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      02-14-2019, 02:03 PM   #1
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X3/X4M vs Stelvio Quad, by the numbers

assuming the weight listed at 4620 is incorrect (has to be right?)

DIN listing for the X3M is 1970KG which = 4343 lbs

X3M/X4M with comp

4343 lbs
503 HP
442 torque
8 speed auto

price around $84,000 US with options (figure $70K plus $7K comp and that allows another $7K for options like exec package)

Alfa Stelvio Quad

4340 lbs
505 HP
443 torque
8 speed auto

price around $84,000 fully loaded


Now if the weight really is on par with the Stelvio (lets just hope for under 4400 lbs) that means performance wise it SHOULD be about equal.
C&D tested the Stelvio 0-60 at 3.3 seconds and it had impressive 30-50/50-70 times as well (2.4/2.6). By comparison they tested the M3 (non comp) at 3.9 0-60 and 30-50/50-70 at 2.3/2.8 seconds, which really shows you the extra power and AWD really just helps at launch and get the heavier SUVs to compete on par with a M3 while already driving.

now if all this is correct (can't wait for some road tests on the X3M) for the same price I would take the X3/X4M anyday over the Stelvio just because of the interior build quality and infotainment systems.
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      02-15-2019, 11:35 AM   #2
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The X3M just can't weigh more than 4400 lbs. Any more would be absurd but we'll see. Personally I expect to spec a comp model at $80k to include exec pack, paint ($550), and black/beige seat upgrade ($600? if we can calculate from German price brochure). Don't need the nanny tech and HK stereo already included.

I like the Stelvio Quad but don't want to deal with Alfa peculiarities and poor reliability even under warranty.
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      02-15-2019, 12:40 PM   #3
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I think you are forgetting that throttle mapping and gear ratios make a pretty big difference.

Two cars can weigh exactly the same and have identical HP/TQ ratios and even both be 8 speed autos, but if the gear ratios, transmission mapping, and throttle mapping are different, they could have different results.

Not to mention type and size of tires for initial grip matter too. We need more data before we make a conclusion that their performance should be the same or equal.
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      03-04-2019, 08:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
I think you are forgetting that throttle mapping and gear ratios make a pretty big difference.

Two cars can weigh exactly the same and have identical HP/TQ ratios and even both be 8 speed autos, but if the gear ratios, transmission mapping, and throttle mapping are different, they could have different results.

Not to mention type and size of tires for initial grip matter too. We need more data before we make a conclusion that their performance should be the same or equal.
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      03-06-2019, 11:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
The X3M just can't weigh more than 4400 lbs. Any more would be absurd but we'll see. Personally I expect to spec a comp model at $80k to include exec pack, paint ($550), and black/beige seat upgrade ($600? if we can calculate from German price brochure). Don't need the nanny tech and HK stereo already included.

I like the Stelvio Quad but don't want to deal with Alfa peculiarities and poor reliability even under warranty.
Had a 2015 M3 for two years, now have had a Giulia Quadrifoglio for over 25 months, recently added a Stelvio Ti Sport a month ago, and a Stelvio Quadrifoglio yesterday. Obviously, can’t make a comment about the Stelvio’s long-term reliability yet, but can say that my Giulia Quadrifoglio has only visited the dealer twice and for just two oil changes. Sadly, my M3 needed to visit the dealer 5-6 times for unscheduled service visits (mechanical & electrical) over only 24 months. My Alfa has only needed 2 software updates (performed while in for oil changs) vs like 4-5 for the M3 during the same length of ownership.

Contrary to popular belief, especially on these Bimmerpost Forums, my own actual experience and that of several Giulia Quadrifoglio owning friends, who also came from M3s, have actually found their Alfas to have been more reliable/trouble-free than their now departed M3s. Would have never expected it going into ownership based on Alfa’s prior reputation, but that’s our experience...albeit from a small sample size.

In a nutshell, don’t prejudge a book by a few vocal complaints...some of which are not even true. Have seen lots of FUD spread on forums like this one, but glad I took a chance instead of listening to heresay. People should buy what appeals to them most, but if you’re not including the Alfa in the conversation at purchase time, you’re really missing out, trust me. And that is being said after owning 20+ higher spec German cars in a row. Lastly, I just paid $67k for my new Stelvio Quadrifoglio and $42k for my loaded Stelvio Ti Sport. The value proposition is absolutely outstanding. Pity more people aren’t willing to take a chance on Alfa, because the current deals on MY2018 Alfas is unheard of, as in 20% discount on the Stelvio Ti Sport and 25% discount on my Stelvio Quadrifoglio, and currently debating adding a fully-loaded 4C for 33% off MSRP.

Last edited by mcc3456; 03-21-2019 at 09:06 AM..
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      03-07-2019, 07:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcc3456 View Post
Had a 2015 M3 for two years, now have had a Giulia Quadrifoglio for over 25 months, recently added a Stelvio Ti Sport a month ago, and a Stelvio Quadrifoglio yesterday. Obviously, can’t make a comment about the Stelvio’s long-term reliability yet, but can say that my Giulia Quadrifoglio has only visited the dealer twice and for just two oil changes. Sadly, my M3 needed to visit the dealer 5-6 times for unscheduled service visits (mechanical & electrical) over only 24 months. My Alfa has only needed 2 software updates (performed while in for oil changs) vs like 4-5 for the M3 during the same length of ownership.

Contrary to popular belief, especially on these Bimmerpost Forums, my own actual experience and that of several Giulia Quadrifoglio owning friends, who also came from M3s, have actually found their Alfas to have been more reliable/trouble-free than their now departed M3s. Would have never expected it going into ownership based on Alfa’s prior reputation, but that’s our experience...albeit from a small sample size.

In a nutshell, don’t prejudge a book by a few vocal complaints...some of which are not even true. Have seen lots of FUD spread on forums like this one, but glad I took a chance instead of listening to heresay. People should buy what appeals to them most, but if you’re not including the Alfa in the conversation at purchase time, you’re really missing out, trust me. And that is being said after owning 20+ higher spec German cars in a row. Lastly, I just paid $67k for my new Stelvio Quadrifoglio and $42k for my loaded Stelvio Ti Sport. The value proposition is absolutely outstanding. Pity more people aren’t willing to take a chance on Alfa, because the current deals on MY2018 Alfas is unheard of, as in 20% discount on the Stelvio Ti Sport and 25% discount on my Stelvio Quadrifoglio.

Perception take a long time to change
It takes Lexus over 20-years to finally earn it's respect, so Alfa better be patient and keeps building solid cars or that perception will turn to reality
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      03-07-2019, 10:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPIA4v2 View Post
Perception take a long time to change
It takes Lexus over 20-years to finally earn it's respect, so Alfa better be patient and keeps building solid cars or that perception will turn to reality
Truth, my brother! In the meantime, people are crazy for not exploiting the discrepancy in perception/reality. The deals are unreal right now for very good vehicles. I've owned 4 Porsches, 4 AMGs, 2 Ms, 3 Mercedes, 2 Audis, 3 BMWs, 1 VW, etc...and the Alfas are the most fun driving yet.

If you haven't driven a Quadrifoglio (Giulia or Stelvio) for an extended test drive (more than a 4 mile beat) then try one out. It is a hell of car. Sort of like merging an M3 with an RS5 taking the best attributes from each...except for the infotainment, but even there, I actually prefer simplicity to complexity because cars are like...for driving!

The Alfa Stelvio Quadrifoglio vs. BMW X3M vs. AMG GLC63 vs. Jaguar F Pace SVR vs. Porsche Macan Turbo Performance Pack comparison tests are going to be epic. Great time to be alive!
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      03-07-2019, 06:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcc3456 View Post
Truth, my brother! In the meantime, people are crazy for not exploiting the discrepancy in perception/reality. The deals are unreal right now for very good vehicles. I've owned 4 Porsches, 4 AMGs, 2 Ms, 3 Mercedes, 2 Audis, 3 BMWs, 1 VW, etc...and the Alfas are the most fun driving yet.

If you haven't driven a Quadrifoglio (Giulia or Stelvio) for an extended test drive (more than a 4 mile beat) then try one out. It is a hell of car. Sort of like merging an M3 with an RS5 taking the best attributes from each...except for the infotainment, but even there, I actually prefer simplicity to complexity because cars are like...for driving!

The Alfa Stelvio Quadrifoglio vs. BMW X3M vs. AMG GLC63 vs. Jaguar F Pace SVR vs. Porsche Macan Turbo Performance Pack comparison tests are going to be epic. Great time to be alive!
Thanks for sharing your experience with this excellent line-up of performance SUV/SAVs, mcc3456 - always helps to hear from those with some miles in the vehicles and not just reviews or some potentially slanted views from Forum issues.

With that said, though, I would respectfully continue to maintain that for those of us who need the cargo volume, only the F-Pace SVR is a contender to the X3M in your grouping. If you had written X4M instead, well, that would be a comparison. But the AS Quad, GLC, Macan will never enter into the equation for those of us needing/desiring these performance SUVs for their interior hauling capacity. We really only have the SVR for a true apples-apples performance and cargo hauling comparison. The Cayenne and X5M enter the next size realm, so for us, it really is just the X3M or SVR.
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      03-07-2019, 08:32 PM   #9
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Max well can you post the cargo space areas with all rear seats down up to the drivers seat. I currently have a 2008 X5 4.8i and I am looking to upgrade soon. I must have the cargo space to keep two medium dog crates in on rare occasions but always need at least one dog crate to fit since this will be my new dog hauler. I am looking at the X3m, Glc 63, f pace svr because I love the performance and smaller nimble size if the dog crates will fit. Worse case I will settle for less performance and look at the 2020 Gle 450 or 2019 50i X5 if two dog crates won't work in the smaller performance suvs.
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      03-07-2019, 09:49 PM   #10
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Wow, Alfa Stelvio Quad is listing for 10% off sticker before even negotiating.

I have a feeling next winter the Jaguar F Pace SVR will be similar, because loaded these are about $4,000 more than the X3M Comp will be.
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      03-08-2019, 07:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Wow, Alfa Stelvio Quad is listing for 10% off sticker before even negotiating.

I have a feeling next winter the Jaguar F Pace SVR will be similar, because loaded these are about $4,000 more than the X3M Comp will be.
Jaguars in general have a very similar road feel to the Alfas. Unfortunately, getting a really steep discount on any Jaguar is never easy, for whatever reason. They are both great brands if you prefer to not have the same thing as everybody else...which makes owning them kind of special. I think the X3M will be pretty awesome, but in regards to the comment above about cargo space, the X3M is a smidge larger. My GF has a last gen X3 which is about the same as the Stelvio, whereas the new X3 is slightly larger. Unless you are carrying an oversized something regularly where a few inches really matters, like a hard dog crate, I don’t think an inch here or there would matter too much for most people. Case in in point, a Stelvio is cavernous compared to a Macan, but for most people’s actual needs, the Macan might suffice just fine.

In my case, I threw a set of 255/45/20 snow tires in the back of my GF’s X3, but at the last minute she could not follow me to the garage, so I tossed them into the back of the Stelvio no problem. Was it a bit tighter, yes, slightly, but they still fit with some some room to spare...and to put it into perspective, those are damn wide tires. That is the largest thing I need to haul twice a year, so the Stelvio works perfectly for me, and I definitely wouldn’t swap it for a regular X3 30 based on driving dynamics alone, which is way more important to me.

However, if one is hauling dog crate regularly, so something that absolutely has to fit, before going by cargo stats alone, one should check to make sure that the actually item fits in whatever vehicle that is chosen, because every SUV in the segment has “different” dimensions...even if on paper the total volume is the same. Sometimes a vehicle with overall less cargo volume might fit something a statistically larger vehicle might not. Take it from me based on owning a Porsche Cayenne at one point, and also cross shopping an X5 when buying a 2011 X3. Better to be precise than sorry later once you already have the vehicle in your garage.
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      03-08-2019, 07:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Np2014 View Post
Max well can you post the cargo space areas with all rear seats down up to the drivers seat. I currently have a 2008 X5 4.8i and I am looking to upgrade soon. I must have the cargo space to keep two medium dog crates in on rare occasions but always need at least one dog crate to fit since this will be my new dog hauler. I am looking at the X3m, Glc 63, f pace svr because I love the performance and smaller nimble size if the dog crates will fit. Worse case I will settle for less performance and look at the 2020 Gle 450 or 2019 50i X5 if two dog crates won't work in the smaller performance suvs.
The older X5 is kind of funny in that it is rather wide compared to an X3, but also shorter due to the higher floor. I looked at one back in the day, but actually found the X3 to be larger in other ways. You should just take your dog crates to the dealership to try their fit in whatever you buy. Total cargo volume figures don’t mean a hell of a lot from my experience because the actual dimensions are all so different. Super long and deep doesn’t help much you really just need width.
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      03-08-2019, 07:46 AM   #13
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Mcc I agree 100% I just didn't know if the glc 63 and x3m will have the exact same cargo space layouts/space as the normal versions of the x3 and glc 300. Also price wise what kind of % off msrp can I expect on an ordered x3m? I got a fantastic deal on my M4 when it first came out but that sales advisor retired.
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      03-08-2019, 07:55 AM   #14
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Super long and deep doesn’t help much you really just need width.
Story of my life...
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      03-08-2019, 08:29 AM   #15
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Mcc I agree 100% I just didn't know if the glc 63 and x3m will have the exact same cargo space layouts/space as the normal versions of the x3 and glc 300. Also price wise what kind of % off msrp can I expect on an ordered x3m? I got a fantastic deal on my M4 when it first came out but that sales advisor retired.
Yup, sedan/coupe are hard sells nowadays, someone was getting $20K off on M3CS recently. I've got $9K off on M3 last year
Also BMWNA is pushing back on dealer as far as bonuses tier (in short, very hard for CA to get bonus). My CA also retired right before I bought my M3. Now with "gag" order good luck finding info on anything in the forums; like "trunk-money", base MF, special interest rate, incentives etc etc etc

But my feeling is X3M/X4M initially would command MSRP, then discounted. Unless BMWNA control production limit etc ala M2
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      03-08-2019, 08:31 AM   #16
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Story of my life...
I had added: “Ask any woman” to the end of my post before erasing it...you know, being international woman’s day and all.
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      03-08-2019, 08:34 AM   #17
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Mcc I agree 100% I just didn't know if the glc 63 and x3m will have the exact same cargo space layouts/space as the normal versions of the x3 and glc 300. Also price wise what kind of % off msrp can I expect on an ordered x3m? I got a fantastic deal on my M4 when it first came out but that sales advisor retired.
I would not expect a very good discount on a newly released X3M. I suspect demand will outstrip supply for at least 4-6 months...and then factor in that dealers are complete price-gouging whores, sooo...
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      03-09-2019, 06:11 AM   #18
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now waiting july to have the 1st media's review and Nürburgring laptime. We will see if the BMW M CEO speech of last year will be respected and if the cars set a new benchmark in that segment. But with the official figures they gave, I wonder how it will set a new benchmark.
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      03-09-2019, 09:49 AM   #19
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now waiting july to have the 1st media's review and Nürburgring laptime. We will see if the BMW M CEO speech of last year will be respected and if the cars set a new benchmark in that segment. But with the official figures they gave, I wonder how it will set a new benchmark.
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      03-09-2019, 01:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SANK_CH View Post
Now waiting July to have the 1st media's review and Nürburgring laptime. We will see if the BMW M CEO speech of last year will be respected and if the cars set a new benchmark in that segment. But with the official figures they gave, I wonder how it will set a new benchmark.
If the numbers we've seen aren't smokescreen, the laws of Physics would seem to agree with you, SANK_CH, at least for the Ring times. They've got some wiggle room based on how one defines 'segment' and to what they are applying the term 'benchmark' (skid pad, brake distance, 0-60, qtr mile, lap time... or a global combined rating), but with a Wt/HP ratio for the X3M Comp at 9.18, compared to the SVR at 7.99, Stelvio Quad at 8.51, Levante Trofeo at 8.11 (and GTS at 8.70), and the GLC 63S 8.85, seems it'll be a tough competition to win with currently released numbers.

If the HP is underrated and actually closer to 525, however, and if they subtract 125 lbs (without a moon roof and rails) so Wt/HP is closer to 8.56, it would make for a more interesting challenge. Not that it will alter our X3M comp order one way or the other, but am curious to see how it pans out.
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      03-09-2019, 02:29 PM   #21
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There is just no way that the X3M is going to weigh 4600 lbs as the current information would have it. That's heavier by a significant margin than everything else in this segment. It just has to be in 4400 range which certainly changes the weight:HP ratio.
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      03-09-2019, 04:09 PM   #22
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There is just no way that the X3M is going to weigh 4600 lbs as the current information would have it. That's heavier by a significant margin than everything else in this segment. ...
I agree, which is one reason I haven't posted an updated Performance spreadsheet yet. I entered the data on day of release but it just doesn't make sense for a Mnfr which prides itself on efficiency of design and use of light weight materials to present those numbers. I also researched the weight differences one might expect with a 6 vs a V8 - seems about 100-150 lbs difference in same model line-ups (but defer to those with more knowledge). Most of the other models are 8's, so that can't account for the apparent discrepancy. And if anything, for 'performance' models one would expect lighter weight components...
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