. However if you're tuned and you go in with an sch, you're more than likely screwed in regards to warranty. An sch at minimum requires significant disassembly and if the dealership is doing it--you better believe it's gonna be expensive. If the sch does MORE damage than just the timing being off, you're looking at a new engine (although this seems to be rare).

The worst part of it all, I had to drive a loaner for 3.5 weeks! Last thing I want to do is drive a non M car everyday!

Lastly, the M2C is magnificent! I still don't like the rear fascia/trunk lid and lack of 4 doors (i have 2 kids). An S55 in that small of frame seems insane!
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2018, 01:39 AM   #19
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7178
Rep
7,342
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine89 View Post
This has been discussed ad nauseum on the m3/m4 forums. For those of you lucky enough to get an m2c--you'll now have to familiarize yourself with the possibility of a spun crank hub.

The leading thought to why there are more dct sch than manuals is simply because there are significantly more DCTs than MT produced.

As for the "fuse" explanation. General consensus is that's also BS. Plenty of m motors with a keyed or fixed timing sprocket (not a crank hub attached with a friction washer) that have not exploded and are just as complex to "time/adjust".

Kickdown has been reported to be an issue as well. However many sch have occurred without aggressive shifts or Kickdowns. Mine occcured when I was coming to a stop and the dct s3 setting automatically down shifted from 2 to 1 (didn't redline, just standard downshift Rev matching). Maybe my spirited driving prior to coming to a stop spun it and then the stop pushed it over the edge?

I think I read somewhere that the sensor for the hub is extremely sensitive which is why we're not seeing too many instances of catastrophic engine damage?

Again tuned cars seem to be more problematic. Possibly related to proportionately high low end torque? Many say this is blown out of proportion and I suppose if you crunch the numbers, it's pretty miniscule. Not like rod bearings which is more of an eventuality. The sch in s55 truly seems to be bad luck. However if you're tuned and you go in with an sch, you're more than likely screwed in regards to warranty. An sch at minimum requires significant disassembly and if the dealership is doing it--you better believe it's gonna be expensive. If the sch does MORE damage than just the timing being off, you're looking at a new engine (although this seems to be rare).

The worst part of it all, I had to drive a loaner for 3.5 weeks! Last thing I want to do is drive a non M car everyday!

Lastly, the M2C is magnificent! I still don't like the rear fascia/trunk lid and lack of 4 doors (i have 2 kids). An S55 in that small of frame seems insane!
Yeah that's really scary since I track my car and shift/drive super agressively. I hope the VTT solution is good because I'll probably go that route for peace of mind. So that means crank hub capture (apparently that's what VTT says mostly happens when the hub slips is that the bolt backs out) first and maybe down the line the VTT hub itself. I'm not looking forward to this as it's super expensive lol.... I may get a forged motor + high flow heads along with it but we'll have to see, maybe when the motor has a bunch of km's on it then I'll build it otherwise no need at ~500whp.
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2018, 01:44 AM   #20
Davil
Brigadier General
Davil's Avatar
Australia
6334
Rep
3,027
Posts

Drives: M2 CS, 18 Vantage AMR, 00 WRX
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The reason DCT shifts faster is not because we can't manually shift gear faster (I can slam gears between 0.3-0.5s) it's because of the synchromesh in the manual gearbox takes time to do its work as oppose to a DCT where the next gear is already pre-engaged and only the other clutch has to be engaged.

Money shift will destroy your engine regardless of the S55 crank hub issue
M2 DCT Software is revised and shifts have no “slam” compared to previous models at full tilt. Part of a bigger picture? Who knows.
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2018, 09:26 AM   #21
Proctor750
Lieutenant
426
Rep
538
Posts

Drives: E30 M3
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hattie B's

iTrader: (0)

Hang on, is the bolt "dissolving" or backing out? Which is it?

If it "dissolves" couldn't someone source a stronger bolt?

If it backs out - can't you add 272, increase torque and safety wire?

I simply want to understand what is happening and if the bolt is the culprit.
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2018, 10:30 AM   #22
Karmic Man
Lieutenant Colonel
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
1996
Rep
1,759
Posts

Drives: M2C
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
M2 DCT Software is revised and shifts have no “slam” compared to previous models at full tilt. Part of a bigger picture? Who knows.
Nice call on this one, could well be the case...
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST